Fire alex cora

[Kimmi]

Tito is #1.

There can be a debate about #2. But number 1 is locked.

 

Bingo.

 

Cora arguably had the best Red Sox season in history, but one season does not make anyone the greatest manager ever.

 

That said, I am against firing Cora.

[Elktonnick]

If management brings in desperate Dave and gives him the keys to the Bugatti and says win at all cost, shouldn’t the draining of the farm system be considered as a logical step in the win at all cost marching orders?

 

From what I have read and heard, that's not why DD got fired ie draining the farm nor rest gate. DD got fired over how he isolated himself from the rest of his senior FO staff. It was his leadership style.

[Kimmi]

Training camp next year will be run differently . Pick whatever reason suits you , but things will not be done the same way again .

 

Yes, things will be different next year. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the way they were done this year were wrong.

[Kimmi]

From what I have read and heard, that's not why DD got fired ie draining the farm nor rest gate. DD got fired over how he isolated himself from the rest of his senior FO staff. It was his leadership style.

 

I have been reading more and more about Dombrowski's management style, going back to his days in Detroit. He apparently doesn't foster a team culture in the FO.

[Elktonnick]

I have been reading more and more about Dombrowski's management style, going back to his days in Detroit. He apparently doesn't foster a team culture in the FO.

 

We are on the same page.

[moonslav59]

We are on the same page.

 

It appears DD & Henry were not.

[a700hitter]

It's obvious I was saying the conclusions are conjecture, and for you to pretend otherwise is very telling.

 

I didn't say otherwise. I just stated the facst that aren't conjecture.

[a700hitter]

Yes, things will be different next year. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the way they were done this year were wrong.

I think that many inside and outside of the organization have the opinion that it was a bad approach.

[moonslav59]

I think that many inside and outside of the organization have the opinion that it was a bad approach.

 

That often happens with false equivalencies.

[moonslav59]

I didn't say otherwise. I just stated the facst that aren't conjecture.

 

It's conjecture to link a tiny bit of extra rest to poor April results.

 

It's conjecture to to think restgate had nothing to do with our poor April results.

[a700hitter]

That often happens with false equivalencies.

So, anyone, including Jerry Remy and Eckersley, who have an opinion that is different from yours is engaging in a false equivalency, which this is not. That's a bit obnoxious.

[a700hitter]

It's conjecture to link a tiny bit of extra rest to poor April results.

 

It's conjecture to to think restgate had nothing to do with our poor April results.

The entire team hitters and pitchers were backed off work in Spring Training. I agree with the NESN people about the results. Tweet Remy that he is wrong.

[a700hitter]

i think there is a misunderstanding about my issue with spring training. the problem for me wasnt so much the physical approach to ST but the mental approach and the perception it gave to the players.

at some point i am sure i said that perhaps the Sox pitchers got injured due to improper Spring Training work. who knows. i really dont care about the injuries so much as i care about the approach to the season. the tone was set early for this team to just coast. and that is exactly what they have done. IMO.

I agree with this.

[a700hitter]

Also, I don't draw a different conclusion on all this. I draw no conclusions. It very well might have made a difference. It very well might not have. The conclusions are total conjecture.

 

I have gotten use to you disagreeing just to disagree with my opinion.

[moonslav59]

The entire team hitters and pitchers were backed off work in Spring Training. I agree with the NESN people about the results. Tweet Remy that he is wrong.

 

1) It wasn't the entire team. 4 of our top 9 batters had more ABs this year than last.

 

2) A couple starters had more IP.

 

3) So, you agree with the NESN clowns, but that doesn't make it anything more than conjecture.

 

[moonslav59]

So, anyone, including Jerry Remy and Eckersley, who have an opinion that is different from yours is engaging in a false equivalency, which this is not. That's a bit obnoxious.

 

I didn't claim this case was an example of false equivalency. I merely pointed out the nature of such happenings and implied this might be such a case.

[Larry Cook]

I have been reading more and more about Dombrowski's management style, going back to his days in Detroit. He apparently doesn't foster a team culture in the FO.

 

So let me see if I have this straight, desperate Dave has the team finishing in first place three years in a row. He brings home a coveted ring! Duck boats and celebrating every where!

 

Yet Henry fires him because the front office is not huddled around in a circle singing Kume-bye-ya together????

 

Also Where was Henry when the brightest and best minds in our baseball operations department were packing up their desks and heading out of town on a rail a few years ago????

[a700hitter]

1) It wasn't the entire team. 4 of our top 9 batters had more ABs this year than last.

 

2) A couple starters had more IP.

 

3) So, you agree with the NESN clowns, but that doesn't make it anything more than conjecture.

 

Most opinions are conjecture, and I don't think Remy and Eck are clowns. They are also privy to seeing how the camp was run differently this year. They saw a significant difference. It was probably more than just ABs and IP differences that they observed. Neither of us are in a position to challenge their opinion on this issue.

[moonslav59]

I have gotten use to you disagreeing just to disagree with my opinion.

 

For a lawyer, you really misinterpret a lot.

 

I have said over and over, I have no position on this debate, except that I think it's all conjecture and maybe pointless.

 

There's no way we'll ever know what the tiny bit of extra rest for most not all of our players unleashed. For all we know, we might have done worse or seen more injuries had we played them more often.

 

Pointing out factual mistakes in your argument happens so often, because you make more mistakes than others. Using terms like "the entire team" may just be hyperbole or "alternative facts," but it's not true.

[moonslav59]

Most opinions are conjecture, and I don't think Remy and Eck are clowns. They are also privy to seeing how the camp was run differently this year. They saw a significant difference. It was probably more than just ABs and IP differences that they observed. Neither of us are in a position to challenge their opinion on this issue.

 

LMAO- literally!

[a700hitter]

For a lawyer, you really misinterpret a lot.

 

I have said over and over, I have no position on this debate, except that I think it's all conjecture and maybe pointless.

 

There's no way we'll ever know what the tiny bit of extra rest for most not all of our players unleashed. For all we know, we might have done worse or seen more injuries had we played them more often.

 

Pointing out factual mistakes in your argument happens so often, because you make more mistakes than others. Using terms like "the entire team" may just be hyperbole or "alternative facts," but it's not true.

You are a bigger jerkoff tonight than usual.

[Bellhorn04]

Most opinions are conjecture, and I don't think Remy and Eck are clowns. They are also privy to seeing how the camp was run differently this year. They saw a significant difference. It was probably more than just ABs and IP differences that they observed. Neither of us are in a position to challenge their opinion on this issue.

 

I don't think Remy and Eck are clowns either. I respect their opinions. I don't doubt that they saw some things this spring that didn't look right to them. And then the early results obviously tended to support the position that those things were a mistake.

 

Now Remy and Eck played ball in the 70's and 80's and I think they probably have a lot of old school in their thinking.

 

I wonder if they were also skeptical about Cora's 'rest philosophy' in 2018.

 

Bottom line, I would love to talk to these two further about the whole thing, and about Cora as a manager. I wish we could get them on here, seriously. Not happening of course.

 

I suspect that in spite of their issues with spring training, neither would be in favor of firing Cora. But I can't say for sure.

[moonslav59]

I don't think Remy and Eck are clowns either. I respect their opinions. I don't doubt that they saw some things this spring that didn't look right to them. And then the early results obviously tended to support the position that those things were a mistake.

 

Now Remy and Eck played ball in the 70's and 80's and I think they probably have a lot of old school in their thinking.

 

I wonder if they were also skeptical about Cora's 'rest philosophy' in 2018.

 

Bottom line, I would love to talk to these two further about the whole thing, and about Cora as a manager. I wish we could get them on here, seriously. Not happening of course.

 

I suspect that in spite of their issues with spring training, neither would be in favor of firing Cora. But I can't say for sure.

 

Sox managers have been using some form of extra rest or scheduled rest days off for a long time. One could argue it sucks, but one could argue it has worked (4 rings).

 

It's all conjecture.

 

As for Remy and Eck being "clowns," I like Eck most of the time, but he certainly has some weird positions and has made clownish statements, like the "...rising fastball..."

 

Remy is a cool guy, but to me, he's lost it and become a cult of himself. I think he tries to be funny, too much. That's why I referenced "clown" with him.

 

They both make some great insights, and calling them "clowns" instead of saying they act like clowns, at times, was wrong.

[a700hitter]

I suspect that in spite of their issues with spring training, neither would be in favor of firing Cora. But I can't say for sure.

I am just guessing, but I don’t think Remy would think firing Cora after a bad season would be less justified than when they fired Orsillo after a bad season. LOL! Who knows why any owners make certain moves.

[notin]

I am just guessing, but I don’t think Remy would think firing Cora after a bad season would be less justified than when they fired Orsillo after a bad season. LOL! Who knows why any owners make certain moves.

 

I would think Cora's future is going to be heavily influenced by whoever the new GM turns out to be...

[a700hitter]

I would think Cora's future is going to be heavily influenced by whoever the new GM turns out to be...

Maybe, or maybe the owners are just waiting for the season to end to clear the decks of Cora and/or the coaching staff.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sox managers have been using some form of extra rest or scheduled rest days off for a long time. One could argue it sucks, but one could argue it has worked (4 rings).

 

It's all conjecture.

 

As for Remy and Eck being "clowns," I like Eck most of the time, but he certainly has some weird positions and has made clownish statements, like the "...rising fastball..."

 

Remy is a cool guy, but to me, he's lost it and become a cult of himself. I think he tries to be funny, too much. That's why I referenced "clown" with him.

 

They both make some great insights, and calling them "clowns" instead of saying they act like clowns, at times, was wrong.

 

I can say from personal experience that I know what he is talking about with a rising fastball. We had a kid on our AAU squad who ended up being the ace at Hartford U for 4 years. The kid threw hard as a 16 yr old (85mph) and when you faced him, his ball seemed to rise. I saw it a few more times later in my career, but I distinctly remember facing his and wondering what the hell he was throwing. He was a small kid but had an incredible arm and actually generated a significant amount of spin on his fastball. This spin kept the ball from falling as much as one would expect and created an optical illusion for the hitter who's eyes expected the ball to fall further. It looked like it was rising

[a700hitter]

I can say from personal experience that I know what he is talking about with a rising fastball. We had a kid on our AAU squad who ended up being the ace at Hartford U for 4 years. The kid threw hard as a 16 yr old (85mph) and when you faced him, his ball seemed to rise. I saw it a few more times later in my career, but I distinctly remember facing his and wondering what the hell he was throwing. He was a small kid but had an incredible arm and actually generated a significant amount of spin on his fastball. This spin kept the ball from falling as much as one would expect and created an optical illusion for the hitter who's eyes expected the ball to fall further. It looked like it was rising

Careful, you may be venturing into “clown” territory.

[notin]

I can say from personal experience that I know what he is talking about with a rising fastball. We had a kid on our AAU squad who ended up being the ace at Hartford U for 4 years. The kid threw hard as a 16 yr old (85mph) and when you faced him, his ball seemed to rise. I saw it a few more times later in my career, but I distinctly remember facing his and wondering what the hell he was throwing. He was a small kid but had an incredible arm and actually generated a significant amount of spin on his fastball. This spin kept the ball from falling as much as one would expect and created an optical illusion for the hitter who's eyes expected the ball to fall further. It looked like it was rising

 

Fastballs don't rise. But they can stay flat in lieu of the anticipated downward angle. And at 90mph or so, it just isn't where the hitter thinks it will be and gives the appearance that it rose.

[notin]

Maybe, or maybe the owners are just waiting for the season to end to clear the decks of Cora and/or the coaching staff.

 

Very possible. Although anyone who takes over as President or GM or both will probably have some degree of autonomy...