Fire alex cora

[Elktonnick]

Nope, how they handle Spring Training next year won't prove a thing.

 

How they handled Sale, Price and Porcello this year was strictly because of their 2018 postseason workloads.

 

Obviously not an issue for next Spring Training.

 

The bottom line is no professional baseball coach analyst or former player not connected to the Red Sox has spoken in favor of last years approach toward Spring Training. John Smoltz Alex Rodriguez Jim Bowden, Jim Duquette, Steve Philips Peter Gammons even Dennis Eckersley and Jerry Remy all have said that they believed the Red Sox ST regime had an adverse effect on the team's performance early in the year. You can steadfastly adhere to your premise but I don't know of anyone who comments on the game in a professional capacity who would agree with it.

[Elktonnick]

It may have been a mistake. But it doesn't explain why Porcello has pitched badly all season long. It doesn't account for injuries to Sale, Price and Eovaldi (all who have had recent injury issues coming into this year), or the flops of Johnson, Velazquez and Cashner, or the lack of any MLB ready starters in the minors.

 

I just think it's blown way out of proportion.

 

You continue to distort the argument. It isn't about how they performed later in the year but rather the failure to properly prepare in Spring Training meant the team, especially the starters, weren't ready for the early games in April. This bad start distorted the entire approach toward the whole pitching staff and needlessly taxed the bullpen early in the year. Cora and or DD's idiotic approach toward ST caused the team to dig itself a hole it never got out of

[notin]

It may have been a mistake. But it doesn't explain why Porcello has pitched badly all season long. It doesn't account for injuries to Sale, Price and Eovaldi (all who have had recent injury issues coming into this year), or the flops of Johnson, Velazquez and Cashner, or the lack of any MLB ready starters in the minors.

 

I just think it's blown way out of proportion.

 

If there is truth to the Manfred Missile, doesn’t it seem like pitchers who rely heavily on the 2 seamer like Porcello would be most adversely effected?

[Larry Cook]

You continue to distort the argument. It isn't about how they performed later in the year but rather the failure to properly prepare in Spring Training meant the team, especially the starters, weren't ready for the early games in April. This bad start distorted the entire approach toward the whole pitching staff and needlessly taxed the bullpen early in the year. Cora and or DD's idiotic approach toward ST caused the team to dig itself a hole it never got out of

 

I agree 100 percent. By the end of April, the bullpen was taxed and the starters still struggling. Everything snowballed from there and we did not recover at all this year.

 

In spring training 2020, Cora will be dealing with several rehabbing starters. Not sure what we are going to learn except whether or not we have the depth at starter to overcome that situation.

[sk7326]

The bottom line is no professional baseball coach analyst or former player not connected to the Red Sox has spoken in favor of last years approach toward Spring Training. John Smoltz Alex Rodriguez Jim Bowden, Jim Duquette, Steve Philips Peter Gammons even Dennis Eckersley and Jerry Remy all have said that they believed the Red Sox ST regime had an adverse effect on the team's performance early in the year. You can steadfastly adhere to your premise but I don't know of anyone who comments on the game in a professional capacity who would agree with it.

 

Decisions like that are done at the organizational level. So Dombrowski has to get some credit for that move - possibly a majority of it.

[Larry Cook]

Decisions like that are done at the organizational level. So Dombrowski has to get some credit for that move - possibly a majority of it.

 

In my opinion Henry knows exactly who torpedoed us and took corrective action. Hence desperate Dave is now enjoying an early vacation.

[Elktonnick]

In my opinion Henry knows exactly who torpedoed us and took corrective action. Hence desperate Dave is now enjoying an early vacation.

 

I think the point is whomever was responsible, DD, Cora or both, the Spring Training regime that the Sox followed this past spring was a terrible idea.

[Swiharts Ghost]

I think the point is whomever was responsible, DD, Cora or both, the Spring Training regime that the Sox followed this past spring was a terrible idea.

 

Regardless who's fault it is Cora is not as good a manager as we thought .

[Elktonnick]

Regardless who's fault it is Cora is not as good a manager as we thought .

 

Cora bears as much criticism for the failures of this season as he merits praise for last years success. Regardless of the teams commitment to bring him back for next season, I suspect he will be under intense scrutiny and he won't be given as much slack next year as he had this year.

[sk7326]

Cora bears as much criticism for the failures of this season as he merits praise for last years success. Regardless of the teams commitment to bring him back for next season, I suspect he will be under intense scrutiny and he won't be given as much slack next year as he had this year.

 

I suspect he will have intense scrutiny because this is Boston and that comes with the uniform. It's been a relatively tough year - we'll see what happens.

[OH FOY]

Right now with Cora I don't know how good Cora is, or how bad he is.

For me its like starting all over again.

His team went from one extreme to another.

You get an A in a Subject, but next year you get a F in same subject, are you a C Student? (Just keeping it simple doesn't mean that was grade)

Next year is probably the telling year now. Better to Gage him. Only 2 years Managing after this season.

[Elktonnick]

Right now with Cora I don't know how good Cora is, or how bad he is.

For me its like starting all over again.

His team went from one extreme to another.

You get an A in a Subject, but next year you get a F in same subject, are you a C Student? (Just keeping it simple doesn't mean that was grade)

Next year is probably the telling year now. Better to Gage him. Only 2 years Managing after this season.

 

I think that is a fair assessment.

[Bellhorn04]

You continue to distort the argument. It isn't about how they performed later in the year but rather the failure to properly prepare in Spring Training meant the team, especially the starters, weren't ready for the early games in April. This bad start distorted the entire approach toward the whole pitching staff and needlessly taxed the bullpen early in the year. Cora and or DD's idiotic approach toward ST caused the team to dig itself a hole it never got out of

 

I'm not distorting the argument. You're refusing to address any of the other points I made about why our starting pitching is a shambles. You just stay fixated on the one thing. That's what gets a little frustrating.

 

Let's take Porcello for example.

 

Is it your opinion that his slower ramp-up to the season is the sole cause of his ERA being 1.5 higher than his career average?

[Bellhorn04]

So much has been made of the bad start putting the team in a hole it couldn't get out of.

 

The facts say otherwise.

 

On May 12 the Sox were 22-19, 3 behind the Rays and 2.5 behind the Yankees, with the 5th best record in the AL, with 121 games left.

 

They were in good shape in the standings at that point.

[Elktonnick]

I'm not distorting the argument. You're refusing to address any of the other points I made about why our starting pitching is a shambles. You just stay fixated on the one thing. That's what gets a little frustrating.

 

Let's take Porcello for example.

 

Is it your opinion that his slower ramp-up to the season is the sole cause of his ERA being 1.5 higher than his career average?

 

It is partly to blame. At that point in the season they had already overused the pen. They squandered opportunities against weak teams such as Seattle. Porcello said he simply wasn't executing his pitches. He has a pitching coach who never pitched which obviously didn't help. But I like Jim Palmer who said on an Orioles telecast against Baltimore that he thought the lack of work in ST has had an adverse affect on Boston's starters. Remember Porcello started the year 0-3 and had an 11+ ERA

[Bellhorn04]

It is partly to blame. At that point in the season they had already overused the pen. They squandered opportunities against weak teams such as Seattle. Porcello said he simply wasn't executing his pitches. He has a pitching coach who never pitched which obviously didn't help. But I like Jim Palmer who said on an Orioles telecast against Baltimore that he thought the lack of work in ST has had an adverse affect on Boston's starters. Remember Porcello started the year 0-3 and had an 11+ ERA

 

OK, but then Porcello straightened himself out and by June 17 his ERA was down to a normal-size 4.31.

 

Since then it's 7.75.

[Elktonnick]

So much has been made of the bad start putting the team in a hole it couldn't get out of.

 

The facts say otherwise.

 

On May 12 the Sox were 22-19, 3 behind the Rays and 2.5 behind the Yankees, with the 5th best record in the AL, with 121 games left.

 

They were in good shape in the standings at that point.

 

This team was never in good shape. Their play while it had improved at that point was only because they just came off series against very weak teams Chicago Baltimore and Seattle, none of whom have winning records. After that they lost 10 0f their next 17 games They were never competitive against the Yankees all year.

[Elktonnick]

OK, but then Porcello straightened himself out and by June 17 his ERA was down to a normal-size 4.31.

 

Since then it's 7.75.

 

That all supports my argument that the dug themselves a hole earlier in the year.

[Bellhorn04]

That all supports my argument that the dug themselves a hole earlier in the year.

 

I don't see how.

 

With you, everything seems to supports that one argument.

 

Countless teams and players have come back from slow starts.

[Elktonnick]

I don't see how.

 

With you, everything seems to supports that one argument.

 

Countless teams and players have come back from slow starts.

 

The slow start affected more than just pitching. The team despite glowing offensive numbers played listless brain dead baseball, frequently. A lot of those glowing numbers were built up during "garbage" time in routs. The manager for much of the year said the team would find its groove which it never did. The team convinced itself it was too good and things would eventually turn around. They were too smug for too long until it was too late. That is the story of the 2019 Red Sox season. "Too good not to make the playoffs except they did.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

It may have been a mistake. But it doesn't explain why Porcello has pitched badly all season long. It doesn't account for injuries to Sale, Price and Eovaldi (all who have had recent injury issues coming into this year), or the flops of Johnson, Velazquez and Cashner, or the lack of any MLB ready starters in the minors.

 

I just think it's blown way out of proportion.

 

Bellhorn is either related to Cora or he's his agent.

[Bellhorn04]

Bellhorn is either related to Cora or he's his agent.

 

Horseshit. The guy won the World Series last year. He's in his second season as a manager. I think maybe he deserves a little defense.

 

Sue me.

[notin]

Horseshit. The guy won the World Series last year. He's in his second season as a manager. I think maybe he deserves a little defense.

 

Sue me.

 

And it’s not like this team is 60-85 here. If the Sox were in the NL, they’d be 2 games out of a wild card. Probably closer, because Cora wouldn’t be starting Gorkys-style lineups so much...

[a700hitter]

It may have been a mistake. But it doesn't explain why Porcello has pitched badly all season long. It doesn't account for injuries to Sale, Price and Eovaldi (all who have had recent injury issues coming into this year), or the flops of Johnson, Velazquez and Cashner, or the lack of any MLB ready starters in the minors.

 

I just think it's blown way out of proportion.

Remy and Eckersley think it was a significant mistake.

[moonslav59]

I wonder....

 

Had we given all our starters the normal ST'ing innings, which would have been maybe 5-15 more innings each, and 3 or 4 had major injuries, would the debate, today, had been about all the extra innings they got last October and why we didn't go easier on them in ST'ing and early in the 2019 season?

[Elktonnick]

I wonder....

 

Had we given all our starters the normal ST'ing innings, which would have been maybe 5-15 more innings each, and 3 or 4 had major injuries, would the debate, today, had been about all the extra innings they got last October and why we didn't go easier on them in ST'ing and early in the 2019 season?

 

No. I watched Warren Spahn pitch. Enough said

[dgalehouse]

If Cora gets so much credit when we win , then he has to bear the onus when we don't. Simple as that .

[a700hitter]

I wonder....

 

Had we given all our starters the normal ST'ing innings, which would have been maybe 5-15 more innings each, and 3 or 4 had major injuries, would the debate, today, had been about all the extra innings they got last October and why we didn't go easier on them in ST'ing and early in the 2019 season?

It wasn't just the pitchers, Cora wasn't playing the position players enough either. Take a look at the offensive output in the first 5 weeks. The hitters weren't ready for the start of the season either. The whole team was unprepared to start the season. I agree with Remy and Eckersley. Proof positive that this was a mistake will be that Cora will change his approach next spring.

[dgalehouse]

It wasn't just the pitchers, Cora wasn't playing the position players enough either. Take a look at the offensive output in the first 5 weeks. The hitters weren't ready for the start of the season either. The whole team was unprepared to start the season. I agree with Remy and Eckersley. Proof positive that this was a mistake will be that Cora will change his approach next spring.

 

Without a doubt , Cora will change the spring training program next year . But there will be those on here who will insist that there is a different reason for the change than this year's problems . That's S.O.P. around here .

[moonslav59]

...and if we play everyone more next spring, and we suck in April, will that one month sample size be "proof positive" of anything at all?

 

I'm thinking, "NO!" Just like this April was.