Fire alex cora

[dgalehouse]

Two very different positions. And I'm of the opinion that DD wasn't fired because of a bad 2019 season. If he was, that would have been an overreaction, yes.

 

John Henry should have been more forthcoming as to the reason for the firing . His failure to do that has led to the speculation and guesswork .

[Bellhorn04]

John Henry should have been more forthcoming as to the reason for the firing . His failure to do that has led to the speculation and guesswork .

 

That's the way it always is though.

 

The usual explanation is 'we decided to move in a new direction'.

[a700hitter]

That would be the only positive of it, but the increase is surface area only allows for more weak contact on the expanded edges of the bat barrel. A player has to hit along the radius of the bat to make good contact. A corked bat might help increase pop ups and foul tips.

 

A lighter bat will lead to the same effects on balls hit squarely on the radius and increased exit velocity for those hitting the sweet spot, due to the increase in kinetic energy and moment arm.

Wouldn't the barrel itself be bigger on the altered bat than on a lighter legal bat? I am not playing Devil's Advocate here or being contrarian. I am just trying to understand the physics.

[jad]

If we get all aerodynamic about it, like frisbees and airplanes, baseball movement is subjected to 4 primary forces - thrust, lift, drag, and gravity. With baseballs and frisbess, thrust is provided by the thrower/pitcher. Lift is a function of airflow. With a frisbess, the curved edges provide airspeed increase above the frisbee that causes the lift. Drag comes from below, perpendicular to lift, and is a function of air pressure and, actually, launch angle. Gravity affects the thrown object at 9.8 m/sec^2 with a downward force equal to that constant times the mass of the ball (which is known as the "weight").

 

The myth of the rising fastball rests on the lift force exceeding the drag force, but this cannot happen due to the weight of the baseball. I wouldn't call that slowing down the descent as much as I would simply being thrown too fast so as to minimize the effects of gravity. Gravitational force does have a time component, like all forces.

 

The "lack of movement" is about the fact that the launch angle from a pitcher is typically downward, with most release points being higher than the catcher's target. A "rising fastball" is just a fastball thrown at a launch angle with a higher trajectory to above the target. The hitter anticipates the ball being lower than it's actual path, and the 1/2 second doesn't always give the proper time to adjust. The ball isn't rising; it's just following a different path.

 

Yup. We agree on all points. (This being a sports board, however, that should not prevent us from arguing passionately about it!)

[notin]

That's the way it always is though.

 

The usual explanation is 'we decided to move in a new direction'.

 

Sort of like how players signing free agent contracts always say "I felt this team had the best chance to win."

 

And they coincidentally offered the most money...

[Bellhorn04]

Sort of like how players signing free agent contracts always say "I felt this team had the best chance to win."

 

And they coincidentally offered the most money...

 

Let's face it, sometimes being honest is just stupid.

[notin]

Wouldn't the barrel itself be bigger on the altered bat than on a lighter legal bat? I am not playing Devil's Advocate here or being contrarian. I am just trying to understand the physics.

 

The barrel is bigger, leading to more contact on the fringes. But that contact is typically just foul tips and pop ups (on the upper edge) or little weak grounders (on the lower edge). A player needs to make contact on the point of the surface of the bat radius that is in direct line with the path of the bat in order to make optimum contact. Hitting any other point on the surface of the bat splits the force vector into multiple components and leads to weaker contact.

 

And to make hitting even tougher, that radius on the bat has to be at a point along the bat so that it passes through the center of mass. It is amazing that players can do all this sometimes....

[jacksonianmarch]

That's the way it always is though.

 

The usual explanation is 'we decided to move in a new direction'.

 

Exactly. Now, as an employer, one must guard against ruining your employee's future employment. You can no longer stick a dagger in a fired employee's back on the way out or you'll get sued. Henry handled it the only way he could. No comment on the why. Thank him for his record as GM. On to the next GM

[jad]

It's an interesting discussion and if I had gone further than getting an A in College Physics, I might be trying to prove out whether it is possible for the ball to rise. One thing is certain, the baseball at times seems to rise to the hitter. It also looks like it is curving at times too. For a hitter or an announcer to refer to a pitch like that as a "rising fastball" is okay with me. That is easier to listen to than an announcer or hitter refer to the pitch as an optical illusion that the hitter swung under. Maybe it is just me. Do some groundballs pick up speed as they go through the infield? I don't know, but it seems that way to the fielders at times. If the announcers describe what is going on from the players' POV, they are doing their job. That is clownish for some listeners.

 

Another factor I heard cited to explain this is eye focus, which essentially switches from "far" to "near" when the ball gets near the plate. (Same, I believe, in tennis). This gives the illusion of sudden movement as the eyes, or brain, adjusts to where the ball is (what used to be called the "hop" in a fastball--a term I don't hear used anymore). Again, a pure illusion. As for groundballs, I think the only way for one to pick up speed would be if it were hit with terrific topspin--again, this certainly 'seems' to happen in tennis. But I'm not sure whether that speed is real or just an illusion as the ball does not bounce as expected. This, of course, could be easily tested. I think we already know the FB does not rise or 'hop'--all we're looking for there is an explanation of why it seems to do so. The first time I saw MLB players throwing from the outfield, I was convinced that the ball rose as it was thrown--obviously, it wasn't. It must be what the brain tells us when confronted with a throw that is much faster than what we're used to.

[notin]

Let's face it, sometimes being honest is just stupid.

 

But it's also why I always loved Torii Hunter. During an interview after he signed his contract with the Angels, he was naturally asked why he chose them. He said "My grandma told me I'd be stupid to turn down that much money."

[a700hitter]

The barrel is bigger, leading to more contact on the fringes. But that contact is typically just foul tips and pop ups (on the upper edge) or little weak grounders (on the lower edge). A player needs to make contact on the point of the surface of the bat radius that is in direct line with the path of the bat in order to make optimum contact. Hitting any other point on the surface of the bat splits the force vector into multiple components and leads to weaker contact.

 

And to make hitting even tougher, that radius on the bat has to be at a point along the bat so that it passes through the center of mass. It is amazing that players can do all this sometimes....

I'll bet the physics of the aluminum and composite bats is very interesting. The energy of those bats need to turned down for younger leagues where the pitcher is only 45 feet away. Some of these 9/10 year olds can generate high exit velocities with those bats on 50 mph pitches. It is extremely dangerous.

[jacksonianmarch]

It is dangerous, but the game wouldn't be cost effective if it was wood. Wood bats break a lot and parents wouldn't be terribly interested in buying 3 or 4 bats a season when 1 bat every couple years suffices with aluminum

[Slasher9]

It is dangerous, but the game wouldn't be cost effective if it was wood. Wood bats break a lot and parents wouldn't be terribly interested in buying 3 or 4 bats a season when 1 bat every couple years suffices with aluminum

 

what about wood bats filled with super balls?

[Slasher9]

I'll bet the physics of the aluminum and composite bats is very interesting. The energy of those bats need to turned down for younger leagues where the pitcher is only 45 feet away. Some of these 9/10 year olds can generate high exit velocities with those bats on 50 mph pitches. It is extremely dangerous.

 

2 years ago they made a change to what is allowed for composite bats for the 12 and under kids. it's not as dangerous anymore. prior to that change the bats had unreal pop. see: Mako, Easton.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

That would be the only positive of it, but the increase is surface area only allows for more weak contact on the expanded edges of the bat barrel. A player has to hit along the radius of the bat to make good contact. A corked bat might help increase pop ups and foul tips.

 

A lighter bat will lead to the same effects on balls hit squarely on the radius and increased exit velocity for those hitting the sweet spot, due to the increase in kinetic energy and moment arm.

 

If I'm not mistaken, no finer hitter than Ted Williams used a 31oz bat for the exact reasons you described.

[a700hitter]

It is dangerous, but the game wouldn't be cost effective if it was wood. Wood bats break a lot and parents wouldn't be terribly interested in buying 3 or 4 bats a season when 1 bat every couple years suffices with aluminum

Have you seen the price of today’s aluminum and composite bats. I don’t think the cost effective argument holds water anymore, especially at younger ages where there aren’t lots of broken bats.

[notin]

I'll bet the physics of the aluminum and composite bats is very interesting. The energy of those bats need to turned down for younger leagues where the pitcher is only 45 feet away. Some of these 9/10 year olds can generate high exit velocities with those bats on 50 mph pitches. It is extremely dangerous.

 

The difference is in the deformation. When you strike a pitch with a wood bat, both the bat and ball deform, albeit not equally. But that deformation is lost kinetic energy. An aluminum (or aluminium for the Brits out there) barely deforms, if at all. And that make a huge difference in the amount of energy transferred to the ball.

 

That aluminum bats don't deform as much and the ball still leaves with more kinetic energy is further proof as to why corking bats doesn't work. Unless you like foul tips...

[notin]

Have you seen the price of today’s aluminum and composite bats. I don’t think the cost effective argument holds water anymore, especially at younger ages where there aren’t lots of broken bats.

 

Bats are freakin' crazy expensive. $70 for a cheap one? WTF?

[notin]

what about wood bats filled with super balls?

 

They shatter and the balls bounce all over the first base line. Anything else, Graig?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

According to steroid infested Sammy Sosa, corked bats were only used for batting practice.

[notin]

According to steroid infested Sammy Sosa, corked bats were only used for batting practice.

 

Right. And steroids were only taken for the flavor...

[oldtimer]

Bats are freakin' crazy expensive. $70 for a cheap one? WTF?

 

Double walled carbon fiber bats run around $200 and can go more. They are used in softball, and senior softball gets the ones with the highest Bat Performance Factor. High speed phots at impact show the ball deforming a lot. Bats develop handle bend when swung and also deform when hit. Lots of reseach has been done on this subject.

[notin]

Double walled carbon fiber bats run around $200 and can go more. They are used in softball, and senior softball gets the ones with the highest Bat Performance Factor. High speed phots at impact show the ball deforming a lot. Bats develop handle bend when swung and also deform when hit. Lots of reseach has been done on this subject.

 

I bought my daughter an aluminum softball bat for about $70 and that was at a Play It Again Sports....

[S5Dewey]

The difference is in the deformation. When you strike a pitch with a wood bat, both the bat and ball deform, albeit not equally. But that deformation is lost kinetic energy. An aluminum (or aluminium for the Brits out there) barely deforms, if at all. And that make a huge difference in the amount of energy transferred to the ball.

 

That aluminum bats don't deform as much and the ball still leaves with more kinetic energy is further proof as to why corking bats doesn't work. Unless you like foul tips...

 

I'm trying to reconcile what you said here with what I saw online.

 

Aluminum is a hard material. It doesn't have a lot of "give." In other words, aluminum is highly elastic. Therefore, very little of the ball's initial kinetic energy (the energy associated with motion) is used up in permanently deforming the aluminum. Indeed, the aluminum springs back quickly and the ball retains much of its initial energy. In contrast, wood is less elastic: it is deformed permanently and to a greater extent than aluminum.

 

My interpretation of this is that the aluminum bat springs back thereby creating a "trampoline effect" which propels the ball off the bat at a faster speed than would a wooden bat.

 

Since aluminum bats are hollow it's my understanding that some manufacturers of aluminum bats have installed a 'disc' inside the bat or thickened the wall of the bat to limit that trampoline effect and thereby reduce the risk to pitchers of having balls hit back at them. In fact, these "altered" bats are the only ones allowable for high school use now.

[jacksonianmarch]

a700, I am not talking about the bougie parents who are dropping $300 a year for aluminum bats. I am talking about the little league team that can buy 3 bats for their squad at play it again for $40 total and play the game. Good luck doing that with wood

[oldtimer]

I bought my daughter an aluminum softball bat for about $70 and that was at a Play It Again Sports....

 

I own one I bought at Hospice for $5 but I also own 4 carbon fiber bats that all ran over $175 and the last one was $200 with a discount. They do break and I have broken 4 Miken's and one Dudley Hot W and I am old enough that I shouldn't be able to do that. The aluminum bats are used in cold weather since they don't break easily.

[oldtimer]

I'm trying to reconcile what you said here with what I saw online.

 

Aluminum is a hard material. It doesn't have a lot of "give." In other words, aluminum is highly elastic. Therefore, very little of the ball's initial kinetic energy (the energy associated with motion) is used up in permanently deforming the aluminum. Indeed, the aluminum springs back quickly and the ball retains much of its initial energy. In contrast, wood is less elastic: it is deformed permanently and to a greater extent than aluminum.

 

My interpretation of this is that the aluminum bat springs back thereby creating a "trampoline effect" which propels the ball off the bat at a faster speed than would a wooden bat.

 

Since aluminum bats are hollow it's my understanding that some manufacturers of aluminum bats have installed a 'disc' inside the bat or thickened the wall of the bat to limit that trampoline effect and thereby reduce the risk to pitchers of having balls hit back at them. In fact, these "altered" bats are the only ones allowable for high school use now.

 

If you have interest in the subject in depth, I refer you to the technical papers listed in the following: https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats.html

[S5Dewey]

If you have interest in the subject in depth, I refer you to the technical papers listed in the following: https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/bats.html

 

Good stuff here for folks who care about this. And lots of it! Thanks.

[notin]

I'm trying to reconcile what you said here with what I saw online.

 

Aluminum is a hard material. It doesn't have a lot of "give." In other words, aluminum is highly elastic. Therefore, very little of the ball's initial kinetic energy (the energy associated with motion) is used up in permanently deforming the aluminum. Indeed, the aluminum springs back quickly and the ball retains much of its initial energy. In contrast, wood is less elastic: it is deformed permanently and to a greater extent than aluminum.

 

My interpretation of this is that the aluminum bat springs back thereby creating a "trampoline effect" which propels the ball off the bat at a faster speed than would a wooden bat.

 

Since aluminum bats are hollow it's my understanding that some manufacturers of aluminum bats have installed a 'disc' inside the bat or thickened the wall of the bat to limit that trampoline effect and thereby reduce the risk to pitchers of having balls hit back at them. In fact, these "altered" bats are the only ones allowable for high school use now.

 

That's a similar concept. Finite element analysis relates this type of force to springs using the formula f = kx, where x is the distance (amount of deformation here) and k is the spring constant, which is this case would be a function of the modulus of elasticity (a material property) of the bat material. Aluminum has a much higher modulus of elasticity, and therefore a higher k value than wood. The obvious trade off is that the amount of deformation of the wood (or x) is obviously going to be greater than the aluminum. But the force is going to be a constant. So f = kx for aluminum should actually be the same value as f = kx for wood at contact, but this is only true in what science and engineering students call "Physics Land" (Physics Land is a mythical place where those students get to ignore the effects of friction, air resistance, and the Law of Conservation of Energy is kept simple.).

 

The reason the two forces will differ is because we are not in Physics Land, but in the real world. And in the real world, the wood will experience a higher degree of plastic deformation, or permanent deformation, and this will cause a significant drop in kinetic energy, as energy can be lost here, and the Law of Conservation of Energy is not kept so simple.

 

Those newer aluminum bats you mention are operating on the idea of changing the elastic deformation of the bat to a value as close to 0 as possible. No deformation means f =kx = k*0 = 0. Although it probably never quite gets there.

 

If we bring this back to corking a bat, cork is softer than wood and more ready to experience plastic deformation, which reduces the f = kx applied to the ball. If a batter used a bat made entirely out of cork, the bat would dent and probably break on his first swing, which obviously won't help. A player swinging a corked wooden bat would experience more deformation in the wood, but also more plastic deformation due to the hollowing of the barrel, reducing the amount of kinetic energy transferred to the ball. And if the deformation is too much, what can happen is similar to a loosely strung tennis racket, where excessive deformation of the bat becomes detrimental. There is a point where that happens as well..

[Elktonnick]

That's a similar concept. Finite element analysis relates this type of force to springs using the formula f = kx, where x is the distance (amount of deformation here) and k is the spring constant, which is this case would be a function of the modulus of elasticity (a material property) of the bat material. Aluminum has a much higher modulus of elasticity, and therefore a higher k value than wood. The obvious trade off is that the amount of deformation of the wood (or x) is obviously going to be greater than the aluminum. But the force is going to be a constant. So f = kx for aluminum should actually be the same value as f = kx for wood at contact, but this is only true in what science and engineering students call "Physics Land" (Physics Land is a mythical place where those students get to ignore the effects of friction, air resistance, and the Law of Conservation of Energy is kept simple.).

 

The reason the two forces will differ is because we are not in Physics Land, but in the real world. And in the real world, the wood will experience a higher degree of plastic deformation, or permanent deformation, and this will cause a significant drop in kinetic energy, as energy can be lost here, and the Law of Conservation of Energy is not kept so simple.

 

Those newer aluminum bats you mention are operating on the idea of changing the elastic deformation of the bat to a value as close to 0 as possible. No deformation means f =kx = k*0 = 0. Although it probably never quite gets there.

 

If we bring this back to corking a bat, cork is softer than wood and more ready to experience plastic deformation, which reduces the f = kx applied to the ball. If a batter used a bat made entirely out of cork, the bat would dent and probably break on his first swing, which obviously won't help. A player swinging a corked wooden bat would experience more deformation in the wood, but also more plastic deformation due to the hollowing of the barrel, reducing the amount of kinetic energy transferred to the ball. And if the deformation is too much, what can happen is similar to a loosely strung tennis racket, where excessive deformation of the bat becomes detrimental. There is a point where that happens as well..

 

Hey Folks this is all very interesting but does it have to do with Alex Cora and his tenure in Boston???