Fire alex cora

[harmony]

I was referring more to the following: "In a column headlined "Why nobody might want to be Boston's GM," ESPN's Buster Olney detailed the negative perception of the Red Sox around baseball. According to Olney, many view the Red Sox as a dysfunctional organization with a bad culture."

 

I believe Epstein has pretty much ruled out any reunion with the Red Sox in the foreseeable future.

From ESPN's Buster Olney:

Two World Series titles in six years, and two executives -- with two very different personalities, operating very differently -- both dismissed. These decisions loosely frame the industry perception of the Red Sox as a chaotic company, a miserable place to work. Boston owner John Henry needs to understand this, because it is why some of the people he'd probably love to consider as possible replacements for Dombrowski privately dismiss the idea out of hand.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/27671442/olney-why-want-boston-gm

[Slasher9]

f*** that yankees lover olney. he can pound sand.

[moonslav59]

Dave Dombrowski is a well respected GM in ml baseball. I have repeatedly from what 4 or 5 posters here who have constantly complained about the job he did simply because they just don't like his methods. Did he ruin the farm? Not in my opinion at all. he did what he had to do to create what should have been a quality team for years. If the starting pitchers had remained healthy, I believe that we would be gearing up for some fall baseball. I obviously was not in favor of the firing and I certainly do not think that Cora should go but if the consensus is that this team "quit", then Cora needs to figure a few things out. His job is to make sure that they don't quit regardless of what the scoreboard says. If one of these two men had to go and the general feeling is that the team quit, then Cora should be the one pacing his bags.

 

He ruined the farm doing what he thought he had to do to insure a ring.

 

We can debate whether he needed to go as far as he did and still get the ring, but IMO, there is no doubt the farm was ruined- justifiably or not.

 

We had a top 5-8 farm. Now we have a bottom 5-8 farm.

 

I'm fine with bottom 5, since we got the ring, but it's time to rebuild the farm not pretend it's fine, and DD is not the guy to do that. I just hope the next guy makes the rebuild as quickly as possible, and we can get back to top contention status, soon.

[Bellhorn04]

He ruined the farm doing what he thought he had to do to insure a ring.

 

We can debate whether he needed to go as far as he did and still get the ring, but IMO, there is no doubt the farm was ruined- justifiably or not.

 

We had a top 5-8 farm. Now we have a bottom 5-8 farm.

 

I'm fine with bottom 5, since we got the ring, but it's time to rebuild the farm not pretend it's fine, and DD is not the guy to do that. I just hope the next guy makes the rebuild as quickly as possible, and we can get back to top contention status, soon.

 

It's true we can argue forever about whether DD went too far. He probably did go a little too far in what he gave up. But overall, the trades he made were justified ones. Every big trade he made was for pitching. I can't really argue with that approach.

[sk7326]

He ruined the farm doing what he thought he had to do to insure a ring.

 

We can debate whether he needed to go as far as he did and still get the ring, but IMO, there is no doubt the farm was ruined- justifiably or not.

 

We had a top 5-8 farm. Now we have a bottom 5-8 farm.

 

I'm fine with bottom 5, since we got the ring, but it's time to rebuild the farm not pretend it's fine, and DD is not the guy to do that. I just hope the next guy makes the rebuild as quickly as possible, and we can get back to top contention status, soon.

 

Dombrowski did exactly what his boss wanted him to do. And so the team will have its 4th GM in 7 years while the Yankees GM has somehow lasted 22 years. Those two titles are awesome though.

[moonslav59]

It's true we can argue forever about whether DD went too far. He probably did go a little too far in what he gave up. But overall, the trades he made were justified ones. Every big trade he made was for pitching. I can't really argue with that approach.

 

I wouldn't have gone as far as he did, but he got us a ring, so I fine with what he did. However, I won't sugar coat what we gave up to get that ring- not that you are.

 

Judging by hindsight, the Pom-Espi trade did not help us win a ring- maybe one division title, but not a ring. The Travis-Dubon for Thornburg trade was bad. Justifiable, at the time, but bad in hindsight. The Buttrey for Kinsler deal was probably not needed to get us a ring, but we did need 2B defense. I wish we had Margot and Allen back, but no doubt Kimbrel was a big piece of our 3 division wins and the 2018 ring, despite his poor playoff performance.

 

In hindsight, I wish we could have kept Allen and traded Espi, Travis and Dubon for something better and longer controlled than Pom & Thornburg, but overall, DD made justifiable trades that won us a ring. That's the bottom line up to 2018. Now, for 2019, and more importantly, the extended future, we have to deal with the consequences of those trades.

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski did exactly what his boss wanted him to do. And so the team will have its 4th GM in 7 years while the Yankees GM has somehow lasted 22 years. Those two titles are awesome though.

 

Not "exactly" or he'd still be the Sox GM.

[Bellhorn04]

Not "exactly" or he'd still be the Sox GM.

 

Maybe he did exactly what Henry wanted up to winning it all last year-and after that he screwed the pooch.

[sk7326]

Not "exactly" or he'd still be the Sox GM.

 

Or he was scapegoated by an ownership that has shown a history of being very reactionary. Dombrowski's MO was well known. Henry brought him in to fix the major league club.

[sk7326]

Maybe he did exactly what Henry wanted up to winning it all last year-and after that he screwed the pooch.

 

The Sale extension doesn't happen without ownership greenlighting it.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sale extension doesn't happen without ownership greenlighting it.

 

Absolutely true. But when subsequent events make it look bad, it's DD who bears the blame.

[sk7326]

Absolutely true. But when subsequent events make it look bad, it's DD who bears the blame.

 

I am inclined to blame ownership about as much as DD for it - there was no reason to do it before the season. Henry is not in the dark here.

 

I look at it this way. If ownership prioritized the farm, then they would have hired somebody else besides Dombrowski to run the operation. But Henry was itchy to win again, so this is what happened. This is the sort of instability folks teased Steinbrenner about in the 80s. Now, there are a lot of Red Sox alums out there GM-wise who know the landscape which will help.

[moonslav59]

I am inclined to blame ownership about as much as DD for it - there was no reason to do it before the season. Henry is not in the dark here.

 

I look at it this way. If ownership prioritized the farm, then they would have hired somebody else besides Dombrowski to run the operation. But Henry was itchy to win again, so this is what happened. This is the sort of instability folks teased Steinbrenner about in the 80s. Now, there are a lot of Red Sox alums out there GM-wise who know the landscape which will help.

 

They were fine with the plan, but the window was supposed to last through 2019 and possibly 2020 or even 2021. We were still the top spending team. We still had a pretty young team on the field, and the oldest players we had were role players like Moreland & Pearce.

 

Yes, we lost 33 starts from Eovaldi, Price and Sale combined, but that's not really horrible, when you consider the other 2 in the rotation never missed a start.

 

I think Henry was shocked by the suddenness of the "cliff," and the whole argument for trading away the future for a 5-7 year window collapsed when the window turned out to be 3 years- glorious as they were.

Edited September 27, 2019 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

The Sale extension doesn't happen without ownership greenlighting it.

 

The Sale extension was not the reason for the collapse or DD's firing.

[Bellhorn04]

I am inclined to blame ownership about as much as DD for it - there was no reason to do it before the season. Henry is not in the dark here.

 

There was reason if they thought doing it before the season was their one chance to retain Sale at a discounted price.

 

The mystery continues to be exactly what was, and is, the condition of Sale's arm and how it's been so hard to diagnose.

[moonslav59]

There was reason if they thought doing it before the season was their one chance to retain Sale at a discounted price.

 

The mystery continues to be exactly what was, and is, the condition of Sale's arm and how it's been so hard to diagnose.

 

It is a mystery, because I'm sure they looked over his medical records very well before offering him the extension.

 

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but Sale still started 25 games, this year- 13 with 0-2 runs allowed and 16 with 0-3 allowed.

[sk7326]

It is a mystery, because I'm sure they looked over his medical records very well before offering him the extension.

 

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but Sale still started 25 games, this year- 13 with 0-2 runs allowed and 16 with 0-3 allowed.

 

I am fairly optimistic. Strikeouts were still there, WHIP was good. He struggled with men on base, which seems fluky. Ultimately - and this is a little cliche - his mistakes were hit very hard. He seemed to be one of the prime victims of the juiced ball, not getting the movement on the slider at times.

[sk7326]

They were fine with the plan, but the window was supposed to last through 2019 and possibly 2020 or even 2021. We were still the top spending team. We still had a pretty young team on the field, and the oldest players we had were role players like Moreland & Pearce.

 

Yes, we lost 33 starts from Eovaldi, Price and Sale combined, but that's not really horrible, when you consider the other 2 in the rotation never missed a start.

 

I think Henry was shocked by the suddenness of the "cliff," and the whole argument for trading away the future for a 5-7 year window collapsed when the window turned out to be 3 years- glorious as they were.

 

Considering the injury trouble in the rotation, this team is still going to win 85 games. There is nothing in this claim that really justifies Henry's whiplash. He's basically running the team like a WEEI caller. Remember, this "cliff" year includes three players who will get MVP votes and another who will appear on at least a couple of Cy Young ballots. There are some reasonable regression arguments for being in the mix next year. 118 wins was not a realistic assessment of the roster, but then neither is 85.

 

Again, it's weird to see an owner who acts so dispassionately in his actual business (And in Liverpool FC if you follow them) behave so rashly the way he has with this team over the decade.

Edited September 27, 2019 by sk7326

[Bellhorn04]

Considering the injury trouble in the rotation, this team is still going to win 85 games. There is nothing in this claim that really justifies Henry's whiplash. He's basically running the team like a WEEI caller. Remember, this "cliff" year includes three players who will get MVP votes and another who will appear on at least a couple of Cy Young ballots. There are some reasonable regression arguments for being in the mix next year. 118 wins was not a realistic assessment of the roster, but then neither is 85.

 

Again, it's weird to see an owner who acts so dispassionately in his actual business (And in Liverpool FC if you follow them) behave so rashly the way he has with this team over the decade.

 

The thing we don't know much about is the issues with DD's 'management style'.

 

Shaughnessy signaled the firing weeks before it happened, saying DD seemed to have penned himself off from the rest of the organization except for his 'trusted lieutenants'. I don't know how much of that is true and how much is idle speculation, of course.

[sk7326]

The thing we don't know much about is the issues with DD's 'management style'.

 

Shaughnessy signaled the firing weeks before it happened, saying DD seemed to have penned himself off from the rest of the organization except for his 'trusted lieutenants'. I don't know how much of that is true and how much is idle speculation, of course.

 

I think this is a fairer take - if there were issues on that end, and ownership was not let in on it, that is a different issue. Listen, the Red Sox will land someone good - this is a prestigious gig, and Sam Kennedy has a better reputation than Lucchino as far as being easy to work with. But whichever of your Hoyers, McLeods, Swadiye's or anyone else gets hired, there has to be some commitment to giving him time. Especially if the guy is going to be, um, encouraged, to deal Betts.

[moonslav59]

Considering the injury trouble in the rotation, this team is still going to win 85 games. There is nothing in this claim that really justifies Henry's whiplash. He's basically running the team like a WEEI caller. Remember, this "cliff" year includes three players who will get MVP votes and another who will appear on at least a couple of Cy Young ballots. There are some reasonable regression arguments for being in the mix next year. 118 wins was not a realistic assessment of the roster, but then neither is 85.

 

Again, it's weird to see an owner who acts so dispassionately in his actual business (And in Liverpool FC if you follow them) behave so rashly the way he has with this team over the decade.

 

I don't think 35 starts from outside your top 5 starters is all that out of the norm. Plus, we porbably could have started Eovaldi a few more games, and we may have even started Price and Sale more had we been in the playoff hunt.

 

I just don't see injuries as a major excuse for us doing so much worse than last year.

 

Starting Pitchers all did worse, except ERod.

 

Pen blew too many saves.

 

Offense bunched too many runs when not needed.

 

Defense, despite Devers doing much better, did worse overall.

 

Base-running looked more like 2017 not 2018.

 

GM, managing and coaching made more mistakes.

[sk7326]

I don't think 35 starts from outside your top 5 starters is all that out of the norm. Plus, we porbably could have started Eovaldi a few more games, and we may have even started Price and Sale more had we been in the playoff hunt.

 

I just don't see injuries as a major excuse for us doing so much worse than last year.

 

Starting Pitchers all did worse, except ERod.

 

Pen blew too many saves.

 

Offense bunched too many runs when not needed.

 

Defense, despite Devers doing much better, did worse overall.

 

Base-running looked more like 2017 not 2018.

 

GM, managing and coaching made more mistakes.

 

There was a lot fluky in the starting pitcher performance - it is weird to see only Rodriguez do better, and everybody else go markedly worse. Overall a disappointing year - easy to overreact to, with ample evidence being demonstrated by the principals.

[moonslav59]

There was a lot fluky in the starting pitcher performance - it is weird to see only Rodriguez do better, and everybody else go markedly worse. Overall a disappointing year - easy to overreact to, with ample evidence being demonstrated by the principals.

 

I felt the same way about 2017. Seemed like too many players had down years all at the same time. Well, with 2017 and 2019 both seeming "fluky," maybe it was 2018 that was the outlier.

 

Our offense did very well in 2018 and 2019, so it's mostly about the pitching.

 

ERod, Workman, Taylor and Walden did better than expected.

 

The other 19 used did worse.

[FredLynn]

There was a lot fluky in the starting pitcher performance - it is weird to see only Rodriguez do better, and everybody else go markedly worse. Overall a disappointing year - easy to overreact to, with ample evidence being demonstrated by the principals.

 

Blaming injuries is an excuse. Yes, we had some of them, but look at the Yankees and the injuries they had and how they coped with them. It has nothing to do with injuries. It has to do with playing brain dead baseball for much of the year and with guys mailing it in all year.

[Bellhorn04]

Blaming injuries is an excuse. Yes, we had some of them, but look at the Yankees and the injuries they had and how they coped with them. It has nothing to do with injuries. It has to do with playing brain dead baseball for much of the year and with guys mailing it in all year.

 

What the Yankees did this year overcoming injuries was extremely unusual. They had much better depth and some pretty amazing luck with replacements.

 

We lost significant time from Sale, Price and Eovaldi. Of course that had an impact.

[jacksonianmarch]

What the Yankees did this year overcoming injuries was extremely unusual. They had much better depth and some pretty amazing luck with replacements.

 

We lost significant time from Sale, Price and Eovaldi. Of course that had an impact.

 

There is luck and there is skill. Getting Tauchman and Voit in minor league deals took skill. Urshela and Maybin, that's luck. Cashman had faith in German and when he wasn't a malfeasant prick, he was a good to very good pitcher. Cashman went into this season with the idea of depth in mind. Otherwise, why would you sign Lemahieu to be a bench bat? Interestingly, DJ is going to get MVP votes this year. The depth of both the farm and the free agent market made the Yanks the 102+ win team that they are. Cashman better win GM of the year. Nobody had to deal with more contingencies.

[Slasher9]

Pythagorean says your high.

[sk7326]

There is luck and there is skill. Getting Tauchman and Voit in minor league deals took skill. Urshela and Maybin, that's luck. Cashman had faith in German and when he wasn't a malfeasant prick, he was a good to very good pitcher. Cashman went into this season with the idea of depth in mind. Otherwise, why would you sign Lemahieu to be a bench bat? Interestingly, DJ is going to get MVP votes this year. The depth of both the farm and the free agent market made the Yanks the 102+ win team that they are. Cashman better win GM of the year. Nobody had to deal with more contingencies.

 

The Yankees organizationally have had a lot of luck getting more mileage out of those AAAA/utlility guy sorts than any team in the league, and it has been pretty consistent.

[FredLynn]

What the Yankees did this year overcoming injuries was extremely unusual. They had much better depth and some pretty amazing luck with replacements.

 

We lost significant time from Sale, Price and Eovaldi. Of course that had an impact.

 

Last year our top four SPs (Sale, Porcello, Price, and ERod) pitched about 654 innings. This year they pitched 624 innings. Not much difference, just 30 innings. The fact of the matter is that they simply sleepwalked through the season, mailing it in (except ERod) from day 1. Had they done the job that they are capable of doing we would be playing baseball next week.

[Elktonnick]

The thing we don't know much about is the issues with DD's 'management style'.

 

Shaughnessy signaled the firing weeks before it happened, saying DD seemed to have penned himself off from the rest of the organization except for his 'trusted lieutenants'. I don't know how much of that is true and how much is idle speculation, of course.

 

I tend to agree that it was more style over substance. That being said I can not say that with ontological certainty.