Mookie, Petey and the First Pitch (Think Altuve)

[bosoxmal]

I've neen wonderin now for about 2 years. Why does Altuve swing ata majority of first pitches and hit .350, wjile Mookie and Pedey manage to get the counts to 0-1 and1-2 and hit .260. Fo the Spx have a tean rule that says, "we make the pitchers work??

 

I thinl we need a new coaching staff. Carrying whips!

[Northern Star]

Simple, because he's better at it.

[fxkatt]

Against the Yankees, you're always better off swinging early, because their relief staff is superior to their starters.

 

Maybe Altuve is more patient against the superior starters. He did get 58 walks this regular season which makes him about average in that regard. In any case, if goes for the first pitch too often, he will be at a disadvantage rather than at an advantage.

 

PS was that an error on Sanchez? I can't believe Altuve scored on that hit.

[Jasonbay44]

Pedroia hit .293 while playing injured and is a career .300 hitter and this was Mookie's 1st season hitting below .291..... But you know, whatever fits the agenda you want to push I guess.

[jad]

But Altuve made that mistake so many RS baserunners have been reviled for this season--being overly aggressive. Particularly in the 9th inning! Inexcusable. Waive him.

[fxkatt]

But Altuve made that mistake so many RS baserunners have been reviled for this season--being overly aggressive. Particularly in the 9th inning! Inexcusable. Waive him.

 

I agree in a sense but when you have the best strike out pitcher in the league on the mound, one of the weakest defensive catchers, one out and you've got speed to burn, I think he made a pretty good decision. Did he run through his coach's stop sign? If so, I'm not aware of it.

 

Whatever, i think if he's thrown out, there are grounds for second-guessing whether Altuve or the coach at third.

 

Both sides would have good points to make. Case closed.

[a700hitter]

But Altuve made that mistake so many RS baserunners have been reviled for this season--being overly aggressive. Particularly in the 9th inning! Inexcusable. Waive him.

First, Altuve is not a slow footed catcher or lumbering first baseman. We routinely sent those guys home to be thrown out at by 15 feet. Altuve is one of the fastest guys on the team. An excellent baseruner.

 

Next, the pitcher on the mound throws 103 mph gas and is a big strikeout pitcher, so the odds are high that the next batter can't put the ball in play.

 

Third, he took the risk to get the walk off win. If he failed, the game would still be tied with the winning run in scoring position.

 

Fourth, Altuve looked back and saw that Judge had missed the cutoff man and that his throw was heading toward second base.

 

It was very different from the stupidity that we witnessed game in and game out.

[Spudboy]

First, Altuve is not a slow footed catcher or lumbering first baseman. We routinely sent those guys home to be thrown out at by 15 feet. Altuve is one of the fastest guys on the team. An excellent baseruner.

 

Next, the pitcher on the mound throws 103 mph gas and is a big strikeout pitcher, so the odds are high that the next batter can't put the ball in play.

 

Third, he took the risk to get the walk off win. If he failed, the game would still be tied with the winning run in scoring position.

 

Fourth, Altuve looked back and saw that Judge had missed the cutoff man and that his throw was heading toward second base.

 

It was very different from the stupidity that we witnessed game in and game out.

 

That is how I saw it. It's called taking a reasonable risk with an excellent base runner who is really fast.

 

Or something like that.

[Dojji]

Another guy very famous for swinging at the first pitch is this guy.

 

altuve is a unique talent. He is very, very good at swinging a bat, always has been, in fact Jose Altuve is probably the single best contact hitter in the game right now. He gets away with being aggressive because he's swinging at pitches he can hit, but a lot of those pitches aren't pitches that an average hitter can hit.

 

Saying the same strategy that an elite hitting talent like Altuve gets away with, would work for a guy like JBJ or Benintendi just as well, makes exactly as much sense as saying that it would work as well as it did for that other guy I mentioned in the link.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Dojji

[cp176]

First, Altuve is not a slow footed catcher or lumbering first baseman. We routinely sent those guys home to be thrown out at by 15 feet. Altuve is one of the fastest guys on the team. An excellent baseruner.

 

Next, the pitcher on the mound throws 103 mph gas and is a big strikeout pitcher, so the odds are high that the next batter can't put the ball in play.

 

Third, he took the risk to get the walk off win. If he failed, the game would still be tied with the winning run in scoring position.

 

Fourth, Altuve looked back and saw that Judge had missed the cutoff man and that his throw was heading toward second base.

 

It was very different from the stupidity that we witnessed game in and game out.

 

There are some posters here who truly do not get it. We really have no one who compares to Altuve in any way on our team. Not even Mookie I'm afraid. Do you think having played the game leads to a clearer understanding of these types of things? lol

I could have brought up the concept of clutch but I decided to go with this one instead.

[jad]

I agree in a sense but when you have the best strike out pitcher in the league on the mound, one of the weakest defensive catchers, one out and you've got speed to burn, I think he made a pretty good decision. Did he run through his coach's stop sign? If so, I'm not aware of it.

 

Whatever, i think if he's thrown out, there are grounds for second-guessing whether Altuve or the coach at third.

 

Both sides would have good points to make. Case closed.

 

Looked to me on the replay I saw that he was being waved in the whole time. (Of course, if Sanchez made the play, he would have been out by 10 feet). RS overly-agressive baserunning, on the other hand, cost them the division and any chance of post-season play.

[bosoxmal]

Against the Yankees, you're always better off swinging early, because their relief staff is superior to their starters.

 

Maybe Altuve is more patient against the superior starters. He did get 58 walks this regular season which makes him about average in that regard. In any case, if goes for the first pitch too often, he will be at a disadvantage rather than at an advantage.

 

PS was that an error on Sanchez? I can't believe Altuve scored on that hit.

 

 

This has going on for two years! Doesm't matter who they are playing or who the pitcher is.

[bosoxmal]

Pedroia hit .293 while playing injured and is a career .300 hitter and this was Mookie's 1st season hitting below .291..... But you know, whatever fits the agenda you want to push I guess.

How many time, during most any Sox game, in 2016, did you see Mookie sliding over to check with David Ortiz? Seconf full year" Hitting .300? And still needed Ortiz input? Tell me there's not a connection. In 2016 he looked confident taking apitch. In 2017 he looked futile after taking strike one!

[a700hitter]

How many time, during most any Sox game, in 2016, did you see Mookie sliding over to check with David Ortiz? Seconf full year" Hitting .300? And still needed Ortiz input? Tell me there's not a connection. In 2016 he looked confident taking apitch. In 2017 he looked futile after taking strike one!

There was a big difference this year from last with regard to pitch identification imo. Our good hitters looked fooled much more this year than last. Early on I said this and I attributed it to the fact that Papi loved to talk hitting and pitchers tendencies so much that they were better prepared.

[notin]

So the Red Sox should change an offensive strategy that has been working for over a dozen years based on one season in which they lacked a legitimate cleanup hitter for the first time?

[notin]

How many time, during most any Sox game, in 2016, did you see Mookie sliding over to check with David Ortiz? Seconf full year" Hitting .300? And still needed Ortiz input? Tell me there's not a connection. In 2016 he looked confident taking apitch. In 2017 he looked futile after taking strike one!

 

In 2016, other teams would dedicate time strategizing how not to let Ortiz beat them. While they likely planned how to handle Betts as well, the big difference in 2017 was Betts certainly became the focal point of those strategies. (If not, who else?) This doesn't change if Ortiz is in the dugout.

[Dojji]

The really lauchable thing is that the hitter in recent Red Sox history most likely to sit on his bat for the first pitch -- is David Ortiz. Even Youkilis was more likely to swing at the first pitch than Papi was.

[Bellhorn04]

Baseball-Reference has the major league splits for the results of AB's where the batter swung at the first pitch vs. took the first pitch:

 

Swung at it: 270/295/449 = 743 OPS

Took it: 249/336/416 = 752 OPS

[Spudboy]

So the Red Sox should change an offensive strategy that has been working for over a dozen years based on one season in which they lacked a legitimate cleanup hitter for the first time?

 

On way or another they need to do more to win.

[moonslav59]

Certain players just need to swing at the first pitch a little more foten, if only just to keep the pitcher "honest".

 

If 2-3 of our young players turn the declines around next year, we may not need a couple big boosts to the offense. A full year of Devers could make a big difference all by itself.

 

Maybe one big bat for clean-up is all we need.

[Kimmi]

Looked to me on the replay I saw that he was being waved in the whole time. (Of course, if Sanchez made the play, he would have been out by 10 feet). RS overly-agressive baserunning, on the other hand, cost them the division and any chance of post-season play.

 

Bingo.

[Kimmi]

Certain players just need to swing at the first pitch a little more foten, if only just to keep the pitcher "honest".

 

If 2-3 of our young players turn the declines around next year, we may not need a couple big boosts to the offense. A full year of Devers could make a big difference all by itself.

 

Maybe one big bat for clean-up is all we need.

 

Hitters should not be taking the first pitch or swinging at the first pitch, just for the sake of doing so or for the sake of following some team hitting philosophy. The situation and the pitch should dictate a lot of that decision. The bottom line, however, is that the hitters cannot become too predictable.

[Bellhorn04]

It's an endless duel of wits between pitchers and hitters. I love it. There are some real similarities to rock/paper/scissors.

[oldtimer]

Hitters should not be taking the first pitch or swinging at the first pitch, just for the sake of doing so or for the sake of following some team hitting philosophy. The situation and the pitch should dictate a lot of that decision. The bottom line, however, is that the hitters cannot become too predictable.

 

Houston is a very good hitting team and tends to be aggressive at the plate. Altuve certainly will swing at the first itch if it is to his liking. Why not? A strategy of taking two for the gibber, to supposedly wear the starting pitcher down really just puts the hitter at a huge disadvantage. I generally agree, hitters should not become predictable as that also puts them at a disadvantage.

[moonslav59]

Hitters should not be taking the first pitch or swinging at the first pitch, just for the sake of doing so or for the sake of following some team hitting philosophy. The situation and the pitch should dictate a lot of that decision. The bottom line, however, is that the hitters cannot become too predictable.

 

That's all I meant. I didn't mean go up to the plate saying, "I'm going to swing- no matter what."

 

Some of our players, IMO, are too predictable. I'm not asking for a major overhaul of our hitting philosophy.

 

Same with bunting. I hate bunting, but sometimes you just have to do it to keep the defenses honest. (We actually don't bunt much, so I'm fine there.)

 

[bosoxmal]

Pedroia hit .293 while playing injured and is a career .300 hitter and this was Mookie's 1st season hitting below .291..... But you know, whatever fits the agenda you want to push I guess.

Nimbers show what they did. Not what they might have done

[moonslav59]

Houston is a very good hitting team and tends to be aggressive at the plate. Altuve certainly will swing at the first itch if it is to his liking. Why not? A strategy of taking two for the gibber, to supposedly wear the starting pitcher down really just puts the hitter at a huge disadvantage. I generally agree, hitters should not become predictable as that also puts them at a disadvantage.

 

What an amazing turn-around for the Astros' offense. They went from nearly leading the league in K's last year to dead last this year.

 

Their team OPS went from .735 (worse than this year's Sox) to a league leading. .823.

 

[Northern Star]

What an amazing turn-around for the Astros' offense. They went from nearly leading the league in K's last year to dead last this year.

 

Their team OPS went from .735 (worse than this year's Sox) to a league leading. .823.

 

 

Hire their hitting coach away from them. STAT.

[moonslav59]

Hire their hitting coach away from them. STAT.

 

Marisnik .588> .815 (+227)

Gonzalez .694> .907 (+213)

Gurriel .684> .817 (+133)

Correa .811> .941 (+130)

Springer .815> .889 (+74)

Bregman .791> .827 (+36)

Altuve .928> .957 (+29)

 

Gattis .826> .767 (-59)

 

Unlike the Sox, they saw all but one returning player improve

 

Lost players:

Valbuena .816

T Hernandez .724

J Castro .684

T White .664

C Rasmus .641

T Kemp .621

 

New players:

Reddick .847

McCann .759

Beltran .666 (remember the posters who wanted him?)

[notin]

Baseball-Reference has the major league splits for the results of AB's where the batter swung at the first pitch vs. took the first pitch:

 

Swung at it: 270/295/449 = 743 OPS

Took it: 249/336/416 = 752 OPS

 

 

The forty point difference in OBP shows the advantage that one extra ball can give. Not sure if the slugging advantage is a product of the aggressive hitting or a statement about the types of hitters who swing at the first pitch....