DD Curse

[moonslav59]

It is a great philosophical debate for sure but being one who isn't particularly philosophical - What would the picture look like if Kimbrel was not currently on our roster? That particular one was worth it.

 

Depends on what we would have done with his $13M salary available and who else we might have gotten for Margot and the 3 others traded for Kimbrel.

 

Certainly, in today's RP'er market, $13M is not as bad as it looked at the time of the trade, but it still buys you a lot of pen talent on the open market.

 

I'm glad we have Kimbrel. but he cost a lot.

 

Here's some interesting numbers on pitchers with 16+ IP this year:

 

K/9

17.8 KImbrel

16.4 Devenski

14.5 Knebel

14.0 B Parker

13.1 Salazar

13.0 C Sale

[Bellhorn04]

FanGraphs says Kimbrel has already delivered $9.5 million of value this year. That's pretty good on May 14.

[moonslav59]

FanGraphs says Kimbrel has already delivered $9.5 million of value this year. That's pretty good on May 14.

 

He's been excellent this year.

 

Last year's full season value was $9.8M.

[dgalehouse]

To be objective , Kimbrel is one of the keys to this team's season ( And post season ) . We traded Margot , Guerra , Asuaje and Allen to acquire him. Margot is a good prospect who was blocked in our outfield plans. He may become a decent major leaguer. The other three are marginal prospects. That is not what I would call giving up an arm and a leg. More like a tonsillectomy . Something you can easily live without. As for Kimbrel's salary ; every player in MLB is overpaid. The market decides. Some owners are willing to pay extra to win. Some are not. This is big business. Not fantasy baseball. These guys are billionaires.

[cp176]

To be objective , Kimbrel is one of the keys to this team's season ( And post season ) . We traded Margot , Guerra , Asuaje and Allen to acquire him. Margot is a good prospect who was blocked in our outfield plans. He may become a decent major leaguer. The other three are marginal prospects. That is not what I would call giving up an arm and a leg. More like a tonsillectomy . Something you can easily live without. As for Kimbrel's salary ; every player in MLB is overpaid. The market decides. Some owners are willing to pay extra to win. Some are not. This is big business. Not fantasy baseball. These guys are billionaires.

 

I think I tend to see it the way you do. I think the trade was worth it and without this guy this year, many fewer people would be following the Sox.

[StephenCurry30]

Kimbrel is an elite bullpen arm, we gave up a mediocre outfielder in Margot and two no name prospects. Give me Kimbrel any day. Margot Is a decent hitter but he'll never be Mookie or Beni level, he strikes out a lot, and is a awful base stealer/ base runner

[Jasonbay44]

Kimbrel is an elite bullpen arm, we gave up a mediocre outfielder in Margot and two no name prospects. Give me Kimbrel any day. Margot Is a decent hitter but he'll never be Mookie or Beni level, he strikes out a lot, and is a awful base stealer/ base runner

Margot is also only 22, he's nowhere near as good as he's going to be.

[moonslav59]

Margot is also only 22, he's nowhere near as good as he's going to be.

 

Yes, and although Guerra's stock has fallen off a cliff, I have to think we could have gotten something worth while for him before he dropped in value.

 

Allen and Asuaje have not fallen in value.

 

Margot still has upside. He's currently ranked 24th by Baseball America.

[sk7326]

Yes, and although Guerra's stock has fallen off a cliff, I have to think we could have gotten something worth while for him before he dropped in value.

 

Allen and Asuaje have not fallen in value.

 

Margot still has upside. He's currently ranked 24th by Baseball America.

 

Guerra's stock has fallen as far as any 22 year old would - which is "some, but not that much". Plenty of time to bounce back from a rotten season.

[sk7326]

Margot is also only 22, he's nowhere near as good as he's going to be.

 

I think the issue of dealing him was that he WAS going to be fairly low ceiling offensively - BUT if this what he is (modest power, average to above average on-base, good defense) ... that is a quality starter right now, and even if he doesn't get one bit better that is very valuable given cost control.

 

The deal on its face is okay - Sox dealt surplus to get something they lacked. Could they have spun a blocked guy like Margot into more? I think so - but that is fair game at least.

[SinceYaz]

7 runs in the top o the 9th ... at this point. Ouch. Add Pom's injury and a tired pen ... the Curse seems to be far too much alive. I know Pom's not a pen guy, but with Stephen not being Wright but out for good this season, we are suddenly very pitching poor. Kimbrell has been outstanding ... but few others are toting the water.

[Emp9]

Yes, and although Guerra's stock has fallen off a cliff, I have to think we could have gotten something worth while for him before he dropped in value.

 

Allen and Asuaje have not fallen in value.

 

Margot still has upside. He's currently ranked 24th by Baseball America.

 

Margot is doing pretty decent actually. .285 after going 2 for 3 today. .333 OBP/.763 OPS, 4 HRs, 13 RBI (he's lead-off, so I'm guessing he's not getting that many RBI opportunities to begin with ). He's only 5 for 10 in SBs, so he has some work to do not getting caught stealing.

[oldtimer]

7 runs in the top o the 9th ... at this point. Ouch. Add Pom's injury and a tired pen ... the Curse seems to be far too much alive. I know Pom's not a pen guy, but with Stephen not being Wright but out for good this season, we are suddenly very pitching poor. Kimbrell has been outstanding ... but few others are toting the water.

 

Hembree sucked again today. We need to get Thornburg and Smith healthy soon as our bull pen appears to have some serious holes.

[Kimmi]

The more interesting question is - how many relievers hold their value for more than a couple of seasons at a time? For the most part - very, very, few.

 

And the second question is - how much of an edge does that give you over "above average" work - probably not that much.

 

Now the ability to get 6 outs from time to time - that is worth paying for. But the ability to hold a lead for 3 outs with the bases empty is largely not that big a deal.

 

That's my main point.

[dgalehouse]

My point is : If you think Margot , Guerra , Asuaje and Allen were an overpay for an elite closer like Kimbrel , who exactly do you think they might have brought in return ? Someone better than Kimbrel ?

[Kimmi]

My point is : If you think Margot , Guerra , Asuaje and Allen were an overpay for an elite closer like Kimbrel , who exactly do you think they might have brought in return ? Someone better than Kimbrel ?

 

Don't forget the amount of money that Kimbrel is being paid on top of the prospects.

 

I have no idea who was available or at what cost, so I fully acknowledge that what I would have liked to see may not be a reality. That said, I would have used those prospects as part of a package to trade for a young, cost controlled starter, like Sale.

[a700hitter]

Don't forget the amount of money that Kimbrel is being paid on top of the prospects.

 

I have no idea who was available or at what cost, so I fully acknowledge that what I would have liked to see may not be a reality. That said, I would have used those prospects as part of a package to trade for a young, cost controlled starter, like Sale.

Those bums were not going to get you Sale unless you threw them in on top of what we gave up for him anyway.

[dgalehouse]

Don't forget the amount of money that Kimbrel is being paid on top of the prospects.

 

I have no idea who was available or at what cost, so I fully acknowledge that what I would have liked to see may not be a reality. That said, I would have used those prospects as part of a package to trade for a young, cost controlled starter, like Sale.

A guy like Sale cannot be had for these kind of prospects. It took top of the line guys like Moncada and Kopech to get Sale. As it stands , the Kimbrel deal was clearly a good one. To still criticize it seems more like stubbornness than it does reality. As for the money , don't worry about it. This is a big market , highly profitable team. It is not a fantasy league.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I wouldn't have made the Kimbrel trade either. I have not with impressed with DD at all. I know Ben Cherington went through a rough stretch--failing to resign Lester, signing Sandoval, trading Lackey, acquiring Craig, signing Castillo--but maybe he would have learned from his mistakes and been a better GM going forward. Looking back at it now, I would have preferred keeping Cherington over the decision to hire DD. It should also be pointed out that some of those Ben Cherington mistakes may have been the responsibility of ownership--failing to pony up the money for Lester, for example.

 

DD's trades with the Red Sox have not been shrewd. He has generally overpaid in most of his moves and he has decimated the farm system. He is responsible for one draft and even though it is too early to reach a definitive conclusion about that draft, the results have not been promising. Groome fell into his lap and I agree with that pick--it was an easy choice--but none of the other picks have played particularly well. Though, again, it is too early to draw definitive conclusions.

 

Margot is a terrific all around player--he is only 22 years old. It is worth noting that the Red Sox traded Logan Allen in that deal as well. Right now, Logan Allen would be the Red Sox's second best pitching prospect after Groome--that's not a small thing. I thought Cashman handled the closer situation much better than DD. Cashman acquired Chapman in the same offseason and gave away B prospects. The Yankees then traded Chapman to the Cubs for Torres, one of the better prospects in the game. In turn, the Yankees resigned Chapman without giving up a draft pick. There is risk here--Chapman cost the Yankees a lot of money, but the Yankees did not part with any valuable chips in their farm system. The Yankees handled the closer situation like a true big market team--the Red Sox did not.

 

What is there to say about the Pomeranz deal? I realize that Espinoza is hurt right now, but he was a valuable trade chip--one of the best pitching prospects in the game and DD traded him for Pomeranz who has been completely useless. That's a bad use of resources. If the Red Sox are going to trade Espinoza, get someone who will help your big league team.

 

OK, Chris Sale has been great, but DD may have traded a future middle of the order bat (at 2b) for 3 years of Sale, not to mention the upside of a guy like Kopech. To justify that trade, not only must Sale perform, but the Red Sox have to compete for a championship and they are playing .500 baseball right now.

 

The Travis Shaw trade (Dubon too) for a guy who was recently moved to the 60-day DL. Not only do the Red Sox need Shaw at 3b, but they could use him at 1b as well--he is better than Moreland. It looks like the Red Sox may have failed to bring in enough offense in the offseason. They traded away their 3b backup plans in case Sandoval didn't work out, i.e., Moncada and Shaw. What is next for DD--trade Devers for some offense, the lack of which DD is directly responsible for, with the hope that the Red Sox can rise above their .500 record and make a run in the playoffs? DD will need to win a World Series over the next 3 seasons to justify these moves. If he comes up short, we might indeed look back at DD's tenure as a total disaster, a time when the GM emptied out the farm system to chase a phantom championship.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Meh]

OK, Chris Sale has been great, but DD may have traded a future middle of the order bat (at 2b) for 3 years of Sale, not to mention the upside of a guy like Kopech. To justify that trade, not only must Sale perform, but the Red Sox have to compete for a championship and they are playing .500 baseball right now.

 

 

Say what you want about DD other trades, yeah some of them have been questionable, but that Sale trade was one of those you got the best or one of the best pitchers in baseball and you gave up something. You're a team that has talent right now and could win right now. I think that was a good trade.

 

I'm curious to see what he does this trade deadline. I think he makes two moves, a larger one and a smaller one. I could see Moustakas in Boston come August.

[a700hitter]

Say what you want about DD other trades, yeah some of them have been questionable, but that Sale trade was one of those you got the best or one of the best pitchers in baseball and you gave up something. You're a team that has talent right now and could win right now. I think that was a good trade.

 

I'm curious to see what he does this trade deadline. I think he makes two moves, a larger one and a smaller one. I could see Moustakas in Boston come August.

Moustakas can handle 3B-- he is money with the glove. Edited May 15, 2017 by a700hitter

[Spudboy]

I wouldn't have made the Kimbrel trade either. I have not with impressed with DD at all. I know Ben Cherington went through a rough stretch--failing to resign Lester, signing Sandoval, trading Lackey, acquiring Craig, signing Castillo--but maybe he would have learned from his mistakes and been a better GM going forward. Looking back at it now, I would have preferred keeping Cherington over the decision to hire DD. It should also be pointed out that some of those Ben Cherington mistakes may have been the responsibility of ownership--failing to pony up the money for Lester, for example.

 

DD's trades with the Red Sox have not been shrewd. He has generally overpaid in most of his moves and he has decimated the farm system. He is responsible for one draft and even though it is too early to reach a definitive conclusion about that draft, the results have not been promising. Groome fell into his lap and I agree with that pick--it was an easy choice--but none of the other picks have played particularly well. Though, again, it is too early to draw definitive conclusions.

 

Margot is a terrific all around player--he is only 22 years old. It is worth noting that the Red Sox traded Logan Allen in that deal as well. Right now, Logan Allen would be the Red Sox's second best pitching prospect after Groome--that's not a small thing. I thought Cashman handled the closer situation much better than DD. Cashman acquired Chapman in the same offseason and gave away B prospects. The Yankees then traded Chapman to the Cubs for Torres, one of the better prospects in the game. In turn, the Yankees resigned Chapman without giving up a draft pick. There is risk here--Chapman cost the Yankees a lot of money, but the Yankees did not part with any valuable chips in their farm system. The Yankees handled the closer situation like a true big market team--the Red Sox did not.

 

What is there to say about the Pomeranz deal? I realize that Espinoza is hurt right now, but he was a valuable trade chip--one of the best pitching prospects in the game and DD traded him for Pomeranz who has been completely useless. That's a bad use of resources. If the Red Sox are going to trade Espinoza, get someone who will help your big league team.

 

OK, Chris Sale has been great, but DD may have traded a future middle of the order bat (at 2b) for 3 years of Sale, not to mention the upside of a guy like Kopech. To justify that trade, not only must Sale perform, but the Red Sox have to compete for a championship and they are playing .500 baseball right now.

 

The Travis Shaw trade (Dubon too) for a guy who was recently moved to the 60-day DL. Not only do the Red Sox need Shaw at 3b, but they could use him at 1b as well--he is better than Moreland. It looks like the Red Sox may have failed to bring in enough offense in the offseason. They traded away their 3b backup plans in case Sandoval didn't work out, i.e., Moncada and Shaw. What is next for DD--trade Devers for some offense, the lack of which DD is directly responsible for, with the hope that the Red Sox can rise above their .500 record and make a run in the playoffs? DD will need to win a World Series over the next 3 seasons to justify these moves. If he comes up short, we might indeed look back at DD's tenure as a total disaster, a time when the GM emptied out the farm system to chase a phantom championship.

 

Excellent post.

[Bellhorn04]

I wouldn't have made the Kimbrel trade either. I have not with impressed with DD at all. I know Ben Cherington went through a rough stretch--failing to resign Lester, signing Sandoval, trading Lackey, acquiring Craig, signing Castillo--but maybe he would have learned from his mistakes and been a better GM going forward. Looking back at it now, I would have preferred keeping Cherington over the decision to hire DD. It should also be pointed out that some of those Ben Cherington mistakes may have been the responsibility of ownership--failing to pony up the money for Lester, for example.

 

DD's trades with the Red Sox have not been shrewd. He has generally overpaid in most of his moves and he has decimated the farm system. He is responsible for one draft and even though it is too early to reach a definitive conclusion about that draft, the results have not been promising. Groome fell into his lap and I agree with that pick--it was an easy choice--but none of the other picks have played particularly well. Though, again, it is too early to draw definitive conclusions.

 

Margot is a terrific all around player--he is only 22 years old. It is worth noting that the Red Sox traded Logan Allen in that deal as well. Right now, Logan Allen would be the Red Sox's second best pitching prospect after Groome--that's not a small thing. I thought Cashman handled the closer situation much better than DD. Cashman acquired Chapman in the same offseason and gave away B prospects. The Yankees then traded Chapman to the Cubs for Torres, one of the better prospects in the game. In turn, the Yankees resigned Chapman without giving up a draft pick. There is risk here--Chapman cost the Yankees a lot of money, but the Yankees did not part with any valuable chips in their farm system. The Yankees handled the closer situation like a true big market team--the Red Sox did not.

 

What is there to say about the Pomeranz deal? I realize that Espinoza is hurt right now, but he was a valuable trade chip--one of the best pitching prospects in the game and DD traded him for Pomeranz who has been completely useless. That's a bad use of resources. If the Red Sox are going to trade Espinoza, get someone who will help your big league team.

 

OK, Chris Sale has been great, but DD may have traded a future middle of the order bat (at 2b) for 3 years of Sale, not to mention the upside of a guy like Kopech. To justify that trade, not only must Sale perform, but the Red Sox have to compete for a championship and they are playing .500 baseball right now.

 

The Travis Shaw trade (Dubon too) for a guy who was recently moved to the 60-day DL. Not only do the Red Sox need Shaw at 3b, but they could use him at 1b as well--he is better than Moreland. It looks like the Red Sox may have failed to bring in enough offense in the offseason. They traded away their 3b backup plans in case Sandoval didn't work out, i.e., Moncada and Shaw. What is next for DD--trade Devers for some offense, the lack of which DD is directly responsible for, with the hope that the Red Sox can rise above their .500 record and make a run in the playoffs? DD will need to win a World Series over the next 3 seasons to justify these moves. If he comes up short, we might indeed look back at DD's tenure as a total disaster, a time when the GM emptied out the farm system to chase a phantom championship.

 

I agree with most of this, but I think you're overpraising the Yankees for their 'handling of the closer situation'. They capitalized on some very unusual circumstances when they made that trade for Chapman, I'll leave it at that. Now their $86 million closer is on the DL. I hope he blows up in their faces.

[Bellhorn04]

The word seems to be out around the majors - if you're looking for a place to ship your damaged goods, Boston is the place. They'll give you lots in return. Best of all, even if they find out the goods are damaged, they'll still accept them!

[harmony]

Don't forget the amount of money that Kimbrel is being paid on top of the prospects.

 

I have no idea who was available or at what cost, so I fully acknowledge that what I would have liked to see may not be a reality. That said, I would have used those prospects as part of a package to trade for a young, cost controlled starter, like Sale.

That offseason Falmouth native Steve Cishek signed a two-year, $10 million contract with Seattle and proceeded to post better numbers than Craig Kimbrel in 2016.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cishest01.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kimbrcr01.shtml

 

The pendulum has swung in the other direction this year as Kimbrel has been stellar while an injury has postponed Cishek's season debut (which is expected shortly).

[sk7326]

I wouldn't have made the Kimbrel trade either. I have not with impressed with DD at all. I know Ben Cherington went through a rough stretch--failing to resign Lester, signing Sandoval, trading Lackey, acquiring Craig, signing Castillo--but maybe he would have learned from his mistakes and been a better GM going forward. Looking back at it now, I would have preferred keeping Cherington over the decision to hire DD. It should also be pointed out that some of those Ben Cherington mistakes may have been the responsibility of ownership--failing to pony up the money for Lester, for example.

 

DD's trades with the Red Sox have not been shrewd. He has generally overpaid in most of his moves and he has decimated the farm system. He is responsible for one draft and even though it is too early to reach a definitive conclusion about that draft, the results have not been promising. Groome fell into his lap and I agree with that pick--it was an easy choice--but none of the other picks have played particularly well. Though, again, it is too early to draw definitive conclusions.

 

Margot is a terrific all around player--he is only 22 years old. It is worth noting that the Red Sox traded Logan Allen in that deal as well. Right now, Logan Allen would be the Red Sox's second best pitching prospect after Groome--that's not a small thing. I thought Cashman handled the closer situation much better than DD. Cashman acquired Chapman in the same offseason and gave away B prospects. The Yankees then traded Chapman to the Cubs for Torres, one of the better prospects in the game. In turn, the Yankees resigned Chapman without giving up a draft pick. There is risk here--Chapman cost the Yankees a lot of money, but the Yankees did not part with any valuable chips in their farm system. The Yankees handled the closer situation like a true big market team--the Red Sox did not.

 

What is there to say about the Pomeranz deal? I realize that Espinoza is hurt right now, but he was a valuable trade chip--one of the best pitching prospects in the game and DD traded him for Pomeranz who has been completely useless. That's a bad use of resources. If the Red Sox are going to trade Espinoza, get someone who will help your big league team.

 

OK, Chris Sale has been great, but DD may have traded a future middle of the order bat (at 2b) for 3 years of Sale, not to mention the upside of a guy like Kopech. To justify that trade, not only must Sale perform, but the Red Sox have to compete for a championship and they are playing .500 baseball right now.

 

The Travis Shaw trade (Dubon too) for a guy who was recently moved to the 60-day DL. Not only do the Red Sox need Shaw at 3b, but they could use him at 1b as well--he is better than Moreland. It looks like the Red Sox may have failed to bring in enough offense in the offseason. They traded away their 3b backup plans in case Sandoval didn't work out, i.e., Moncada and Shaw. What is next for DD--trade Devers for some offense, the lack of which DD is directly responsible for, with the hope that the Red Sox can rise above their .500 record and make a run in the playoffs? DD will need to win a World Series over the next 3 seasons to justify these moves. If he comes up short, we might indeed look back at DD's tenure as a total disaster, a time when the GM emptied out the farm system to chase a phantom championship.

 

From scouting fwiw, there is very little chance Moncada stays at 2B (there is a reason more 2B look like Pedroia than like Dez Bryant).

 

Breathe - the team is playing .500ish ball ... just like the Cubs and the Guardians. They're 0.5 games out of a playoff spot. It has been a weird season so far - since the team has not actually been able to string anything together - good or bad.

 

You are right about the Pomeranz deal and the Kimbrel one to a point. Sale - the price hurts some, but he is a really great pitcher. So far, DD's tenure includes a playoff berth, and a team with good chances of adding more. Now that is not all him - but no reason to panic yet.

[Bellhorn04]

That offseason Falmouth native Steve Cishek signed a two-year, $10 million contract with Seattle and proceeded to post better numbers than Craig Kimbrel in 2016.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cishest01.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kimbrcr01.shtml

 

The pendulum has swung in the other direction this year as Kimbrel has been stellar while an injury has postponed Cishek's season debut (which is expected shortly).

 

Another possibility that was mentioned was trading for K-Rod, which Detroit did. That also looked pretty good last year and terrible this year.

[cp176]

The word seems to be out around the majors - if you're looking for a place to ship your damaged goods, Boston is the place. They'll give you lots in return. Best of all, even if they find out the goods are damaged, they'll still accept them!

 

i'm done defending DD for the Pomeranz trade although I still think that there is a chance that he could help us going forward. Saw an interview with Pomeranz yesterday and I was less than impressed. i like athletes to have some emotion. He looks and sounds like he has none. i'll add that what bothers me most about the trade at this time is not the fact that we lost Espinoza but that we possibly could and probably should have gotten more than Pomeranz in the trade. Even with all of his potential, the fact that we traded an 18 year old pitcher who really hasn't done much yet (I know - he is just a teenager)and who is currently injured and unable to pitch means nothing to me. The fact remains though that he could very well have brought us more and right now the trade looks terrible.

[a700hitter]

That offseason Falmouth native Steve Cishek signed a two-year, $10 million contract with Seattle and proceeded to post better numbers than Craig Kimbrel in 2016.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cishest01.shtml

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kimbrcr01.shtml

 

The pendulum has swung in the other direction this year as Kimbrel has been stellar while an injury has postponed Cishek's season debut (which is expected shortly).

Cishek was not and never has been proved high quality. There is no comparison. Apples and oranges. Sure you can get lucky picking up a guy who turns in a quality year and might even outperform an injured Kimbrel, but it is an entirely different type of asset.

[Jack Flap]

The Kimbrel of this year so far (in contrast to 2016) has been the guy we thought we were getting and then some. I still don't think it's a great deal, but it's one we should be able to live with if Kimbrel continues to pitch like an elite closer.

 

The Pomeranz deal is still the one I'd love to have back.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Jack Flap