DD Curse

[notin]

I only mention it because a lot of people drool over how Andrew Miller was used last year. He was only used that way because of Cody Allen. The Sox don't have that luxury right now.

 

Is Cody Allen really an elite reliever? Or do people think he's one because he's a closer? Statistically, he's not much different than Josh Fields or Shawn Kelley, two guys never referred to as elite.

[notin]

Well, that's what ballplayers are always talking about. That they want to feel comfortable and be able to be mentally ready.

 

 

I've actually never heard a ballplayer say he needs to know his role to be mentally prepared. I've heard scores of fans say ballplayers do, but never a ballplayer himself. ..

[S5Dewey]

Now I think you're a closet Sabrmetrician.

 

It's a good thing you and I go back to the old BDC days together or I'd take that personally!

 

[notin]

I think I've got it now. You can enhance your chances of winning by having Kimbrel pitch the 6th and using Ross or Kelly to close. In football , it is a good idea to go for it on 4th and 20 from your own 15 with a minute left in the half. NBA ? Have Isaiah Thomas shoot free throws underhanded. It worked for Barry. Now you are ready to succeed as a manager/head coach. Don't forget to bring your calculator. By the way, in hockey it might be great to pull the goalie in the 2nd period if trailing by a goal. The sooner you catch up , the better. Honestly , analytics have a use , but some of the deep thinkers want to reinvent the games and throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't foresee any teams adopting some of these " revolutionary " ideas any time soon. Billy Beane might actually win something before it happens. Don't hold your breath.

 

There was a time when using a "closer" as a ninth inning specialist was considered a revolutionary change. Were you similarly skeptical of that idea then? Way back in the 1980's?

[Emp9]

Is Cody Allen really an elite reliever? Or do people think he's one because he's a closer? Statistically, he's not much different than Josh Fields or Shawn Kelley, two guys never referred to as elite.

 

I think Miller makes him look bad. Kimbrel is better than Allen overall by about 15 points according to ERA-. Kimbrel has an extra year (2011) in which he was excellent, so that helps him, as it should.

[cp176]

There was a time when using a "closer" as a ninth inning specialist was considered a revolutionary change. Were you similarly skeptical of that idea then? Way back in the 1980's?

 

The expression wasn't used at all when Dick Radatz on Johnny Wyatt were doing their thing. But, alas, if they had to get more than 3 outs, they just did.

[cp176]

Farrell uses Kimbrel the same way virtually all the other managers use their closer.

 

Kudos to Farrell but I don't think that means he uses him the right way. He uses him the established way. Not bad necessarily, but sometimes it is ok to get maybe just a little creative. My guess is that unless he reads it or hears it someplace else, ain't happening with John. For the record (please) I still like JF.

[Bellhorn04]

Kudos to Farrell but I don't think that means he uses him the right way. He uses him the established way. Not bad necessarily, but sometimes it is ok to get maybe just a little creative. My guess is that unless he reads it or hears it someplace else, ain't happening with John. For the record (please) I still like JF.

 

Fans tend to be much more creative than managers, that's for sure.

[notin]

I think Miller makes him look bad. Kimbrel is better than Allen overall by about 15 points according to ERA-. Kimbrel has an extra year (2011) in which he was excellent, so that helps him, as it should.

 

I think Miller makes him look better because if the heart of the order is coming up in the ninth inning Miller pitches and Allen doesn't have to face those guys

[Emp9]

I think Miller makes him look better because if the heart of the order is coming up in the ninth inning Miller pitches and Allen doesn't have to face those guys

 

I just meant that Miller outshines Allen. I get why you like the more elite RP to face the more elite batters. Not for nothing, but it has obviously worked real well for the Guardians.

[cp176]

Fans tend to be much more creative than managers, that's for sure.

 

You might be right but he will not get a pass for many of the things that he does or does not do from me. Once again, I still do like him.

[mvp 78]

I've actually never heard a ballplayer say he needs to know his role to be mentally prepared. I've heard scores of fans say ballplayers do, but never a ballplayer himself. ..

 

Never heard Jerry Remy or Steve Lyons say it? You not watch NESN?

[Spudboy]

That's too funny Spud. I hope to one day have a beer together. You seem like a guy I could just hang out and listen to all your stories and be entertained for hours.....

 

Oh yes that would be fun. But I must warn you. My Mom says I'm a bore and a mindless oaf.

[S5Dewey]

Oh yes that would be fun. But I must warn you. My Mom says I'm a bore and a mindless oaf.

 

If this every comes to fruition, include me!

[Spudboy]

If this every comes to fruition, include me!

 

You got it Bubs.

[notin]

Never heard Jerry Remy or Steve Lyons say it? You not watch NESN?

 

I've heard those guys discuss needing to know they were starting, but not that relievers need defined roles to be effective.

 

I would agree that SOME relievers prefer defined roles, and for a wider variety of reasons than simply bring mentally prepared. But sweeping generalizations like that are almost never universal and there are probably as many our more pitchers who simply want the ball as often as possible. ...

[notin]

I also don't think Cody Allen is an elite reliever. ...

[SoxHop]

If this every comes to fruition, include me!

 

I think a bunch of the poeple on this board have hung out before......They seem to know each other pretty well.

 

I don't live in the East Coast any more and haven't for years...... but if I was there I'd look up some of these Sox fans for sure....

[SoxHop]

I'll tell you what I think.

 

I think there are two groups who want for this to stay the way it is, with a designated closer.

 

There's the manager who now doesn't have to be second-guessed for not using his closer in the 6th, even if the team lost the game.

 

And there's the "closer" who can get a lot more respect (and money!!) for being a successful designated closer than he ever could for being a guy who comes in to put out the fire in the 7th and then leaving the game.

 

But that's JMO, and a bit cynical one.

 

I agree with you completely....

 

Not that this board hasn't tackled this before on multiple occasions.

 

But someone mentioned that on some teams the actual best releiver isn't the closer. Taz when he was good was a good example of that role.

 

Like MVP is saying, I think you need a stopper, and then something like a closer. I'd say the stopper is more important. The closer kust has a cooler role.

[SinceYaz]

Stopper, closer, oh yeah, how about a fielder ... (Not Prince) ... Hembree's ERA will still look good even though he was tagged for 3 runs. Again, not DDs fault that the team seems to have forgotten how to field. But the team ERA as a bull pen is in the best three - but we lose because of mishandled balls. The ERA looks good, so the mystery remains, even to the talking heads, about what's wrong.

 

I hate to put it this way, but "see the ball, catch the ball, throw the ball to the right place on time."

 

Not DDs fault that somehow we have dropped the ball, literally, 8 times in 2 of the last 3 games. The pitchers have helped nail themselves ... Moreland is a Gold Glover, so is Pedey and Mookie, JBJ should be and Beni is good in the field too. Vaz and Sandy are both good behind the plate but both have had a hand in significant scoring opps for the opp.

 

We have got to start fielding well again. Hitting well again. Pitching well again.

 

Edgy each game, I am.

 

I know it's still early. I know we have been playing high calibre teams. But we are supposed to be winning against these teams.

 

Oh my gosh, I've turned into a whiner. I hate whiners.

 

I know we can play better and that is what I'll hang my hat on. But the curse of DD (bull pen issues) seems to be influencing this team, even though we who went through an extended drought of WSCs know nothing of curses. I don't really believe in them, but that doesn't disallow for certain patterns to come to the fore.

 

If JF ends up last, fourth or even third with this team, we will know we should have kept Lovullo. Oops, there goes the whiner again. Damn curses.

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, Abad "helped" again ... that is directly DDs fault.

Edited May 2, 2017 by SinceYaz

[Bellhorn04]

I also don't think Cody Allen is an elite reliever. ...

 

Allen may not have been elite throughout his career but I think he is clearly elite now. If you go back over the last year he's one of the best pitchers in the game.

 

May 1-Oct 1/16

 

IP 57.2

ER 11

H 32

BB 22

K 78

 

2016 postseason

 

IP 13.2

ER 0

H 8

BB 5

K 24

 

2017 (ridiculous)

 

IP 10

ER 1

H 10

BB 1

K 20

 

Total

 

IP 81.1

ER 12

H 50

BB 28

K 122

[Wade Boggs]

They went into the season hoping Panda would have a bounce back year... He's not. We have no power stick at third base or no adequate glove as well. Should have they ate the money , on panda and kept Shaw. Turner was an option from the dodgers. It doesn't matter major hole. Please please spare me MH he's a utility player who should play over Holt and Rutledge. He's not an everyday player.

 

Moreland is fine but they could upgrade. His bat stinks right now3/30 slump, he has played everyday. Could use a rest. They are trying 2give him a rest. But Hanley doesn't want first and they have no back-up first baseman.

 

I know it's only May. I get it.

But where has MB/XB power gone. Ortiz isn't there for protection but HANRAM is there.

 

They just can't afford 2 play under 500 ball with Sale/ Porcello pitching.....not good.

 

Base running mistakes

Missing cut off man

Not hitting RISP

 

Trying posting this from an iPhone sucks from my part.

[Bellhorn04]

They went into the season hoping Panda would have a bounce back year... He's not. We have no power stick at third base or no adequate glove as well. Should have they ate the money , on panda and kept Shaw. Turner was an option from the dodgers. It doesn't matter major hole. Please please spare me MH he's a utility player who should play over Holt and Rutledge. He's not an everyday player.

 

Moreland is fine but they could upgrade. His bat stinks right now3/30 slump, he has played everyday. Could use a rest. They are trying 2give him a rest. But Hanley doesn't want first and they have no back-up first baseman.

 

I know it's only May. I get it.

But where has MB/XB power gone. Ortiz isn't there for protection but HANRAM is there.

 

They just can't afford 2 play under 500 ball with Sale/ Porcello pitching.....not good.

 

Base running mistakes

Missing cut off man

Not hitting RISP

 

Trying posting this from an iPhone sucks from my part.

 

Actually it's a good post-and very concise.

[Wade Boggs]

Allen may not be elite. But he pretty close. He may not be up there with Chapman, Britten, Jansen, but he's real close. He's a strike throwing machine.

 

He saves the games what more do they want out if a closer.

 

Just can't go 1-2-3 and throw 100 and K the side every time. If it was that easy Joe Kelly would be a closer lol

[Emp9]

They went into the season hoping Panda would have a bounce back year... He's not. We have no power stick at third base or no adequate glove as well. Should have they ate the money , on panda and kept Shaw. Turner was an option from the dodgers. It doesn't matter major hole. Please please spare me MH he's a utility player who should play over Holt and Rutledge. He's not an everyday player.

 

Moreland is fine but they could upgrade. His bat stinks right now3/30 slump, he has played everyday. Could use a rest. They are trying 2give him a rest. But Hanley doesn't want first and they have no back-up first baseman.

 

I know it's only May. I get it.

But where has MB/XB power gone. Ortiz isn't there for protection but HANRAM is there.

 

They just can't afford 2 play under 500 ball with Sale/ Porcello pitching.....not good.

 

Base running mistakes

Missing cut off man

Not hitting RISP

 

Trying posting this from an iPhone sucks from my part.

 

I miss my iphone5, the 7 is too wide to type comfortably on

[notin]

Allen may not be elite. But he pretty close. He may not be up there with Chapman, Britten, Jansen, but he's real close. He's a strike throwing machine.

 

He saves the games what more do they want out if a closer.

 

Just can't go 1-2-3 and throw 100 and K the side every time. If it was that easy Joe Kelly would be a closer lol

 

I wouldn't put Allen anywhere near those names.

 

If you look at his past one year sample, as Bellhorn did, he is good, but he's also been as effective as plenty of othet lesser names, like Dan Otero, Addison Reed, Tyler Thornburg, Mychal Givens, Matt Bush, etc.

 

He's a good reliever, but he isn't some special commodity that enables Cleveland to operate their bullpen differently. Francona chooses to do so because he's a brilliant manager. Oakland is basically doing the same thing with Santiago Casilla facing the tougher hitters and, if there is still a save to be had, then it goes to Sean Doolittle or Ryan Madsen (lately it seems to be Doolittle).

 

None of them would be considered elite relievers at this point in their careers, although there may have been a time you might say that about Madsen or Doolittle, but injuries have changed that. ..

[notin]

Also Allen relies heavily on deception. He really cannot throw his slider for strikes and relies on hitters chasing it. Which is fine and appears to be working for him. But one day, hitters will learn to lay off it. Then what?

[Bellhorn04]

I wouldn't put Allen anywhere near those names.

 

If you look at his past one year sample, as Bellhorn did, he is good, but he's also been as effective as plenty of othet lesser names, like Dan Otero, Addison Reed, Tyler Thornburg, Mychal Givens, Matt Bush, etc.

 

He's a good reliever, but he isn't some special commodity that enables Cleveland to operate their bullpen differently. Francona chooses to do so because he's a brilliant manager. Oakland is basically doing the same thing with Santiago Casilla facing the tougher hitters and, if there is still a save to be had, then it goes to Sean Doolittle or Ryan Madsen (lately it seems to be Doolittle).

 

I'm going to challenge this point about Allen being left with easy saves against the weak part of the lineup. In the 2016 postseason, 6 of his 10 appearances were more than an inning. In the series against us he got 5 outs and 4 outs, and in both games the first hitter he faced was Big Papi.

 

Is this assertion based on game logs or the way you remember things?

[notin]

It was how I remembered Allen being used. But I did review his game logs from after the day Miller was acquired. After that date, all of his saves started off facing a hitter batting sixth or lower, with one exception where he came in to face the cleanup hitter. But that hitter was Jeffrey Marte, so not really a feared guy. And after him was Jeff Bandy. Conversely Miller had 3 saves and all started off facing the hitters at or near the top of the order.

 

Francona managed differently in the post-season, because his staff was short-handed without Carrasco and Salazar. So he was using Miller a lot earlier and more often...

[Bellhorn04]

It was how I remembered Allen being used. But I did review his game logs from after the day Miller was acquired. After that date, all of his saves started off facing a hitter batting sixth or lower, with one exception where he came in to face the cleanup hitter. But that hitter was Jeffrey Marte, so not really a feared guy. And after him was Jeff Bandy. Conversely Miller had 3 saves and all started off facing the hitters at or near the top of the order.

 

Francona managed differently in the post-season, because his staff was short-handed without Carrasco and Salazar. So he was using Miller a lot earlier and more often...

 

He was able to manage a little differently because of all the off-days, too.