3rd Third III

[Bellhorn04]

I have a horrible feeling that DD doesn't think he has a hole at 3B, at least not a longterm one. That he's still waiting for the face-saving, franchise-altering mirage that is "a healthy Pablo Sandoval."

 

Heck, I wouldn't worry about that at all.

[Emp9]

The Royals are 3 behind the Guardians for first place; 2 and 1/2 behind the Yankees for the first wild card; 1/2 behind the Rays for the second wild card. I think we can forget about Moustakas. The Royals will probably be buyers at the trade deadline--not sellers.

 

I like Josh Harrison idea better. Not sure how much he would cost in a trade though. ?

[moonslav59]

I would be okay with this type of trade. Like you, I am hoping not to have to part with Groome, Devers, or Travis. I don't see our situation at 3B as being as urgent as our need for a starting pitcher was last year.

 

Whilke I do value a starting pitching rotation slot more than 3B, our 3B position, in relation to the rest of the league, is way worse than our 5th starter was last year when we acquired Pom.

 

I'm afraid DD might think we need to go large at 3B to get us a ring this year.

 

Trading Espi for a 4/5 slot starter is evidence of just how far he will go.

[moonslav59]

I have a horrible feeling that DD doesn't think he has a hole at 3B, at least not a longterm one. That he's still waiting for the face-saving, franchise-altering mirage that is "a healthy Pablo Sandoval."

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Sox management gives Pablo a 3 week period to win back the job before pulling the trigger(s).

 

I'm not sure I'd say that DD expects Pablo to succeed.

[notin]

I have a horrible feeling that DD doesn't think he has a hole at 3B, at least not a longterm one. That he's still waiting for the face-saving, franchise-altering mirage that is "a healthy Pablo Sandoval."

 

While he may not view 3b as the primary need, I do not think that Sandoval is a face-saving player for Dombrowski. Sandoval's a Cherington blemish...

[notin]

I like Josh Harrison idea better. Not sure how much he would cost in a trade though. ?

 

Onev problem that the Sox will face when making deals is the lack of MLB-ready talent to deal. If they want to get a worthwhile player, there can't be an Untouchable List. Donaldson, for example, would be great. But the Jays aren't trading him to Boston if Devers, Travis and Groome are all off the table.

 

Prospects don't get the types of packages they did 2 and 3 years ago. If the Sox want a good player for 3b, especially one with some control, a package of Chavis, Ockimey, and Swihart won't cut it...

[moonslav59]

While he may not view 3b as the primary need, I do not think that Sandoval is a face-saving player for Dombrowski. Sandoval's a Cherington blemish...

 

But, it was DD who traded Shaw and put all the 3b eggs in the Pablo basket.

[cp176]

Whilke I do value a starting pitching rotation slot more than 3B, our 3B position, in relation to the rest of the league, is way worse than our 5th starter was last year when we acquired Pom.

 

I'm afraid DD might think we need to go large at 3B to get us a ring this year.

 

Trading Espi for a 4/5 slot starter is evidence of just how far he will go.

 

With respect to the Espinoza for Pomeranz trade. A teenager with basically no experience was traded for a big lefty in his 20's who had the potential to pitch like he is currently pitching for us. It was not a win now at all costs trade. I'm sorry but I saw this as a winning trade for our side not just for right now. I get the fact that many did not and do not still like this particular deal. That is ok. That's us doing the fan thing.

[S5Dewey]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sox management gives Pablo a 3 week period to win back the job before pulling the trigger(s).

 

I'm not sure I'd say that DD expects Pablo to succeed.

 

OMG I don't want to see that guy out there for a dozen consecutive games! I've seen Lin and Marrero make plays in the past few games that Pablo could only dream of making.

Please, DD. Do not give up defense at 3B just to save face.

[a700hitter]

With respect to the Espinoza for Pomeranz trade. A teenager with basically no experience was traded for a big lefty in his 20's who had the potential to pitch like he is currently pitching for us. It was not a win now at all costs trade. I'm sorry but I saw this as a winning trade for our side not just for right now. I get the fact that many did not and do not still like this particular deal. That is ok. That's us doing the fan thing.

Pomeranz is a big part of this team's rotation. We are rolling out a legitimately good starter every 5th day in the 4/5 hole at the cost of $4 million/year. Unless Espi becomes Pedro, this trade didn't mortgage our future, it helped builf the present and the future. This guy is not the tomato can that most teams have in their 4/5 slots. He is a good pitcher.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I would be okay with this type of trade. Like you, I am hoping not to have to part with Groome, Devers, or Travis. I don't see our situation at 3B as being as urgent as our need for a starting pitcher was last year.

 

I'm not seeing the love for Travis. There is a huge drop-off from Devers and Groome to Travis, IMO. I wouldn't hesitate to trade Travis for a starting 3b. I'm not convinced Travis is in the Red Sox's long term plans--he might not be good enough to be a starting 1b for a big market team with championship aspirations. I see Travis, Chavis, and Ockimey as the Red Sox's main trade chips. 3b is confusing in that the Red Sox have to weigh trading for a Lowrie-Frazier type versus giving the starting job to Devers (I think it is clear that Moustakas will not be made available). The other interesting twist: could a player like J.Donaldson or M.Machado be made available if the Jays or Orioles decide to enter a rebuild phase? That would be interesting, but the Red Sox would have to pony up a prospect like Devers for that kind of talent (I presume). This is probably a long shot--the Jays and Orioles can still aim for the second wild card this year. If they decide to enter a rebuild phase, that decision will likely be made in the off-season.

 

I think the Red Sox are done with Sandoval as a starting 3b. Right now, they are trying to determine if they should keep Sandoval as a bench player or release him. If he doesn't hit in AAA during his rehab assignment, I think they release him. As was mentioned above, Marrero actually contributes more than Sandoval in that Marrero helps the Red Sox with run prevention; Sandoval doesn't help in any capacity. In other words, Marrero is actually a better player than Sandoval.

 

Maybe the Red Sox should play some combination of Holt (AAA rehab) and Marrero at third base until they promote Devers later in the season? In this scenario, the Red Sox could use their trade chips to reinforce another area of the club. I'm not a huge believer in B.Holt, though. As such, maybe platoon Lin and Marrero until Devers takes over later in the season.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[a700hitter]

OMG I don't want to see that guy out there for a dozen consecutive games! I've seen Lin and Marrero make plays in the past few games that Pablo could only dream of making.

Please, DD. Do not give up defense at 3B just to save face.

What is wrong with the human bean bag now. I have lost track of him. I don't think he factors into any plans. You don't disappear from your teams plans because you have an earache.

[oldtimer]

OMG I don't want to see that guy out there for a dozen consecutive games! I've seen Lin and Marrero make plays in the past few games that Pablo could only dream of making.

Please, DD. Do not give up defense at 3B just to save face.

 

I don't expect the FO to bring Pablo back unless he shows in a rehab assignment that he is capable of playing better then our current options. It is difficult to imagine that this will happen for Pablo as he has already had the opportunity and it hasn't gone well.

[oldtimer]

I'm not seeing the love for Travis. There is a huge drop-off from Devers and Groome to Travis, IMO. I wouldn't hesitate to trade Travis for a starting 3b. I'm not convinced Travis is in the Red Sox's long term plans--he might not be good enough to be a starting 1b for a big market team with championship aspirations. I see Travis, Chavis, and Ockimey as the Red Sox's main trade chips. 3b is confusing in that the Red Sox have to weigh trading for a Lowrie-Frazier type versus giving the starting job to Devers (I think it is clear that Moustakas will not be made available). The other interesting twist: could a player like J.Donaldson or M.Machado be made available if the Jays or Orioles decide to enter a rebuild phase? That would be interesting, but the Red Sox would have to pony up a prospect like Devers for that kind of talent (I presume). This is probably a long shot--the Jays and Orioles can still aim for the second wild card this year. If they decide to enter a rebuild phase, that decision will likely be made in the off-season.

 

I think the Red Sox are done with Sandoval as a starting 3b. Right now, they are trying to determine if they should keep Sandoval as a bench player or release him. If he doesn't hit in AAA during his rehab assignment, I think they release him. As was mentioned above, Marrero actually contributes more than Sandoval in that Marrero helps the Red Sox with run prevention; Sandoval doesn't help in any capacity. In other words, Marrero is actually a better player than Sandoval.

 

Maybe the Red Sox should play some combination of Holt (AAA rehab) and Marrero at third base until they promote Devers later in the season? In this scenario, the Red Sox could use their trade chips to reinforce another area of the club. I'm not a huge believer in B.Holt, though. As such, maybe platoon Lin and Marrero until Devers takes over later in the season.

 

One thing that occurs to me is that our rookie players in Travis and for that matter Beni and having their struggles adapting to MLB level play. it takes time, even for some talented rookies to make significant contributions. Devers may also have quite a bit of talent based on his rating at the minor league level, but he too would likely take some time to adapt to the MLs. Meanwhile we need help at 3rd. I doubt Marerro is a long term answer and I gave up on Pablo so am looking for DD to make a more significant move in that regard.

[S5Dewey]

One thing that occurs to me is that our rookie players in Travis and for that matter Beni and having their struggles adapting to MLB level play. it takes time, even for some talented rookies to make significant contributions. Devers may also have quite a bit of talent based on his rating at the minor league level, but he too would likely take some time to adapt to the MLs. Meanwhile we need help at 3rd. I doubt Marerro is a long term answer and I gave up on Pablo so am looking for DD to make a more significant move in that regard.

 

I've been thinking about this kind of thing myself. There's usually a transition period between AAA and MLB when a player's "holes" are found and he has to make adjustments. Are we going to be patient with Devers if he comes up and struggles with that transition period in the middle of a pennant race?

 

My opinion FWIW is that Farrell is that since Marrero is hitting now the FO is going to ride that horse until it drops... if it does. And if it doesn't (long shot) everything is great!

[Kimmi]

I'm not seeing the love for Travis. There is a huge drop-off from Devers and Groome to Travis, IMO. I wouldn't hesitate to trade Travis for a starting 3b. I'm not convinced Travis is in the Red Sox's long term plans--he might not be good enough to be a starting 1b for a big market team with championship aspirations. I see Travis, Chavis, and Ockimey as the Red Sox's main trade chips. 3b is confusing in that the Red Sox have to weigh trading for a Lowrie-Frazier type versus giving the starting job to Devers (I think it is clear that Moustakas will not be made available). The other interesting twist: could a player like J.Donaldson or M.Machado be made available if the Jays or Orioles decide to enter a rebuild phase? That would be interesting, but the Red Sox would have to pony up a prospect like Devers for that kind of talent (I presume). This is probably a long shot--the Jays and Orioles can still aim for the second wild card this year. If they decide to enter a rebuild phase, that decision will likely be made in the off-season.

 

I think the Red Sox are done with Sandoval as a starting 3b. Right now, they are trying to determine if they should keep Sandoval as a bench player or release him. If he doesn't hit in AAA during his rehab assignment, I think they release him. As was mentioned above, Marrero actually contributes more than Sandoval in that Marrero helps the Red Sox with run prevention; Sandoval doesn't help in any capacity. In other words, Marrero is actually a better player than Sandoval.

 

Maybe the Red Sox should play some combination of Holt (AAA rehab) and Marrero at third base until they promote Devers later in the season? In this scenario, the Red Sox could use their trade chips to reinforce another area of the club. I'm not a huge believer in B.Holt, though. As such, maybe platoon Lin and Marrero until Devers takes over later in the season.

 

I have Travis pegged as our long term 1B. Maybe I'm being more optimistic than I should be, but from what I've read and seen, he would be solid at that position. Perhaps more importantly, he would be cost controlled. I would hate to see him traded, leaving another hole in our impending cliff.

 

I'm no longer convinced, as I once was, that we've seen the last of Pablo. I think that depends on how well he does in his rehab assignment.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

One thing that occurs to me is that our rookie players in Travis and for that matter Beni and having their struggles adapting to MLB level play. it takes time, even for some talented rookies to make significant contributions. Devers may also have quite a bit of talent based on his rating at the minor league level, but he too would likely take some time to adapt to the MLs. Meanwhile we need help at 3rd. I doubt Marerro is a long term answer and I gave up on Pablo so am looking for DD to make a more significant move in that regard.

 

Interesting. I'm starting to wonder if the Red Sox plan to play start Devers at 3b toward the end of the season and into the playoffs. Thus, Devers would pretty much finish out the minor league season and then would be brought up and would get some experience in major league games, with the idea of starting him at 3b in the playoffs. The idea behind this: minimize Devers' exposure to major league pitching so that pitchers don't adjust and exploit his weaknesses this season.

 

I have Travis pegged as our long term 1B.

I'm just not sure if his bat is ever going to be good enough....

Edited July 3, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[moonslav59]

With respect to the Espinoza for Pomeranz trade. A teenager with basically no experience was traded for a big lefty in his 20's who had the potential to pitch like he is currently pitching for us. It was not a win now at all costs trade. I'm sorry but I saw this as a winning trade for our side not just for right now. I get the fact that many did not and do not still like this particular deal. That is ok. That's us doing the fan thing.

 

Espi had a lot of value. Though he was "far away" he was ranked very highly for a kid that young. True, he could flop, but his upside was enormous.

 

Again, I was never against trading Espi, in fact, I suggested several larger package moves that included him. I'm very happy with what Pom is giving us now, and I'd love nothing better than to have to admit I was very very wrong.

[moonslav59]

OMG I don't want to see that guy out there for a dozen consecutive games! I've seen Lin and Marrero make plays in the past few games that Pablo could only dream of making.

Please, DD. Do not give up defense at 3B just to save face.

 

I'm finished with Pablo. I did not mean to imply I want DD to give him a 3 week chance at the ML level.

[moonslav59]

Interesting. I'm starting to wonder if the Red Sox plan to play start Devers at 3b toward the end of the season and into the playoffs. Thus, Devers would pretty much finish out the minor league season and then would be brought up and would get some experience in major league games, with the idea of starting him at 3b in the playoffs. The idea behind this: minimize Devers' exposure to major league pitching so that pitchers don't adjust and exploit his weaknesses this season.

 

Awful risky making that the plan. If we don't trade for someone and hope Devers can ignite a spark at 3B towards the end of the year, and it doesn't work, then we're back to where we are now but with no other options.

 

[Travis] I'm just not sure if his bat is ever going to be good enough....

 

Maybe not, but we may have to give him an extended look, so we can save budget space for others. If he flops, at least it's easy to find capable 1Bmen on the cheap (see L Morrison & Moreland).

[cp176]

Espi had a lot of value. Though he was "far away" he was ranked very highly for a kid that young. True, he could flop, but his upside was enormous.

 

Again, I was never against trading Espi, in fact, I suggested several larger package moves that included him. I'm very happy with what Pom is giving us now, and I'd love nothing better than to have to admit I was very very wrong.

 

I already get this. You have said it before. I absolutely understand your reasoning as well. I'm not just being a contrarian. it is my opinion that often times even the folks doing the scouting sing the praises of some of these very young kids who probably would benefit from actually getting an education before they sign on the dotted line. I saw all of the videos I'm thinking that you saw. Too many ifs for me though. Obviously I'm not as high as some when signing kids who don't shave yet. I do hope that he becomes what many think he can become. I was happy with the trade then and I am happier now. I know that you have heard that from me as well.

[moonslav59]

I already get this. You have said it before. I absolutely understand your reasoning as well. I'm not just being a contrarian. it is my opinion that often times even the folks doing the scouting sing the praises of some of these very young kids who probably would benefit from actually getting an education before they sign on the dotted line. I saw all of the videos I'm thinking that you saw. Too many ifs for me though. Obviously I'm not as high as some when signing kids who don't shave yet. I do hope that he becomes what many think he can become. I was happy with the trade then and I am happier now. I know that you have heard that from me as well.

 

Yes, and I respect your opinion as well.

 

I will say, I sure am glad we have Pom in the rotation right now.

[notin]

But, it was DD who traded Shaw and put all the 3b eggs in the Pablo basket.

 

Which was remarkably stupid considering the short leash Sandoval has always been on. They basically put him the 60 day DL if he gets soap suds in his eye. ..

[Station 13]

They trade Shaw to get a set up man, it wasn't all about Sandoflop.

[Emp9]

Which was remarkably stupid considering the short leash Sandoval has always been on. They basically put him the 60 day DL if he gets soap suds in his eye. ..

 

lol

[Station 13]

But, it was DD who traded Shaw and put all the 3b eggs in the Pablo basket.

The injuries to Holt sucked. He was going to cover most of what Pablow inevitable shortcomings.

[moonslav59]

The injuries to Holt sucked. He was going to cover most of what Pablow inevitable shortcomings.

 

Holt's unspectacular 3B play in 2014 was part of the reason we signed Pablo in the first place.

 

Holt should not have been counted on as a reliable long term solution at 3B, if Pablo failed.

 

It's one thing to blame Ben for signing Pablo, but DD saw what we all saw and put too much faith in Pablo.

 

I can't complain though. I thought our pen was our weakest link, and I liked the Thornburg trade. I assumed he was healthy.

[moonslav59]

The injuries to Holt sucked. He was going to cover most of what Pablow inevitable shortcomings.

 

i had Marco ahead of Holt on the 3B depth chart on opening day.

[Station 13]

Shaw didn't look great either in the latter half of 2016. But that Shaw is better than Sandoflop.

[moonslav59]

Shaw didn't look great either in the latter half of 2016. But that Shaw is better than Sandoflop.

 

The second half Shaw was not much better than Pablo-Hernandez-Rutledge-Holt-Marrero-Lin in 2017.

 

Shaw hit .194/.259/.360 the second half last year. His WAR was -0.1.

 

This year's 3B mess totals .226/.278/.327, but the combined WAR is worse, thanks to pitiful defense at -0.8,