3rd Third III

[Jasonbay44]

How about Beltre? Not a rental. Would you move one of your choice guys for what remains of Beltre's deal?

 

If I am "going for it" this year I would strongly consider it.

 

I don't see any of the guys mentioned doing much for this team other than Moose and he won't be available.

 

To me, Beltre makes sense.

I wouldn't move Devers, but Travis + for Beltre I would be in for. Beltre is an upgrade all over the board. elite defense and hitting for his position and is one of best clubhouse guys in baseball. Even at 38 he's still REALLY good.

[moonslav59]

How about Beltre? Not a rental. Would you move one of your choice guys for what remains of Beltre's deal?

 

If I am "going for it" this year I would strongly consider it.

 

I don't see any of the guys mentioned doing much for this team other than Moose and he won't be available.

 

To me, Beltre makes sense.

 

Tough call, but it looks like resetting the tax this year would allow us to pay for Beltre next year.

 

It will take more than Travis to get Beltre. It might take Groome & Travis or Groome, Lakins, Lin & Beeks.

 

I'd have to think about it longer, but I'm not saying "no."

[OH FOY]

Sandoval come's off the DL July 17th (rehab), and Holt the 20th. Yankee series might be big for the kids, for decisions. Edited July 11, 2017 by OH FOY!

[Hugh2]

I'd be ok with Beltre coming here. He's under contract for another year as well. He might be the perfect mentor for a guy like Rafael Devers and Beltre has plenty bat to DH if we don't want him playing the field every day at 39.

[OH FOY]

3rd base is a reaction position, Beltre looks like he has lost nothing there. He has lost nothing on his arm too. But your right a day off here and there, not a bad DH either. Edited July 11, 2017 by OH FOY!

[Dojji]

Love to have Beltre. Or we can let Chewy try to hold down the job until he proves he can't do it but if we're shooting for the postseason I think you want the professional if the price is reasonable, with Chewy as an injury reserve.

[Nick]

I'm not sure if we sign Betre, we can stay under the cap.

[moonslav59]

ERod is expected to join the club on the 17th.

 

Some roster decisions are ahead.

[fxkatt]

Why or why did we ever let Beltre go. He's been nothing but a first class hitter and fielder ever since.

[moonslav59]

Why or why did we ever let Beltre go. He's been nothing but a first class hitter and fielder ever since.

 

I'm not defending the decision, but I think the philosophy was to let good players go, gain the comp picks and then use the money to sign other equal or better FAs. The theory is sound, but failed signings undermined the plan.

 

Our history of comp picks is pretty impressive though.

 

1999

Casey Fossum (For losing Greg Swindell)

2005

Jacoby Ellsbury & Jed Lowrie (Orlandoi Cabrera)

Clay Buchholz (Pedro Martinez)

Craig Hansen & Michael Bowden (Derek Lowe)

2006

Daniel Bard (J Damon)

2010

Anthony Ranaudo (Billy Wagner)

B Workman & B Brentz (Jason Bay)

2011

Matt Barnes & Henry Owens (VMart)

Jackie Bradley & B Swihart (Beltre)

2012

Brian Johnson & D Marrero (Papelbon)

2014

Michael Kopech (Jacoby Ellsbury)

 

Some of these players were traded for significant players. Think how we traded Nomar way back in 2004. We got OCab in return and ended up and we got Holt for Melancon. It's amazing how some of those decisions made over a decade ago are still rippling into the present day roster construction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[a700hitter]

I'm not defending the decision, but I think the philosophy was to let good players go, gain the comp picks and then use the money to sign other equal or better FAs. The theory is sound, but failed signings undermined the plan.

 

Our history of comp picks is pretty impressive though.

 

1999

Casey Fossum (For losing Greg Swindell)

2005

Jacoby Ellsbury & Jed Lowrie (Orlandoi Cabrera)

Clay Buchholz (Pedro Martinez)

Craig Hansen & Michael Bowden (Derek Lowe)

2006

Daniel Bard (J Damon)

2010

Anthony Ranaudo (Billy Wagner)

B Workman & B Brentz (Jason Bay)

2011

Matt Barnes & Henry Owens (VMart)

Jackie Bradley & B Swihart (Beltre)

2012

Brian Johnson & D Marrero (Papelbon)

2014

Michael Kopech (Jacoby Ellsbury)

 

Some of these players were traded for significant players. Think how we traded Nomar way back in 2004. We got OCab in return and ended up and we got Holt for Melancon. It's amazing how some of those decisions made over a decade ago are still rippling into the present day roster construction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's not an impressive success ratio.

[moonslav59]

That's not an impressive success ratio.

 

Most of the picks were supplemental picks coming after the first round. In that context, we got some good players.

 

(Note: I did not list players that flopped, so the percent of success is worse than shown here.)

[OH FOY]

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2016/06/10/best-red-sox-draft-picks

 

Good read.

[notin]

With Sandoval, Holt, Marrero, Lin, and Peralta already in house, will third base even be a focus between now and July 31?

[notin]

Most of the picks were supplemental picks coming after the first round. In that context, we got some good players.

 

(Note: I did not list players that flopped, so the percent of success is worse than shown here.)

 

So no Jonathan Egan and Michael Bowden.

 

But yes tbe Sox overall draft history was crazy impressive under Epstein. His 2011 draft was probably the single most productive one in MLB history. ..

[mvp 78]

So no Jonathan Egan and Michael Bowden.

 

But yes tbe Sox overall draft history was crazy impressive under Epstein. His 2011 draft was probably the single most productive one in MLB history. ..

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/127539444/dodgers-class-of-1968-tops-list-of-10-best-drafts/

 

Nope. That 1968 Dodgers class will never be topped.

 

Los Angeles signed six future All-Stars in 1968 who would combine for 23 All-Star Game appearances, both Draft records. Washburn (Kan.) University outfielder Davey Lopes was a second-rounder in the January secondary phase, while California high school first baseman Bill Buckner (second), University of Houston outfielder/defensive back Tom Paciorek (fifth) and Alabama prep right-hander Doyle Alexander (ninth) were part of the regular June Draft. The cherry on top was a pair of college third basemen in the June secondary phase: Michigan State's Steve Garvey (first) and Washington State's Ron Cey (third).

University of Michigan left-hander Geoff Zahn (fifth, January secondary), Connecticut high school outfielder Bobby Valentine (No. 5 overall, June) and University of the Pacific outfielder Joe Ferguson (eighth, June) also enjoyed lengthy careers. The Dodgers inked a total of 11 future big leaguers who combined for a total of 235.6 Wins Above Replacement (Baseball-Reference version), another record.

[moonslav59]

So no Jonathan Egan and Michael Bowden.

 

But yes tbe Sox overall draft history was crazy impressive under Epstein. His 2011 draft was probably the single most productive one in MLB history. ..

 

I listed Bowden, but left severaal non factor players off my list.

 

It wasn't meant to be a list that showed the percent of supplemental- picked players that helped, but rather it was meant to show that we did get some good players by letting player go to free agency.

 

In my opinion, Theo did a fantastic job at knowing when to let our big players go. A few turned out to be questionable, most notably Beltre, VMart & Damon, but even in those cases, an argument can be made that the right choice was made.

 

I was very happy with Theo's drafts, and many of those drafts were successful as a result of those supplemental picks.

 

The 2005 draft, which is widely believed to be one of our best ever, was almost totally supplemental picks:

23 Ellsbury (OCab)

26 Hansen (DeLowe) traded with Manny for Jason Bay

42 Buchholz (Pedro)

45 Lowrie (OCab) Trade for Melancon who was traded for Holt

47 Bowden (DeLowe)

57 J Egan (Pedro)

 

Theo did have a stretch, where most of his first picks were from #25-55, that did not look that good:

 

2006:

27 Jason Place

40 Kris Johnson

44 Caleb Clay

71 Masterson

 

2007

55 Nick Hagadone

62 Ryan Dent

 

2008

30 Casey Kelly

45 Bryan Price

 

2009

28 Reymond Fuentes

77 Alex Wilson

 

2010

20 Kolbrin Vitek

36 Bryce Brentz (Supp pick)

39 Anthony Ranaudo (Supp pick)

57 Brandon Workman (Supp pick)

 

The turn around begins:

2011 (Note" all supp picks!)

19 Barnes (Supp)

26 Swihart (Supp)

36 Owens (Supp)

40 Bradley Supp)

 

The Ben era begins

24 Marrero

31 Johnson (Supp)

37 Light (Supp)

87 Callahan

 

Theo drafted Pedey in the second round of 2004, but how many other great picks in the top 80 did he have that were not supplemental picks?

 

His highest draft picks from 2005 to 2011 (his last draft with the Sox)

19 Barnes

20 Vitek

26 Swihart

27 Place

28 Fuentes

30 Kelly

'

From 2006 to 2010, Theo's draft picks were far from "impressive".

 

Without the supplemental picks, his overall draft record would be unimpressive.

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/127539444/dodgers-class-of-1968-tops-list-of-10-best-drafts/

 

Nope. That 1968 Dodgers class will never be topped.

 

Los Angeles signed six future All-Stars in 1968 who would combine for 23 All-Star Game appearances, both Draft records. Washburn (Kan.) University outfielder Davey Lopes was a second-rounder in the January secondary phase, while California high school first baseman Bill Buckner (second), University of Houston outfielder/defensive back Tom Paciorek (fifth) and Alabama prep right-hander Doyle Alexander (ninth) were part of the regular June Draft. The cherry on top was a pair of college third basemen in the June secondary phase: Michigan State's Steve Garvey (first) and Washington State's Ron Cey (third).

University of Michigan left-hander Geoff Zahn (fifth, January secondary), Connecticut high school outfielder Bobby Valentine (No. 5 overall, June) and University of the Pacific outfielder Joe Ferguson (eighth, June) also enjoyed lengthy careers. The Dodgers inked a total of 11 future big leaguers who combined for a total of 235.6 Wins Above Replacement (Baseball-Reference version), another record.

 

It'll be even harder to top because of the increase in the number of teams since then.

[mvp 78]

It'll be even harder to top because of the increase in the number of teams since then.

 

And I'm sitting over here still waiting on the Brewers and Twins to be retracted.

[moonslav59]

And I'm sitting over here still waiting on the Brewers and Twins to be retracted.

 

...and the Rays and A's.

[mvp 78]

...and the Rays and A's.

 

And the Marlins and the Guardians.

 

It's a tough call between the White Sox and the Guardians. Chicago doesn't need 2 teams, but neither does Ohio.

 

That would get the league to 24 teams. You'd have 3 divisions in each league with 4 teams per division. That's much more aesthetically pleasing than what they have now and would work far better for scheduling.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I read somewhere that MLB will eventually expand. Montreal will probably get a team and there was speculation that another team could play in Mexico City? I was thinking about Las Vegas.

 

If baseball expands to Montreal, you move the Expos to the AL East so that the Blue Jays and Expos can be rivals and play each other 18 times a season--the Canadians will love that, not to mention the fact that both team could meet up in the playoffs. You then move the Rays to the NL East, where they can play the Marlins 18 times every season in an attempt to generate a rivalry in Florida.

 

It is my understanding that the Rays have a big viewership on TV and thus they aren't going anywhere, but people don't come out to the park. If they build a better park, in a better location, attendance will improve.

 

In this scenario, the NL East would have 6 teams; every other division would have 5. The NL would have one extra team than the AL. If baseball expands to Las Vegas, that team would play in the AL West and then you have the same amount of teams in both leagues.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Fan_since_Boggs]

A MLB Trade rumors update:

 

There’s simply no place for Pablo Sandoval on the Red Sox’ roster, writes WEEI’s John Tomase. The team still has a few days to make a decision on Sandoval, as his rehab window from an eyebrow-raising DL placement due to an ear infection doesn’t expire until Monday. However, Tomase argues that the writing has been on the wall from the moment the Sox placed Sandoval on the DL this past time. Deven Marrero and Tzu-Wei Lin are sound defensively, and even if neither can hit all that much, they’re both likely to outproduce Sandoval until Rafael Devers is ready or until president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski enlists some outside help on the trade market. Tomase notes that for all of his struggles in Boston, Sandoval has put in the effort to try to make the arrangement work. But, Tomase surmises, the team simply cannot exhibit any more patience at this point after giving Sandoval multiple chances to turn his career around.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017/07/blue-jays-trade-rumors-estrada-liriano-smith-howell.html

 

Link to Tomase's article:

http://www.weei.com/articles/column/tomase-pablo-sandovals-time-red-sox-uniform-almost

 

The frustration of manager John Farrell crystallized with each botched grounder, errant throw, or wild hack at a pitch out of the strike zone. Sandoval hurts the Red Sox at every level of the game, and it's no coincidence that the team went 10-4 right after he was removed from the starting lineup. That continues a pattern throughout his Red Sox career. The team is 69-81 when Sandoval starts, and 221-192 when he doesn't. He is the definition of addition by subtraction.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Dojji]

I was all for giving Sandoval a chance when we could afford it. We're competing for a tough division title. We CANNOT afford playing time based on charity.

[Nick]

How about realignment?

 

Flip Angels and A's for Arizona and Colorado. NL West thus will become all California teams. Dodgers, Giants, Padres, A's and Angels.....minimize travel and it would create a freaking buz.

Flip Mets and Washington for Toronto and Tampa Bay. AL East thus will become Sox, Yankees, Orioles, Mets and the Nats.

Flip Guardians and White Sox for Cardinals and Milwaukee. NL Central becomes Chicago (2), Reds, Guardians and Pirates.

 

Make DH mandatory. New generation of baseball fans has grown up watching DH employed starting at the high school level if not sooner. I don't want to watch pitchers hit. Essentially you are killing 2 innings out of 9 (usually pitchers are pinch hit by the 3rd time at bat)

 

I don't even want to watch Marrero hit, why would I want to watch Price hit?

 

Red Sox, Mets, Yankees, Nats, Orioles

Brewers, Cardinals, Tigers, Royals, Twins

Rockies, Rangers, Astros, Mariners, Diamondbacks

 

 

Marlins, Rays, Blue Jays, Braves, Phillies

Cubs, White Sox, Guardians, Reds, Pirates

Dodgers, Giants, A's, Angels, Padres

Edited July 12, 2017 by Nick

[a700hitter]

I they had listened to me, he would have been released after the injury to his knee. We can't waste time waiting for him to play below replacement level for Star $.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

How about realignment?

 

Flip Angels and A's for Arizona and Colorado. NL West thus will become all California teams. Dodgers, Giants, Padres, A's and Angels.....minimize travel and it would create a freaking buz.

Flip Mets and Washington for Toronto and Tampa Bay. AL East thus will become Sox, Yankees, Orioles, Mets and the Nats.

Flip Guardians and White Sox for Cardinals and Milwaukee. NL Central becomes Chicago (2), Reds, Guardians and Pirates.

 

Make DH mandatory. New generation of baseball fans has grown up watching DH employed starting at the high school level if not sooner. I don't want to watch pitchers hit. Essentially you are killing 2 innings out of 9 (usually pitchers are pinch hit by the 3rd time at bat)

 

I don't even want to watch Marrero hit, why would I want to watch Price hit?

 

Red Sox, Mets, Yankees, Nats, Orioles

Brewers, Cardinals, Tigers, Royals, Twins

Rockies, Rangers, Astros, Mariners, Diamondbacks

 

 

Marlins, Rays, Blue Jays, Braves, Phillies

Cubs, White Sox, Guardians, Reds, Pirates

Dodgers, Giants, A's, Angels, Padres

 

These are awesome ideas--I need time to think about them. Off the top of my head, I'm against putting the Yankees and Mets in the same division. When a team like the Yankees already has a major rival (the Red Sox)--the best rivalry in sports--there is no need to put another potential rival in the division as that might water down the first rivalry. It made sense to move the Astros to the AL West because the Rangers and Astros didn't already have a major rivalry with another team. The same is true of the Blue Jays, which is why it would make sense to put the Expos (when baseball expands) into the AL East. The same is true of the Marlins and Rays--they don't have a major rivalry with another team and so put them in the same division to establish a rivalry.

[Nick]

These are awesome ideas--I need time to think about them. Off the top of my head, I'm against putting the Yankees and Mets in the same division. When a team like the Yankees already has a major rival (the Red Sox)--the best rivalry in sports--there is no need to put another potential rival in the division as that might water down the first rivalry. It made sense to move the Astros to the AL West because the Rangers and Astros didn't already have a major rivalry with another team. The same is true of the Blue Jays, which is why it would make sense to put the Expos (when baseball expands) into the AL East. The same is true of the Marlins and Rays--they don't have a major rivalry with another team and so put them in the same division to establish a rivalry.

 

I'm pretty sure this has 0% chance of happening. But I think it's good to shake it up sometime.

[bowman]

Big f... blunder. Counting on him to turn it around this year and trading Shaw turned out real good. I was pissed when they traded Shaw. Love having a healthy Thorn in the pen, but we ended up with a real mess. Just ask yourself what would we have to give up to get Shaw back. Not a good move. When you unload any type of young talent, you better make sure you KNOW what that players potential might be. Everyone keeps talking about Devers and rightly so, be if he is our third baseman of the future, we could have still used Shaw at first or DH. After giving up a lot of our young talent for Sale, which right now is huge success, why on earth would you trade another up and comer like Shaw when we could have had Thorn for someone else, or just don't make the deal.. Really sucks, because right now we are in a bind for a power hitter wether people want to admit it or not. Hanley can't hold Ortiz's jock. He is a joke. Goes on a tear for a weak and everyone loves him. He is a dog and not a money player. He is a screw up and not a team player, but he's ours. I for one believe in pitching and defense which is why we still have a shot, but with all the money ownership has invested right now, anything less than a deep run will be considered a failure. It's all about evaluating talent and using your head. Why do you think the Pats are so great, they turn over a lot of players with everyone wondering why did they let that player go. Look at the results. Talent evaluation.. Team players.. " A f.. plan"

[notin]

I do agree with Nick on one point, where I agree strongly - DH everywhere. Having two sets of rules for the leagues is stupid. It would be like if the AFC didn't allow kickodfs and just put the ball on the 25, while the NFC didn't have placekickers and every touchdown was followed by a two point conversion...