Hanley Ramirez

[Spudboy]

led the league in RBIs, Runs Scored, On Base as well - and had good defensive results ... his 1967-1970 peak is as strong as there has ever been.

 

Did you see him play?

[southpaw777]

Worst Case

 

C Sandy 1B Hanley 2B Pedey 3B Shaw SS Xander LF Beni CF Bradley RF Betts DH Young....throw in Sandy to DH when not catching, Swihart and Holt

 

Solid lineup, definitely a notch or two down from this year.

 

Swiharts not gonna be a bench guy. I would guess he starts in AAA as a catcher again and its going to be two of Leon, Vaz and maybe even Holaday if they wanna pay him arbitration. Unless Swihart looks a lot better behind the dish, i would guess at this point he will be penciled in as catcher in AAA to start 2017.

[illinoisredsox]

I believe Yaz was the only player to hit over .300 in 1968. Second place was something like .293.

 

Bob Gibson's ERA was 1.12 or something crazy. They lowered the mounds shortly after, no?

 

Also was it Mickey Lolitch or Denny McClain that won 30 games or something?

 

 

Yaz was the only AL player over .300 in 1968 (he hit .301). IIf I remember correctly, Danny Cater of the A's was 2nd around .293. There were 4-5 players in the NL who did it (I think Pete Rose led the pack; he was up around .330).

 

I remember looking up the team batting averages that year once. I think Oakland led the AL with a .240 team average and the league overall hit something like .231.

 

That was the year Gibson posted that 1.12 ERA, going 22-9 in 34 starts (28 complete games). With that ERA, one of the great mysteries for me has always been how in the world did he lose 9 games. I've heard he was never taken out of a game during an inning that season.

 

Denny McLain went 31-6 for the Tigers that year (starting 41 games) with a 1.96 ERA. Gibson bested him in games 1 and 4 of the World Series. He came back on 2 days rest and won game 6. Mickey Lolich won games 2 and 5 for the Tigers, and came back on 2 days rest to beat Gibson in game 7.

 

The NL won the All-Star game 1-0 on an unearned run scored by Willie Mays.

 

As A700 said below, they did indeed lower the mound after the 1968 season.

[Nick]

Yaz was the only AL player over .300 in 1968 (he hit .301). IIf I remember correctly, Danny Cater of the A's was 2nd around .293. There were 4-5 players in the NL who did it (I think Pete Rose led the pack; he was up around .330).

 

I remember looking up the team batting averages that year once. I think Oakland led the AL with a .240 team average and the league overall hit something like .231.

 

That was the year Gibson posted that 1.12 ERA, going 22-9 in 34 starts (28 complete games). With that ERA, one of the great mysteries for me has always been how in the world did he lose 9 games. I've heard he was never taken out of a game during an inning that season.

 

Denny McLain went 31-6 for the Tigers that year (starting 41 games) with a 1.96 ERA. Gibson bested him in games 1 and 4 of the World Series. He came back on 2 days rest and won game 6. Mickey Lolich won games 2 and 5 for the Tigers, and came back on 2 days rest to beat Gibson in game 7.

 

The NL won the All-Star game 1-0 on an unearned run scored by Willie Mays.

 

As A700 said below, they did indeed lower the mound after the 1968 season.

 

 

wow...thanks...I became a Red Sox fan in 1967...I was eleven at the time. Rico Petrocelli (sp?) was my guy. I played SS. lol

[moonslav59]

I read an interesting stat the other day. In 1967, Yaz had 12.4 WAR season. That was the highest mark recorded in a season by a position player since Babe Ruth in 1927, and no position player achieved that mark since. Only 2 pitchers have surpassed that season mark -- Steve Carlton in 1972 when he won 27 games and Dwight Gooden in 1985. Yaz's mark of 12.4 has been surpassed only twice in a season by a position player -- both times by Babe Ruth. Whenever people talk about Yaz's 1967 season they talk about the final 2 weeks, but the entirety of his season was remarkable.

 

Yaz was amazing. His 1967 season was legendary.

 

I know different sites use different methods for determining WAR, but fangraphs has Yaz's 1967 season listed as the 20th best WAR season by a non-pitcher.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2016&month=0&season1=1871&ind=1&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

Ruth had 5 of the top 6 seasons with Barry Bonds at #5.

 

Others listed ahead of Yaz (some with 2 or more):

Gehrig 1927

Hornsby 1924

Wagner 1908

Williams 1946 (& 1942)

Mantle 1956

Cobb 1917

Foxx 1932

 

 

[sk7326]

Did you see him play?

 

Naw - I remember his retirement day faintly as one of the earlier memories of sox-dom.

[Emp9]

You're right that he's had a fluctuating career at the plate, but it might not matter if he hits .881 or 1.040. To me, as our DH middle of the order bat, just give me the RBI. This season, Hanley has already tied his career high in rbi (106, 2009, age 25, .954) w/ an .881 OPS. The Sox, as presently constructed, get on base and I don't see that changing any time soon. I think he's a perfect fit for our team going forward.

 

I'd put their chances at trading HanRam at close to 0%.

 

I'd be happy with a roller coaster of between .881 and 10.40, but it's been worse than that, and I haven't even brought up the injury issues.

 

Here's the ride HanRam has taken starting in 2006....

.883

.948

.940

.954 (nice first 4 years, then this...)

.853

.712

.759

1.040 (Quite a ride now, isn't it?)

.817

.717

.881

 

Since 2009: down 3 straight, up 2 straight, down 2 straight and now up one.

 

PAs since 2010

619

385

604

304

449

401

511++

In 3 of the previous 4 years, HanRam failed to reach 450 PAs.

 

He's a high risk player on top of his game right now. I'm not going to argue about what we should do next year while he's in his best groove since 2013.

 

 

 

 

 

In 2012 he had a .759 ops and was just 8 shy of 100 rbi (between Mia & LAD). I guess what I'm getting at is.... think Ortiz's "bad" years and he still drove in close to 100 runs. In '08 Papi played 109 games and still drove in 89 runs. I don't care how how Hanley does it. He can sacrifice fly his way to 100 rbi or single us to death with men in scoring position. Punch my ticket for the roller coaster Moon, it don't look THAT scarey.

[cp176]

I saw the 1967 season up close and Yaz was the man.

 

But how is it that his WAR was determined? Did they have DWAR back then?

 

I don't remember anyone mentioning advanced defensive metrics in the '60s.

 

For those who did not see him play he was a spectacular defensive player that hit for average and power.

 

I remember when Yaz broke in. As the years progressed so did his power numbers. You are also right about his defensive ability. His baseball IQ was unbelievable. I have said this before but it just doesn't get old for me - I have never seen anyone have a year like Yaz did in 1967. He led (sometimes) carried a very young but talented group into the world series. It always saddens me when I think that Neither he nor Ted ever won the big one. Doesn't seem right.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, poor Yaz - he made the final out in the 1975 World Series, down a run, and the final out in the 1978 playoff game, down a run. The cruel twists of fate.

[cp176]

That popup to third (I think) I remember quite well. 1978 was a sad Red Sox story.

[moonslav59]

Punch my ticket for the roller coaster Moon, it don't look THAT scary.

 

 

I'm fine with the idea of keeping him, and I can see why just about everyone agrees. I said I think there's about a zero % chance the Sox trade him.

 

I don't want to talk badly about HanRam at this point of the season. He's doing a great job this year. He's not that scary, but at $22M per and entering the wrong side of prime, I'm thinking two things: one- we can get something very goof for him without paying anything towards his salary and two- we could use the $22M towards something very special, less risky and less scary....maybe. Saying you want to trade someone is not the same as saying you don't value that person.

 

Look, let's be happy with what we have right now. The off season will be full of ideas to debate.

 

I'm glad we have HanRam. He's doing very well with us.

 

 

 

 

[southpaw777]

Punch my ticket for the roller coaster Moon, it don't look THAT scary.

 

 

I'm fine with the idea of keeping him, and I can see why just about everyone agrees. I said I think there's about a zero % chance the Sox trade him.

 

I don't want to talk badly about HanRam at this point of the season. He's doing a great job this year. He's not that scary, but at $22M per and entering the wrong side of prime, I'm thinking two things: one- we can get something very goof for him without paying anything towards his salary and two- we could use the $22M towards something very special, less risky and less scary....maybe. Saying you want to trade someone is not the same as saying you don't value that person.

 

Look, let's be happy with what we have right now. The off season will be full of ideas to debate.

 

I'm glad we have HanRam. He's doing very well with us.

 

 

 

 

 

Some guys dont apply to the "prime age" rule...I said a long time ago on BDC that Beltre would be well worth a 5-6 year deal after his one year here. Many said no way because of the same reason you stated. Like Beltre, I think Hanley will age well into his age 35 year. The guy is in Phenomenal shape and a career almost 300 hitter.

Seriously, I wouldnt worry about how Hanley ages over the next three years

[cp176]

Give credit where credit is due i say. Ramirez is having a great year. Winning is a great motivator! i believe in the old theory that you are never as bad as you look when you are at your worst and that you are never really as good as you look when you are at your best. I felt at the time of the Hanley signing that it was an overpay. Upon second thought, I realized that it wasn't my play money. I believe absolutely that he like most of the entertainers that we feel so warmly about is grossly overpaid. With that in mind, I'm sure happy that he is playing for us. There is virtually no way that he is going to be anywhere but Boston next year and we probably will be the better for it. His numbers could very likely revert back to career norms but who cares. In the heat of a pennant race, if he can crank it up, i think it is all good.

[Nick]

Give credit where credit is due i say. Ramirez is having a great year. Winning is a great motivator! i believe in the old theory that you are never as bad as you look when you are at your worst and that you are never really as good as you look when you are at your best. I felt at the time of the Hanley signing that it was an overpay. Upon second thought, I realized that it wasn't my play money. I believe absolutely that he like most of the entertainers that we feel so warmly about is grossly overpaid. With that in mind, I'm sure happy that he is playing for us. There is virtually no way that he is going to be anywhere but Boston next year and we probably will be the better for it. His numbers could very likely revert back to career norms but who cares. In the heat of a pennant race, if he can crank it up, i think it is all good.

 

In reality, Hanley's contract is no different than Pedey's. They are both more valuable to the Sox than to anyone else. What team would be willing to trade for Pedey? Will the White Sox trade Sales for Pedey even up? I seriously doubt it. They are not going anywhere at this stage of their careers.

[Bellhorn04]

In reality, Hanley's contract is no different than Pedey's. They are both more valuable to the Sox than to anyone else. What team would be willing to trade for Pedey? Will the White Sox trade Sales for Pedey even up? I seriously doubt it. They are not going anywhere at this stage of their careers.

 

Nobody's going to trade an ace pitcher for Hanley or Pedey, that's for sure, but there are teams that would be willing to take on their contracts.

 

Pedroia's especially. His contract has 5 more years at a total of 71 million - 14.2 million per season. Very reasonable by today's standards.

[Emp9]

Give credit where credit is due i say. Ramirez is having a great year. Winning is a great motivator! i believe in the old theory that you are never as bad as you look when you are at your worst and that you are never really as good as you look when you are at your best. I felt at the time of the Hanley signing that it was an overpay. Upon second thought, I realized that it wasn't my play money. I believe absolutely that he like most of the entertainers that we feel so warmly about is grossly overpaid. With that in mind, I'm sure happy that he is playing for us. There is virtually no way that he is going to be anywhere but Boston next year and we probably will be the better for it. His numbers could very likely revert back to career norms but who cares. In the heat of a pennant race, if he can crank it up, i think it is all good.

 

Career norms? Nah, I highly doubt he'll steal 30 bases in a season again. Seriously though, his career norms are what i'm banking on. And it's not even all about Hanley either. It's the offense around him just as much as anything else. Plus I like his health going forward. He's been long removed from trying to steal 70 bases a year and you'd really have to concentrate pretty hard to get hurt being a full time DH. Unless we see some serious drop in bat speed, I'm not worried.

[Nick]

Nobody's going to trade an ace pitcher for Hanley or Pedey, that's for sure, but there are teams that would be willing to take on their contracts.

 

Pedroia's especially. His contract has 5 more years at a total of 71 million - 14.2 million per season. Very reasonable by today's standards.

 

I beg to differ. No one will give up anything of value for Pedey.

[moonslav59]

Some guys dont apply to the "prime age" rule...I said a long time ago on BDC that Beltre would be well worth a 5-6 year deal after his one year here. Many said no way because of the same reason you stated. Like Beltre, I think Hanley will age well into his age 35 year. The guy is in Phenomenal shape and a career almost 300 hitter.

Seriously, I wouldnt worry about how Hanley ages over the next three years

 

Carl Crawford was also in tremendous shape. His off season workout regime was among the most strenuous in all of baseball.

 

Look, I'm not writing off HanRam. He has been and still can be a great hitter.

 

He's had injury concerns. He's had off years. He's had issues with defense.

 

I realize every player is a "risk" to some extent, and I have no issues with those who feel the chances are good that he continues doign well for us over the remaining 2-3 years of his contract.

[moonslav59]

In reality, Hanley's contract is no different than Pedey's. They are both more valuable to the Sox than to anyone else. What team would be willing to trade for Pedey? Will the White Sox trade Sales for Pedey even up? I seriously doubt it. They are not going anywhere at this stage of their careers.

 

I don't see it that way. Pedey and HanRam have a lot of value to many contending teams. Of course, contending teams will not give up a quality ML player in return, unless they have duplicated value at a position, and not many have too many aces. Neither Pedey nor HanRam would net us an ace anyways, but as part of a larger package they might. More likely, they could be dealt for some top prospects, and then thos prospects could either be flipped or used to replace some of our prospects that are traded for an ace from a non-contender (like Sale).

 

I see two players on our team that probably have more value elsewhere than here: Swihart and Holt. Both would get way more playing time elsewhere. I would try to trade one, but not both, as one will be needed for LF added depth.

[S5Dewey]

.

 

I see two players on our team that probably have more value elsewhere than here: Swihart and Holt. Both would get way more playing time elsewhere. I would try to trade one, but not both, as one will be needed for LF added depth.

 

You and I may not agree on everything but we certainly do on this point. I could see the FO standing pat over the winter and go into 2017 with what we've got, except that I'd like to trade one of Swihart or Holt (and maybe T. Shaw depending on how Sam Travis does) as part of a package to improve the pen.

 

And I don't even know why I want to try to improve the pen, when everyone's bullpen is a crap shoot for next year anyway, including ours!

[moonslav59]

You and I may not agree on everything but we certainly do on this point. I could see the FO standing pat over the winter and go into 2017 with what we've got, except that I'd like to trade one of Swihart or Holt (and maybe T. Shaw depending on how Sam Travis does) as part of a package to improve the pen.

 

And I don't even know why I want to try to improve the pen, when everyone's bullpen is a crap shoot for next year anyway, including ours!

 

I don't think we need to spend big money to replace Papi or to upgrade our rotation, besides, there's no top quality FA starters on the market.

 

I think we can spend the money on the pen and maybe only the pen. That might mean we don't have to trade for a pen arm.

 

I get what you are saying about the "crap shoot" aspect of acquiring relief pitchers, but getting RP'ers with better histories does improve the chances they do well with us. Stockpiling a few extra can't hurt either, since many of our pen arms still have options, so we can start them in AAA for later use.

 

I'd still like to see an upgrade at SP'er. I like Pomeranz, but he wasn't my idea of a building from the top type move.

 

I think we might see a trade involving one of our starters plus Holt or Swihart and maybe Devers or Moncada for a much better, proven SP'er under team control for several years. I could see something like ERod, Swihart, Devers and maybe Dubon or Owens for Sale or Quintana.

[Bellhorn04]

I beg to differ. No one will give up anything of value for Pedey.

 

What I said was someone would take his contract.

[oldtimer]

I don't think we need to spend big money to replace Papi or to upgrade our rotation, besides, there's no top quality FA starters on the market.

 

I think we can spend the money on the pen and maybe only the pen. That might mean we don't have to trade for a pen arm.

 

I get what you are saying about the "crap shoot" aspect of acquiring relief pitchers, but getting RP'ers with better histories does improve the chances they do well with us. Stockpiling a few extra can't hurt either, since many of our pen arms still have options, so we can start them in AAA for later use.

 

I'd still like to see an upgrade at SP'er. I like Pomeranz, but he wasn't my idea of a building from the top type move.

 

I think we might see a trade involving one of our starters plus Holt or Swihart and maybe Devers or Moncada for a much better, proven SP'er under team control for several years. I could see something like ERod, Swihart, Devers and maybe Dubon or Owens for Sale or Quintana.

 

Standing pat in the lineup area based on this years team is a reasonable idea. Of course we lose Ortiz whatever else happens, and that is a huge loss. As we have said many times we are good in the outfield with and including Young as our utility guy there

 

Out of our 4 current catchers, we have to be okay. Trade a couple and keep the best. Leon and who?

 

Second and short are set so back to 3rd, 1st and DH and utility infielders. Hanley will be either 1st and/or DH, maybe sharing time between the two, so that leaves us with 4 slots we can fill to make up the 13 lineup players.

 

Shaw is a strong candidate for us since he can play 1st or 3rd and still can be expected to improve as a hitter, perhaps enough to sub at DH. Holt is a major league player and can fill in just about anywhere but as you say, his value might be even greater to another team. Swihart is also a good candidate, since he could sub in the outfield, as a 3rd catcher, possibly 1st and even do some DH work. Moncada has some learning ahead. One hopes he can develop an fulfill his potential. Devers could possibly emerge and one can't forget Panda as his salary may dictate one more look. When all is said and done, we will need a utility infielder who can play short in a pinch. I have wondered about Hernandez for a long while, but the Sox just have not used him which seems like they see that he lacks a key ability, such as hitting.

 

I too agree that we should concentrate on RP help going forward. Deciding who to keep, whether to try to resign some FA's and so on. I would expect a minimum of two new RP's added/changed in the offseason. SP may be impossible to find and almost certainly will be bid up due to the shortages. A FA lineup player is not out of the question, but I hate to see us tie up big money in long term contracts for ageing players.

[moonslav59]

Standing pat in the lineup area based on this years team is a reasonable idea. Of course we lose Ortiz whatever else happens, and that is a huge loss. As we have said many times we are good in the outfield with and including Young as our utility guy there

 

Out of our 4 current catchers, we have to be okay. Trade a couple and keep the best. Leon and who?

 

Second and short are set so back to 3rd, 1st and DH and utility infielders. Hanley will be either 1st and/or DH, maybe sharing time between the two, so that leaves us with 4 slots we can fill to make up the 13 lineup players.

 

Shaw is a strong candidate for us since he can play 1st or 3rd and still can be expected to improve as a hitter, perhaps enough to sub at DH. Holt is a major league player and can fill in just about anywhere but as you say, his value might be even greater to another team. Swihart is also a good candidate, since he could sub in the outfield, as a 3rd catcher, possibly 1st and even do some DH work. Moncada has some learning ahead. One hopes he can develop an fulfill his potential. Devers could possibly emerge and one can't forget Panda as his salary may dictate one more look. When all is said and done, we will need a utility infielder who can play short in a pinch. I have wondered about Hernandez for a long while, but the Sox just have not used him which seems like they see that he lacks a key ability, such as hitting.

 

I too agree that we should concentrate on RP help going forward. Deciding who to keep, whether to try to resign some FA's and so on. I would expect a minimum of two new RP's added/changed in the offseason. SP may be impossible to find and almost certainly will be bid up due to the shortages. A FA lineup player is not out of the question, but I hate to see us tie up big money in long term contracts for ageing players.

 

I'm not sure why we haven't used Hernandez more. He's shown he can hit everywhere, but has not had a large enough ML sample size to know.

 

I think we keep Leon and Vaz, but we might have Swihart as the #3C and #5 LF'er plus maybe teach him 1B. He could DH, if his bat progresses.

 

Shaw makes the team unless traded. I'd put him at 3B, until Moncada is fully ready to play there. I suppose Pablo could beat him out, but I seriously doubt it.

 

So, counting Young as the DH/4th OF, Vaz and Swi, that's 11. That leaves room for 2 more out of Holt/Hernandez and Moncada/Pablo with Sam Travis as a possible mid season addition.

 

I think it makes sense to trade Holt or Swihart, but not both. I suppose we could trade Moncada in a package to get an ace, but I don't see that happening.

[mvp 78]

I think it makes sense to trade Holt or Swihart.

 

Yes, because injuries never happen.

[moonslav59]

Yes, because injuries never happen.

 

I'm not for handing them away for nothing. I'm for trading from an area of duplication for an area of high need.

 

We have Vazquez and Holaday.

 

We have Hernandez, Young, Rutledge, Shaw, Moncada, Pablo and maybe eventually Dubon and Travis.

 

We need better pitching.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I'm not sure why we haven't used Hernandez more. He's shown he can hit everywhere, but has not had a large enough ML sample size to know.

 

I think we keep Leon and Vaz, but we might have Swihart as the #3C and #5 LF'er plus maybe teach him 1B. He could DH, if his bat progresses.

 

Shaw makes the team unless traded. I'd put him at 3B, until Moncada is fully ready to play there. I suppose Pablo could beat him out, but I seriously doubt it.

 

So, counting Young as the DH/4th OF, Vaz and Swi, that's 11. That leaves room for 2 more out of Holt/Hernandez and Moncada/Pablo with Sam Travis as a possible mid season addition.

 

I think it makes sense to trade Holt or Swihart, but not both. I suppose we could trade Moncada in a package to get an ace, but I don't see that happening.

 

I doubt they trade Swihart coming off an injury, but you never know I guess.

 

They definitely won't turn him into a utility player at this stage of his development. The only way he makes the big league roster coming out of spring training is as the starting catcher, which is obviously unlikely. He'll play every day somewhere. My guess would be the starting catcher in Pawtucket.

[cp176]

Career norms? Nah, I highly doubt he'll steal 30 bases in a season again. Seriously though, his career norms are what i'm banking on. And it's not even all about Hanley either. It's the offense around him just as much as anything else. Plus I like his health going forward. He's been long removed from trying to steal 70 bases a year and you'd really have to concentrate pretty hard to get hurt being a full time DH. Unless we see some serious drop in bat speed, I'm not worried.

 

you and I were thinking about different career norms. I was thinking more of a post 2010 Hanley Ramirez. he can still get around the bases but a base stealer - not so much. I think that winning seems to have energized him. Playing with hungry talented young players doesn't hurt either. Hanley seems to like it here. He isn't going anywhere.

[moonslav59]

you and I were thinking about different career norms. I was thinking more of a post 2010 Hanley Ramirez. he can still get around the bases but a base stealer - not so much. I think that winning seems to have energized him. Playing with hungry talented young players doesn't hurt either. Hanley seems to like it here. He isn't going anywhere.

 

No, he's not.

 

It's definitely a different mentality playing with the Sox rather than the Marlins or Dodgers.

 

HanRam has matured a lot since the days we traded him.

[moonslav59]

I doubt they trade Swihart coming off an injury, but you never know I guess.

 

I'm not sure an injury like his will significantly affect his value, but I can see us waiting on Swihart before making a deal. (That's one reason I mention Holt as a trade piece so often.)

 

They definitely won't turn him into a utility player at this stage of his development. The only way he makes the big league roster coming out of spring training is as the starting catcher, which is obviously unlikely. He'll play every day somewhere. My guess would be the starting catcher in Pawtucket.

 

I do think he starts the season at Pawtucket.

 

I'm not sure the Sox are locked into making him their catcher. (That's one reason I have mentioned trading him.) I still think they like Vazquez more than Swihart, and Leon has knocked them both down a notch. Assuming Swihart gets healthy and he's living up to his offensive expectations, and he could learn to play 1B, I think he could get 500+ PAs without owning a position.

 

Anytime an OF'er gets hurt or needs a rest, Swihart could play LF or DH (where ever Young does not play).

 

He could DH or play 1B vs RHPs (where ever HanRam does not play). Even if he doesn't play 1B, he could DH vs all RHPs, if he proves he can hit well enough. If he can't, then trading him won't be a huge loss in the long run.

 

He could catch here and there.

 

I'd prefer to keep Swihart over Holt, but I doubt we trade either of them.