Hanley Ramirez

[Eddy Ballgame]

I doubt they trade Swihart coming off an injury, but you never know I guess.

 

I'm not sure an injury like his will significantly affect his value, but I can see us waiting on Swihart before making a deal. (That's one reason I mention Holt as a trade piece so often.)

 

They definitely won't turn him into a utility player at this stage of his development. The only way he makes the big league roster coming out of spring training is as the starting catcher, which is obviously unlikely. He'll play every day somewhere. My guess would be the starting catcher in Pawtucket.

 

I do think he starts the season at Pawtucket.

 

I'm not sure the Sox are locked into making him their catcher. (That's one reason I have mentioned trading him.) I still think they like Vazquez more than Swihart, and Leon has knocked them both down a notch. Assuming Swihart gets healthy and he's living up to his offensive expectations, and he could learn to play 1B, I think he could get 500+ PAs without owning a position.

 

Anytime an OF'er gets hurt or needs a rest, Swihart could play LF or DH (where ever Young does not play).

 

He could DH or play 1B vs RHPs (where ever HanRam does not play). Even if he doesn't play 1B, he could DH vs all RHPs, if he proves he can hit well enough. If he can't, then trading him won't be a huge loss in the long run.

 

He could catch here and there.

 

I'd prefer to keep Swihart over Holt, but I doubt we trade either of them.

 

We'll have to disagree here. I've never seen a team take a top prospect and make him a utility player at this stage of their career. He needs to play every day and I'm certain he will somewhere.

 

He'd never get 500 at bats in the scenarios that you mention, unless there are significant injuries to multiple players. Whether or not they view him as the catcher of the future is irrelevant. At this point, he just needs to play so they can have a better idea of what he can be. I'm certain he won't make the MLB roster unless he's the starting catcher.

[moonslav59]

We'll have to disagree here. I've never seen a team take a top prospect and make him a utility player at this stage of their career. He needs to play every day and I'm certain he will somewhere.

 

They already did it this year, when they moved him to LF in short order. Only his injury kept him from being our LF'er and 2/3 catcher.

.

He'd never get 500 at bats in the scenarios that you mention, unless there are significant injuries to multiple players. Whether or not they view him as the catcher of the future is irrelevant. At this point, he just needs to play so they can have a better idea of what he can be. I'm certain he won't make the MLB roster unless he's the starting catcher.

 

You get 450-500 just being a straight platoon who plays against all RH'd starters. If they can make him a LF'er, they can make him a DH- either FT or vs RHPs only as Young plays vs LHPs.

 

Since Swihart is a switch hitter who seems to hit well from both sides, he should get some more PAs vs LHPs when an OF'er or HanRam needs a rest or is hurt.

 

I'm not sure he could ever become a decent defensive 3Bman, but hat could also be an option.

 

He'll have plenty of chances to win a FT job, if he can hit as advertised.

 

He has much more offensive upside than Holt.

[Eddy Ballgame]

You get 450-500 just being a straight platoon who plays against all RH'd starters. If they can make him a LF'er, they can make him a DH- either FT or vs RHPs only as Young plays vs LHPs.

 

Since Swihart is a switch hitter who seems to hit well from both sides, he should get some more PAs vs LHPs when an OF'er or HanRam needs a rest or is hurt.

 

I'm not sure he could ever become a decent defensive 3Bman, but hat could also be an option.

 

He'll have plenty of chances to win a FT job, if he can hit as advertised.

 

He has much more offensive upside than Holt.

 

I'm not getting the Holt comparison at all. Swihart is a top young catching prospect and Brock Holt is a utility player. Maybe in 4 years when Swihart is 28, he'll be a utility player, but they aren't going to make him one now. It's not even a remote possibilty. He's 24 years old.

[S5Dewey]

I doubt they trade Swihart coming off an injury, but you never know I guess.

 

I'm not sure an injury like his will significantly affect his value, but I can see us waiting on Swihart before making a deal. (That's one reason I mention Holt as a trade piece so often.)

 

They definitely won't turn him into a utility player at this stage of his development. The only way he makes the big league roster coming out of spring training is as the starting catcher, which is obviously unlikely. He'll play every day somewhere. My guess would be the starting catcher in Pawtucket.

 

I do think he starts the season at Pawtucket.

 

I'm not sure the Sox are locked into making him their catcher. (That's one reason I have mentioned trading him.) I still think they like Vazquez more than Swihart, and Leon has knocked them both down a notch. Assuming Swihart gets healthy and he's living up to his offensive expectations, and he could learn to play 1B, I think he could get 500+ PAs without owning a position.

 

Anytime an OF'er gets hurt or needs a rest, Swihart could play LF or DH (where ever Young does not play).

 

He could DH or play 1B vs RHPs (where ever HanRam does not play). Even if he doesn't play 1B, he could DH vs all RHPs, if he proves he can hit well enough. If he can't, then trading him won't be a huge loss in the long run.

 

He could catch here and there.

 

I'd prefer to keep Swihart over Holt, but I doubt we trade either of them.

 

The more you post the less interested you seem in Encanarcion - which is great with me.

[moonslav59]

I'm not getting the Holt comparison at all. Swihart is a top young catching prospect and Brock Holt is a utility player. Maybe in 4 years when Swihart is 28, he'll be a utility player, but they aren't going to make him one now. It's not even a remote possibilty. He's 24 years old.

 

I don't see Swihart riding the bench for too long with the Sox. If he's healthy next year, he's got as good a shot as anyone for the FT DH job, or at least vs RHPs (450 PAs a year there alone). If he can get a few scraggly PAs at catcher, PH'er when not starting, and some in LF, then he'd get over 500 or 550 PAs. I wouldn't call that a "utility" player in the true sense of the term. My call for him to maybe learn 1B or 3B was not meant as a road to a utility role, but more as a way for him to win a FT or major role in that one position. 3B is up in the air right now. Maybe the Sox want HanRam to DH next year. That would open up Swihart to have a good chance at winning that position.

 

I realize the value piece that being a catcher entails. That's one reason I have suggested Swihart as a possible trade cadnidate, since his value as a catcher for another team is probably higher than his value to us as a DH, 1Bman, 3Bman or Lf'er... or "utility". Of course, I have not given up on him as our catcher of the future, and I have not anointed Leon as our catching savior, but with 3 pretty well-regarded major league ready catchers on the roster, I can see why a Swihart trade could be in order.

 

I'll talk about Holt in my next post.

[moonslav59]

On Holt: I love the guy and recognize the high value for having a guy that can play 7 positions. His role on a 25 man roster allows the manager to make other moves feeling safe that Holt is always there "just in case". However, with the departure of our DH only DH, and the addition of Hernandez, Swihart, Beni or Moncada will push Holt down the depth chart at a number of positions.

 

He's already just the 5th OF'er, and he might be the 6th with a healthy Swihart.

He might be the 4th or 5th option at 3B next year, depending on Pablo and Hernandez being on the 25 man roster.

He may have slipped behind Moncada as the first back-up 2Bman. (Hernandez can play 2b too, like tonight.)

He should never play 1B with HanRam, Shaw and maybe a newly trained Swihart.

I prefer Hernandez at SS over Holt. Dubon is rising quickly.

Where will Holt be the first guy off the bench, if any one single player goes on the DL?

 

Maybe 2B depending on Moncada's readiness?

 

This Holt-less roster has a lot of flexibilty and depth: (parenthesis not on this version of 25 man roster)

 

Current projected starters in BOLD by me

 

C- Leon Vaz Swihart (We can PH for our catchers late in the game with Swi on the roster.)

1B- HanRam, Shaw, Swihart? (Pablo, Travis)

2B- Pedey, Moncada, Hernandez, marrero (Rutledge)

3B- Shaw, Moncada, Hernandez, (Pablo, Rutledge, Marrero)

SS- Bogey, Hernandez, (Rutledge, Marrero, Dubon)

LF- Beni, Young, Swihart, Shaw

CF- JBJ, Betts, Beni, Young

RF- Betts, JBJ, Beni, Young

DH- Swihart- Young, HanRam, (Pablo)

 

looks deep and strong

[Eddy Ballgame]

I don't see Swihart riding the bench for too long with the Sox. If he's healthy next year, he's got as good a shot as anyone for the FT DH job, or at least vs RHPs (450 PAs a year there alone). If he can get a few scraggly PAs at catcher, PH'er when not starting, and some in LF, then he'd get over 500 or 550 PAs. I wouldn't call that a "utility" player in the true sense of the term. My call for him to maybe learn 1B or 3B was not meant as a road to a utility role, but more as a way for him to win a FT or major role in that one position. 3B is up in the air right now. Maybe the Sox want HanRam to DH next year. That would open up Swihart to have a good chance at winning that position.

 

I realize the value piece that being a catcher entails. That's one reason I have suggested Swihart as a possible trade cadnidate, since his value as a catcher for another team is probably higher than his value to us as a DH, 1Bman, 3Bman or Lf'er... or "utility". Of course, I have not given up on him as our catcher of the future, and I have not anointed Leon as our catching savior, but with 3 pretty well-regarded major league ready catchers on the roster, I can see why a Swihart trade could be in order.

 

I'll talk about Holt in my next post.

 

You mentioned DHing Moncada part time in previous posts as well. I think you're trying to out think yourself. In the 40+ years that the DH has been around, I've never seen a team take a young, athletic, highly touted prospect and DH them, part time or not.

 

Moncada & Swihart are two of the best athletes in the organization. They need to play a position every day, not DH. It'll never happen with either one of them next year.

 

Then there's the whole additional mental aspect of trying to DH, play multiple positions, etc. A team like Boston, that puts a ton of resources in training players for the off the field part of the game, isn't going to impede a top prospect's development because they may need a part time DH, 3rd catcher and 5th outfielder on the roster.

[cp176]

You mentioned DHing Moncada part time in previous posts as well. I think you're trying to out think yourself. In the 40+ years that the DH has been around, I've never seen a team take a young, athletic, highly touted prospect and DH them, part time or not.

 

Moncada & Swihart are two of the best athletes in the organization. They need to play a position every day, not DH. It'll never happen with either one of them next year.

 

Then there's the whole additional mental aspect of trying to DH, play multiple positions, etc. A team like Boston, that puts a ton of resources in training players for the off the field part of the game, isn't going to impede a top prospect's development because they may need a part time DH, 3rd catcher and 5th outfielder on the roster.

 

sensible post

[moonslav59]

You mentioned DHing Moncada part time in previous posts as well. I think you're trying to out think yourself. In the 40+ years that the DH has been around, I've never seen a team take a young, athletic, highly touted prospect and DH them, part time or not.

 

Moncada & Swihart are two of the best athletes in the organization. They need to play a position every day, not DH. It'll never happen with either one of them next year.

 

Then there's the whole additional mental aspect of trying to DH, play multiple positions, etc. A team like Boston, that puts a ton of resources in training players for the off the field part of the game, isn't going to impede a top prospect's development because they may need a part time DH, 3rd catcher and 5th outfielder on the roster.

 

I share your feeling, but I'm acting on an assumption that might be totally wrong- we will not make a major acquisition to replace Papi. I'm working on what our current roster minus Papi might look like next year.

 

We may need to put tradition behind us for a short time, so we can put the best hitting team on the field next year. I see the great advantage of putting top athletes in AAA to improve their defense, if there is no starting role on the 25 man roster. That's a long-standing tradition that has a lot of merit. However, our offense may need help, and right now, I see Moncada and Swihart (along with beni in LF) as the leading candidates to greatly increase their MLB PAs from 2016 to 2017. They are ahead of Pablo, Hernandez, Holt, Vazquez and maybe even Young (vs RHPs anyway) on offense.

 

The issue is how to get their bats into the line-up without severely limiting our defense. Moncada looks to need much more time at 3B to be decent on defense. Playing DH and practicing 3B on his off time may not be the ideal chocie, but if his bat can help us win, we may have to put him at DH for a while anyway (vs RHPs). One major reason I suggested Swihart learn 1B or 3B was so he wouldn't have to DH. I have no idea how Sox management views his possibilities as a corner IF'er, and I defer to their judgment on that one. I don't see Swihart beating out Leon next year, and I'm not sure even healthy, he's above Vaz on the depth chart. Putting him in AAA might be a good idea, but we'd need Leon or Vaz to get hurt or suck for him to ever get out of AAA, unless he just totally started raking AAA pitching. This is one reason, I have discussed trading Swihart. Clearly, other teams have greater needs at catching than us.

 

I'd love to keep Swihart. If he could play 1B and HanRam DH, or 3B and Shaw 1B and HR DH, then he could get is PAs at the ML level easily. It would also be nice to have a 3rd catcher for late inning moves. That's why I prefer trading Holt over Swihart, even with the return for Swihart being greater. Plus, Swihart does give us catcher depth, in case of injury or implosion.

 

I don't like the idea of DH'ing Swihart or Moncada. I'd prefer HanRan DH vs RHPs and Young vs LHPs, with Swihart and Moncada pushing to win a corner IF job away from Shaw or HanRam (who could DH full time). There may even be competition from Pablo, but I'm not counting on that.

 

[moonslav59]

I'm working on what our current roster minus Papi might look like next year.

 

I'm fine with this....

 

Swihart starts the season in AAA to get over his injury and get in stride.

 

Moncada goes Winter League and spends ST'ing seriously learning to play 3B. He, too, starts the season in AAA at 3B.

 

These are our 13 positional players on opening day:

 

C- Leon & Vaz

1B HanRam

2B Pedey

3B Shaw

SS Bogey

LF Beni

CF JBJ

RF Betts

DH Young v LHPs/ Pablo v RHPs

Utility: Holt & Hernandez

 

No Pablo? then who? It makes sense to me to have a bat like Swihart or Moncada on the 25 man roster. I guess we could pick up a cheap th OF'er for the last slot.

 

minor league depth:

C- Swihart (Butler/Romanski) --Holaday is out of options

1B- Swihart? S Travis, Witte

2B- Moncada, Rutledge, Marrero

3B- Moncada, Rutledge

SS- Dubon, Marrero, Rutledge

LF- Swihart, (Castillo), Brentz, Ramos, Tavarez

CF- none - we have 3 OF'ers who can all play CF (Castillo)

RF- none - (see CF)

 

 

[Kimmi]

You mentioned DHing Moncada part time in previous posts as well. I think you're trying to out think yourself. In the 40+ years that the DH has been around, I've never seen a team take a young, athletic, highly touted prospect and DH them, part time or not.

 

Moncada & Swihart are two of the best athletes in the organization. They need to play a position every day, not DH. It'll never happen with either one of them next year.

 

Then there's the whole additional mental aspect of trying to DH, play multiple positions, etc. A team like Boston, that puts a ton of resources in training players for the off the field part of the game, isn't going to impede a top prospect's development because they may need a part time DH, 3rd catcher and 5th outfielder on the roster.

 

Agreed. IMO, the most likely candidate for DH right now is Hanley. Maybe he is a player who needs to be more 'engaged' in the game, but so far his numbers as a DH are very good.

 

Regardless of whether it's Hanley or not, I can't see either Moncada or Swihart being our DH next year.

[moonslav59]

Agreed. IMO, the most likely candidate for DH right now is Hanley. Maybe he is a player who needs to be more 'engaged' in the game, but so far his numbers as a DH are very good.

 

Regardless of whether it's Hanley or not, I can't see either Moncada or Swihart being our DH next year.

 

I don't like the idea either, but what if Swihart is hitting .850+ at AAA, and our DH is not doing well. If Swihart can't play 1B, then HanRam will and Swihart (or Moncada) could be the DH for a while.

 

I know this hurts their growth as a fielder and all around player, but if either is the best hitter we have, and we don't have a position for them to play, then DH may be a stop gap choice.

[greenwell]

Agreed. IMO, the most likely candidate for DH right now is Hanley. Maybe he is a player who needs to be more 'engaged' in the game, but so far his numbers as a DH are very good.

 

Regardless of whether it's Hanley or not, I can't see either Moncada or Swihart being our DH next year.

 

I'd noticed his numbers as DH earlier this year as well, then realized those are essentially all against left handed pitchers and his numbers are pretty much in line with his numbers vs lefties. Your point is still valid in that he definitely doesn't do worse as a DH.

[S5Dewey]

Agreed. IMO, the most likely candidate for DH right now is Hanley. Maybe he is a player who needs to be more 'engaged' in the game, but so far his numbers as a DH are very good.

 

Regardless of whether it's Hanley or not, I can't see either Moncada or Swihart being our DH next year.

 

Which makes more sense, Hanley at DH and Swihart (or Shaw) at 1b, or Hanley at 1B and one of those two as DH? You've got the same people in the lineup, and Hanley is not only happy, but he's turned into a respectable 1b.

 

And don't underestimate the value of Hanley being happy vs. Hanely being unhappy.

[cp176]

Which makes more sense, Hanley at DH and Swihart (or Shaw) at 1b, or Hanley at 1B and one of those two as DH? You've got the same people in the lineup, and Hanley is not only happy, but he's turned into a respectable 1b.

 

And don't underestimate the value of Hanley being happy vs. Hanely being unhappy.

 

I absolutely believe that Hanley being happy has contributed greatly to his success this season!

[oldtimer]

I share your feeling, but I'm acting on an assumption that might be totally wrong- we will not make a major acquisition to replace Papi. I'm working on what our current roster minus Papi might look like next year.

 

We may need to put tradition behind us for a short time, so we can put the best hitting team on the field next year. I see the great advantage of putting top athletes in AAA to improve their defense, if there is no starting role on the 25 man roster. That's a long-standing tradition that has a lot of merit. However, our offense may need help, and right now, I see Moncada and Swihart (along with beni in LF) as the leading candidates to greatly increase their MLB PAs from 2016 to 2017. They are ahead of Pablo, Hernandez, Holt, Vazquez and maybe even Young (vs RHPs anyway) on offense.

 

The issue is how to get their bats into the line-up without severely limiting our defense. Moncada looks to need much more time at 3B to be decent on defense. Playing DH and practicing 3B on his off time may not be the ideal chocie, but if his bat can help us win, we may have to put him at DH for a while anyway (vs RHPs). One major reason I suggested Swihart learn 1B or 3B was so he wouldn't have to DH. I have no idea how Sox management views his possibilities as a corner IF'er, and I defer to their judgment on that one. I don't see Swihart beating out Leon next year, and I'm not sure even healthy, he's above Vaz on the depth chart. Putting him in AAA might be a good idea, but we'd need Leon or Vaz to get hurt or suck for him to ever get out of AAA, unless he just totally started raking AAA pitching. This is one reason, I have discussed trading Swihart. Clearly, other teams have greater needs at catching than us.

 

I'd love to keep Swihart. If he could play 1B and HanRam DH, or 3B and Shaw 1B and HR DH, then he could get is PAs at the ML level easily. It would also be nice to have a 3rd catcher for late inning moves. That's why I prefer trading Holt over Swihart, even with the return for Swihart being greater. Plus, Swihart does give us catcher depth, in case of injury or implosion.

 

I don't like the idea of DH'ing Swihart or Moncada. I'd prefer HanRan DH vs RHPs and Young vs LHPs, with Swihart and Moncada pushing to win a corner IF job away from Shaw or HanRam (who could DH full time). There may even be competition from Pablo, but I'm not counting on that.

 

 

First of all I agree with the premise that we shouldn't and won't go after an ageing power hitter and get into a long term contract that could easily turn sour. I understand and share your view of Swihart having a better chance to make the team but I would concentrate on 1st base and assume he would also have utility value in both the outfield and 2nd backup catcher. He is young and has potential to help the team going forward.

 

The Moncada situation is really up in the air as he definitely is not ready to play at the major league level at this time. How much more grooming will he need? I suspect he will start the season in AAA and depending on his progress could be up if a need develops or at least by the all star break. That still is a hope as he really wasn't showing the mental toughness needed. Under those circumstances Shaw can't be traded , since hill and Rutledge are not solid options and Holt would only be a stop gap. I like Rutledge as perhaps a backup but also Hernandez looks like he is more flexible. Then there is Devers in the background. Third is really our most contested position.

 

Holt is a major league player and would have some trade value as an every day player, something he is unlikely to get for the Sox.

 

I still think we need to straighten out the RP situation as a priority. With Ziegler at 38 and a FA, Tazawa probably returning to form as he gets more rested but a FA and Uehara as a great talent but 42 to 43 next year. How long could he go? DD needs to really think long and hard at what he has and bolster the pen with smart pitchers. His move to get Ziegler was good and Abad on paper was better than he has shown to date. Smith may return so it is a complex situation. Guys like Robby Scott who don't throw hard but has a knack for getting guys out is interesting. Do we want hard throwers or guys who are effective? Sometimes one doesn't lead to the other.

[Kimmi]

I don't like the idea either, but what if Swihart is hitting .850+ at AAA, and our DH is not doing well. If Swihart can't play 1B, then HanRam will and Swihart (or Moncada) could be the DH for a while.

 

I know this hurts their growth as a fielder and all around player, but if either is the best hitter we have, and we don't have a position for them to play, then DH may be a stop gap choice.

 

In a crunch, I can understand the need to use one of them as a DH if there is no better option. But that is far different than penciling in one them to be our regular DH at the start of the season, which is what I thought you were saying. IMO, neither one of them should be on our Opening Day roster as the DH.

 

I have been in agreement with a few others here for a while that Swihart should be getting reps at 1B and/or 3B.

[Kimmi]

Which makes more sense, Hanley at DH and Swihart (or Shaw) at 1b, or Hanley at 1B and one of those two as DH? You've got the same people in the lineup, and Hanley is not only happy, but he's turned into a respectable 1b.

 

And don't underestimate the value of Hanley being happy vs. Hanely being unhappy.

 

I do not underestimate the value of a happy Hanley versus an unhappy Hanley. I fully agree that if Hanely's offense will suffer as a DH, then he should stay at first base. Hence, my mention of his possible need to be fully engaged in the game.

 

I am not at all unhappy with Hanley's defense at first base, but he is slightly below average to average defensively. If Hanley is okay with DHing, then Swihart or Shaw could provide a defensive upgrade while keeping the same bats in the line up.

 

Either way, we have a lot of options without having to grossly overpay for an aging free agent.

[Spudboy]

In a crunch, I can understand the need to use one of them as a DH if there is no better option. But that is far different than penciling in one them to be our regular DH at the start of the season, which is what I thought you were saying. IMO, neither one of them should be on our Opening Day roster as the DH.

 

I have been in agreement with a few others here for a while that Swihart should be getting reps at 1B and/or 3B.

 

Great minds think alike.

 

Sort of.

[Kimmi]

Great minds think alike.

 

Sort of.

 

I was actually thinking of you when I posted that.

[Spudboy]

I was actually thinking of you when I posted that.

 

You and I agree much more than you know.

[moonslav59]

Do we want hard throwers or guys who are effective? Sometimes one doesn't lead to the other.

 

Sometimes it's nice to throw a mix at teams.