Red Sox Acquire Drew Pomeranz

[Hugh2]

There are definitely posters who don't care about prospects and only want to win now.

 

I think the best organizations trade overrated talent to supplement their MLB teams and know which prospects to hold onto.

 

I think Espinoza is a good talent. I think the Padres should trade whatever they can to for the chance to get a future ace. I think the Sox need to do whatever they can to keep the MLB roster stocked and the farm system ranked towards the top.

 

Which is probably why the Sox waited until they had Groome signed before making the trade. It's the same theme as the Margot trade, a lot of people thought the Sox overpaid but it was DD being proactive and pretty much avoiding a bidding war by just offering a really good price. He also traded from a position of strength because the Sox already have JBJ/Betts with Beintendi on the way.

 

I get it I do, you can afford to overpay, and it's the price for admission to improve the big league club which is what ultimately matters. My main point is (and DD has a history of this) if you continue to make moves like this there will come a time when your system is gutted and you have nothing left to come up and fill the ranks when you lose these guys to free agency.

 

Maybe DD doesn't do that here, but this is what many people were afraid of when he came here and at the rate he's going.....2 of Moncada, Devers and Benintendi may be gone over the next 365 days.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hugh, 2 of those guys could be gone in 15 days. DD has made a big splash on this roster. It is uniquely his and will continue to be so as he makes moves. There is a chance he isn't done and you are going to see a big time pitching acquisition to go along with Pomeranz.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Which is probably why the Sox waited until they had Groome signed before making the trade. It's the same theme as the Margot trade, a lot of people thought the Sox overpaid but it was DD being proactive and pretty much avoiding a bidding war by just offering a really good price. He also traded from a position of strength because the Sox already have JBJ/Betts with Beintendi on the way.

 

I get it I do, you can afford to overpay, and it's the price for admission to improve the big league club which is what ultimately matters. My main point is (and DD has a history of this) if you continue to make moves like this there will come a time when your system is gutted and you have nothing left to come up and fill the ranks when you lose these guys to free agency.

 

Maybe DD doesn't do that here, but this is what many people were afraid of when he came here and at the rate he's going.....2 of Moncada, Devers and Benintendi may be gone over the next 365 days.

 

Reading between the lines, it sounds like Moncada is nearly as untouchable as Bogaerts was a few years ago.

 

I would not be surprised at all if Moncada & Benintendi are the opening day 3rd baseman & left fielder next season. I just don't think either will be moved.

[Spudboy]

Or reading the same reports published that we all see and read and watching the available video. Believe it or not some of us are as educated and as up to date as you are. We just might not agree with you. What I love is redundancy and condescension.

 

Amen Bro.

[mvp 78]

Which is probably why the Sox waited until they had Groome signed before making the trade. It's the same theme as the Margot trade, a lot of people thought the Sox overpaid but it was DD being proactive and pretty much avoiding a bidding war by just offering a really good price. He also traded from a position of strength because the Sox already have JBJ/Betts with Beintendi on the way.

 

I get it I do, you can afford to overpay, and it's the price for admission to improve the big league club which is what ultimately matters. My main point is (and DD has a history of this) if you continue to make moves like this there will come a time when your system is gutted and you have nothing left to come up and fill the ranks when you lose these guys to free agency.

 

Maybe DD doesn't do that here, but this is what many people were afraid of when he came here and at the rate he's going.....2 of Moncada, Devers and Benintendi may be gone over the next 365 days.

 

If he dumps Moncada, Devers and Benintendi, we'll all be having a different conversation unless they get Trout and another top starter back.

[mvp 78]

Hugh, 2 of those guys could be gone in 15 days. DD has made a big splash on this roster. It is uniquely his and will continue to be so as he makes moves. There is a chance he isn't done and you are going to see a big time pitching acquisition to go along with Pomeranz.

 

Most people "in the know" think he's done with pitching and may grab a bat. Not sure any of the top 3 would go in a trade for a bat.

[mvp 78]

Which is probably why the Sox waited until they had Groome signed before making the trade. It's the same theme as the Margot trade, a lot of people thought the Sox overpaid but it was DD being proactive and pretty much avoiding a bidding war by just offering a really good price. He also traded from a position of strength because the Sox already have JBJ/Betts with Beintendi on the way.

 

I get it I do, you can afford to overpay, and it's the price for admission to improve the big league club which is what ultimately matters. My main point is (and DD has a history of this) if you continue to make moves like this there will come a time when your system is gutted and you have nothing left to come up and fill the ranks when you lose these guys to free agency.

 

Maybe DD doesn't do that here, but this is what many people were afraid of when he came here and at the rate he's going.....2 of Moncada, Devers and Benintendi may be gone over the next 365 days.

 

Well, he took a dump of a Detroit organization and made them perennial contenders. He hasn't been given the keys to an organization like the Sox. We'll see what happens. I doubt he guts the organization though.

[d-money]

Hope for a good second half. Nothing's written on paper. You gotta play the games on the field.

[jonnylongfella]

For everyone worrying that Pomeranz only has 2 pitches: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/drew-pomeranz-now-with-50-more-pitches/

 

Obviously, we all have concerns as to how he will hold up, how many innings, etc, but what really sticks out to me in this analysis is the fact that he allows a obscenely low .328 OPS the 3rd time through the order. Which is best in the league by 100 points. By the time our back end starters have been getting through the order for a 3rd time, there are runs-o-plenty being allowed.

[mvp 78]

Obviously, we all have concerns as to how he will hold up, how many innings, etc, but what really sticks out to me in this analysis is the fact that he allows a obscenely low .328 OPS the 3rd time through the order. Which is best in the league by 100 points. By the time our back end starters have been getting through the order for a 3rd time, there are runs-o-plenty being allowed.

 

We're lucky if our back end starters get through the lineup the second time without being lit up.

 

I think Pomeranz has this kind of success against hitters because he really changes up his speeds, especially with his fastball.

[SoxnCycles]

He is pitching better than Porcello right now and I believe that Wright is going to start experiencing diminishing returns. He is our 2nd best starter right now.

 

Porcello has also pitched a dozen games in Fenway, Camden Yards and the Rogers Centre.

 

I'll be impressed if Pomeranz does as well in those venues.

[Dojji]

Well, he took a dump of a Detroit organization and made them perennial contenders. He hasn't been given the keys to an organization like the Sox. We'll see what happens. I doubt he guts the organization though.

 

 

Yeah, that's a great point actually. People saying he "failed" in Detroit don't have enough memory to recall what the Tigers were up until 2003 when DD came in.

 

In In 2002, the last year of the previous regime, the Tigers went 55-106. The year he took over, the Tigers were 43-119 3 years after he took over the team the Tigers were in the 2006 World Series and in the next 6 years they made the WS one more time and the ALCS twice. For a team that is simply not a powerhouse and usually ranges from terrible to slightly above average, that's simply impressive.

 

Considering where the team was when he started, and where it was when he finished (a regular in the playoffs and coming close to winning a title several times), I'd have to call BS on people calling Detroit his regime a "failure." May not have gotten all the way but turned the Tigers from a joke to a contender, and developed quite a few homegrown guys in the process.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Dojji

[Nick]

If Pomeranz lives up to the billing, this trade is a win-win. We get what we need right now, to compete over a 3 year playoff window, which is about as far as you can predict playoff contention. And the Padres, who need to do a full rebuild, get a potential centerpiece of that rebuild. Both teams gave up a lot, and both teams picked up a piece that suited their needs. I think this trade was well thought out on both sides from that perspective.

 

 

this +1

[moonslav59]

But if Buchholz or Kelly or Owens pitched as well as a lot of people hoped they might this situation wouldn't be what it is. There were a lot of things that led to this-most of them were inherited from Ben.

 

But, but, but!

We all knew our biggest weakness was pitching way before now. This should not have been a surprise that cause a panic move

[User Name]

I would like an explanation regarding how this qualifies as a "panic move".

[Dojji]

But, but, but!

We all knew our biggest weakness was pitching way before now. This should not have been a surprise that cause a panic move

 

I don't think this was a panic move. I think he did what DD usually does -- identify his guy and pays what it takes to get him. In DD's world the farm system exists to serve the big league roster not the other way around, and I agree with him.

 

I will note that there are guys that are untouchable to DD. An 18 year old in A ball just doesn't qualify. He's protected the Killer B's as well as Benintendi and Moncada. At a certain point you just have to recognize that you can't make EVERYONE untouchable. To bring a starting pitcher onto the team and improve the team from the top down, the price is going to hurt, it's only a question of how much and which kind of pain.

 

Any trade for a guy of this caliber that we were perfectly happy with, the Padres guys hang up the phone. That's what "seller's market" means. No one understands that better than DD, who has the sense to keep his eyes on the prize and works to win the World Series rather than winning the trade.

[Nick]

Sox has $60M invested in Moncada.....he's not going anywhere.

 

In 4 years

 

C Swihart 1B Travis 2B Moncada SS Xander 3B Devers LF Benintendi CF Bradley RF Betts DH Okimey ...looking good.

 

I can see this OF playing together for another 10 years.....Bradley is an elite athlete..as Betts...Benintendi will hang with them.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Nick

[Nick]

I don't think this was a panic move. I think he did what DD usually does -- identify his guy and pays what it takes to get him. In DD's world the farm system exists to serve the big league roster not the other way around, and I agree with him.

 

I will note that there are guys that are untouchable to DD. An 18 year old in A ball just doesn't qualify. He's protected the Killer B's as well as Benintendi and Moncada. At a certain point you just have to recognize that you can't make EVERYONE untouchable. To bring a starting pitcher onto the team and improve the team from the top down, the price is going to hurt, it's only a question of how much and which kind of pain.

 

Any trade for a guy of this caliber that we were perfectly happy with, the Padres guys hang up the phone. That's what "seller's market" means. No one understands that better than DD, who has the sense to keep his eyes on the prize and works to win the World Series rather than winning the trade.

 

This +1000

[User Name]

That will never happen because of attrition, trades, and some of those guys not panning out.

[Jack Flap]

Haven't caught up on the last 10+ pages of this thread yet, but the idea that Espinoza was "struggling" in A-ball seems a bit overblown. His FIP was 3.09. He was more than holding his own at age 18, and his high rankings on all midseason prospect lists so far reflect that.

 

Anyway, other than that, I've said my piece on him. I don't love the deal, but it's done and I'm just going to choose to be optimistic. Hopefully Pomeranz is indeed the savior that has been prophesied.

[SoxnCycles]

Haven't caught up on the last 10+ pages of this thread yet, but the idea that Espinoza was "struggling" in A-ball seems a bit overblown. His FIP was 3.09. He was more than holding his own at age 18, and his high rankings on all midseason prospect lists so far reflect that.

 

Anyway, other than that, I've said my piece on him. I don't love the deal, but it's done and I'm just going to choose to be optimistic. Hopefully Pomeranz is indeed the savior that has been prophesied.

 

Yup.

I hope that doesn't make us "whiners".

[Jack Flap]

We're all whiners at some point...I can live with that.

[SoxnCycles]

True.

[mvp 78]

Haven't caught up on the last 10+ pages of this thread yet, but...

 

It has been the same since the first 10.

[mvp 78]

We're all whiners at some point...I can live with that.

 

Yup.

[jacksonianmarch]

My major point to you guys was whether you thought you could have gotten something more for Espinoza

[Dojji]

Probably not. The price of pitching is extreme right now with a lot more demand than supply. And Espinosa is an 18 year old

[Nick]

Hell, we all want more for Espinoza. I would argue that he has a chance to be the next P Martinez.

 

But apparently Pomeranz was all we could get RIGHT NOW. Such is the free market system.

[Eddy Ballgame]

My major point to you guys was whether you thought you could have gotten something more for Espinoza

 

As part of a package maybe, but who's available? The Braves keep saying they aren't trading Teheran and it sounds like the Sox had some concerns with him. Gray, maybe, but it would've likely cost more and there's no guarantee he'll be moved, either.

[mvp 78]

Hell, we all want more for Espinoza. I would argue that he has a chance to be the next P Martinez.

 

But apparently Pomeranz was all we could get RIGHT NOW. Such is the free market system.

 

The question is what is the chance he'll become Pedro. If it's 50%, you keep Espinoza. If it's less than 25%, you probably move him without worrying.