Red Sox Acquire Drew Pomeranz

[mvp 78]

Yes he was already a fixture because they held onto him and let him develop. Also as pointed out earlier trading away a top prospect helped them win in 2004 so I'm not against ever trading top prospects I just A.) don't want to be fleeced and B.) don't want to go overboard and gut the system.

 

With this trade I do think we overpaid but we haven't gut the system, and I understand it's a sellers market and this is the price you pay. But Warrent Buffett didn't become rich from always buying at the top and selling on the bottom, if trades like this is the norm and teams always go for it at all cost there will come a day when your team is s***.

 

Well, even Soxprospects hasn't said they were fleeced. Given the team they have right now, especially on offense, and the lack of starting pitching options both at the big league level and in the high minors, the opportunity to acquire a 27-year-old pitcher who has shown the ability to be an impact starter and has two more years of team control was likely too good to pass up.

 

Our team was already s*** in 2012, 2014 and 2015. Might as well try for the rings when you can.

[SoxnCycles]

Since Espinoza won't be in the bigs until 2021, I look forward to this topic being in the deadhorse thread for the next 5 years.

 

I'm sure the Four Horsemen will have no trouble keeping it going.

[Hugh2]

Where's casey kelley these days? Nobody knows what espinoza will become

 

Espinoza is not Casey kelley, you shouldn't compare prospects if you know little about them.

[d-money]

Well, even Soxprospects hasn't said they were fleeced. Given the team they have right now, especially on offense, and the lack of starting pitching options both at the big

league level and in the high minors, the opportunity to acquire a 27-year-old pitcher who has shown the ability to be an impact starter and has two more years of team control was likely too good to pass up.

 

Our team was already s*** in 2012, 2014 and 2015. Might as well try for the rings when you can.

 

If we win the WS then nobody will give a damn. I just hope Pomeranz's durable. He's a big guy.

[d-money]

Espinoza is not Casey kelley, you shouldn't compare prospects if you know little about them.

 

How about waiting a couple of years before you pronounce espinoza's the second coming of pedro martinez

[Hugh2]

Well, even Soxprospects hasn't said they were fleeced. Given the team they have right now, especially on offense, and the lack of starting pitching options both at the big league level and in the high minors, the opportunity to acquire a 27-year-old pitcher who has shown the ability to be an impact starter and has two more years of team control was likely too good to pass up.

 

Our team was already s*** in 2012, 2014 and 2015. Might as well try for the rings when you can.

 

Fleeced is the wrong word. As the old saying goes a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. They paid the price for admission but you'll run out of money eventually if you go crazy. If the Sox make a trade like this every year then you can expect a team in the basement in 4-6 years from now. I don't want to just go for it...I want to build a DYNASTY. I want a New England Patriot mentality of never giving up more value than you're bringing in, because eventually you rarely have to make these trades.

 

I'm not 80 years old, I don't have to worry about dying next year so I want the Sox to go for it this year at all costs.

[Bellhorn04]

If we win the WS then nobody will give a damn.

 

Not true of everybody. There is still griping about the Iggy-Peavy trade.

[Hugh2]

How about waiting a couple of years before you pronounce espinoza's the second coming of pedro martinez

 

How about not saying things I didn't say....although while we're on the subject he has been compared to Pedro Martinez by others. Funny you should bring that up.

[mvp 78]

Some might call this a challenge trade: you give me the guy I want, I’ll give you the guy you want and we’ll see who’s right. But Dombrowski actually would have preferred giving up a group of lesser prospects had that been on the table.

 

“I’d rather trade three other type guys than Anderson, but that wasn’t appealing to San Diego,” Dombrowski said.

 

The only way to get a good starter was giving up a good piece.

[d-money]

Fleeced is the wrong word. As the old saying goes a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. They paid the price for admission but you'll run out of money eventually if you go crazy. If the Sox make a trade like this every year then you can

expect a team in the basement in 4-6 years from now. I don't want to just go for it...I want to build a DYNASTY. I want a New England Patriot mentality of never giving up more value than you're bringing in, because eventually you rarely have to make these trades.

 

I'm not 80 years old, I don't have to worry about dying next year so I want the Sox to go for it this year at all costs.

 

 

So you must think espinoza will be a sure thing. If we win a world series or two and espinoza becomes a stud then i would take that trade-off in a heartbeat.

[mvp 78]

Not true of everybody. There is still griping about the Iggy-Peavy trade.

 

I'd rather have Xander at SS and the ring. The Sox didn't lose anything with that trade when they had a better SS on their roster.

[Bellhorn04]

Fleeced is the wrong word. As the old saying goes a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. They paid the price for admission but you'll run out of money eventually if you go crazy. If the Sox make a trade like this every year then you can expect a team in the basement in 4-6 years from now. I don't want to just go for it...I want to build a DYNASTY. I want a New England Patriot mentality of never giving up more value than you're bringing in, because eventually you rarely have to make these trades.

 

It's next to impossible to have a true dynasty in MLB anymore. Too many things working against it. Bud Selig's idea was Parity = More Excited Fans = The Most Possible Revenue.

[mvp 78]

Fleeced is the wrong word. As the old saying goes a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. They paid the price for admission but you'll run out of money eventually if you go crazy. If the Sox make a trade like this every year then you can expect a team in the basement in 4-6 years from now. I don't want to just go for it...I want to build a DYNASTY. I want a New England Patriot mentality of never giving up more value than you're bringing in, because eventually you rarely have to make these trades.

 

I'm not 80 years old, I don't have to worry about dying next year so I want the Sox to go for it this year at all costs.

 

I'm not worried about dying either. However, I am worried about the performances I see daily on NESN.

[mvp 78]

Also, if the Red Sox want to be the Pats, they need the best pitcher in baseball and the best manager in baseball. They don't have either.

 

The Pats also make shrewd moves and let veterans go before they expire. The Pats would trade Pedey without second guessing.

[Hugh2]

So you must think espinoza will be a sure thing. If we win a world series or two and espinoza becomes a stud then i would take that trade-off in a heartbeat.

 

Dude stop making straw man arguments. No prospect is a sure thing, but if you draft and develop better than everyone else then odds are you will be better in the long run by hoarding them.

 

Think of it this way the Sox got screwed over by not selling high on Bryce Brentz, Henry Owens (maybe), Will middlebrooks, and Lars Anderson....but that Hoarding mentality also led to a team that has Bogaerts, Betts, JBJ, Vasquez, and Shaw on it.

 

I dont' know if Espinoza is a sure thing, if Groome will be a sure thing or if Kopech will be a sure thing but I'd be willing to bet one of those guys develops into a much better pitcher than Pomeranz....and with a a little luck 2-3 of them might and then all of a sudden you have what the Mets have in your rotation.

Edited July 15, 2016 by A Red Sox fan named Hugh

[Hugh2]

Also, if the Red Sox want to be the Pats, they need the best pitcher in baseball and the best manager in baseball. They don't have either.

 

The Pats also make shrewd moves and let veterans go before they expire. The Pats would trade Pedey without second guessing.

 

I agree, Pedey would be long gone by now and Moncada would be your future 2nd. Actually Betts would probably be your 2nd baseman right now.

[greenwell]

How about not saying things I didn't say....although while we're on the subject he has been compared to Pedro Martinez by others. Funny you should bring that up.

 

Pedro never struggled at any level at any age.

[mvp 78]

Dude stop making straw man arguments. No prospect is a sure thing, but if you draft and develop better than everyone else then odds are you will be better in the long run by hoarding them.

 

Think of it this way the Sox got screwed over by not selling high on Bryce Brentz, Henry Owens (maybe), Will middlebrooks, and Lars Anderson....but that Hoarding mentality also led to a team that has Bogaerts, Betts, JBJ, Vasquez, and Shaw on it.

 

Yet, they have struggled to develop legitimate starters except for Lester for the majority of my lifetime. So I guess the Sox would do better not to hoard prospects?

[SoxnCycles]

For everyone worrying that Pomeranz only has 2 pitches: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/drew-pomeranz-now-with-50-more-pitches/

 

What does a tabloid outfit like Fangraphs know?

[mvp 78]

I agree, Pedey would be long gone by now and Moncada would be your future 2nd. Actually Betts would probably be your 2nd baseman right now.

 

And we all would have bitched and moaned about the move, but when it worked out we would have just shrugged our shoulders after the fact. The Pats draft and develop players well. The Pats also know which veterans to bring in as role players.

 

It's not completely analogous, but the Pats are a much better run organization, imo. I believe that's because there are fewer voices making the moves. When the Sox have gotten into trouble, it's when there are too many cooks in the kitchen. Frankly, if Dombrowski is calling the shots and making all final decisions, the Sox will be better for it than if we still had Theo and Larry and John Henry and Werner and whoever else feeding the monster.

[Hugh2]

Yet, they have struggled to develop legitimate starters except for Lester for the majority of my lifetime. So I guess the Sox would do better not to hoard prospects?

 

But that's the wrong way of looking at it. Not all prospects are the same A, B the Sox haven't really drafted high end talent pitching prospects. Sure they took guys like Owens and Barnes but they were late 1st round picks, how many late first round hitters make it? Most teams DON'T develop top end pitching because it is one of the rarest commodities in baseball.

 

And, I'd also argue that both Groome and Espinoza are not comparable to any pitching prospect they've had in the minors in quite some time so you don't really have an apples to apples comparison with keeping those two in the system compared to pitching prospects over the last several years.

 

The closes thing I can think of to the Groome/Espinoza/Kopech trio was back in 05 I believe they had Buchholz, Lester, Papelbon, and Anibal Sanchez in the system.

[mvp 78]

What does a tabloid outfit like Fangraphs know?

 

Don't you say that about my favorite web tribune! It's from God's fingertips to my screen!

[mvp 78]

]But that's the wrong way of looking at it. Not all prospects are the same A' date=' B the Sox haven't really drafted high end talent pitching prospects.[/b'] Sure they took guys like Owens and Barnes but they were late 1st round picks, how many late first round hitters make it? Most teams DON'T develop top end pitching because it is one of the rarest commodities in baseball.

 

And, I'd also argue that both Groome and Espinoza are not comparable to any pitching prospect they've had in the minors in quite some time so you don't really have an apples to apples comparison with keeping those two in the system compared to pitching prospects over the last several years.

 

The closes thing I can think of to the Groome/Espinoza/Kopech trio was back in 05 I believe they had Buchholz, Lester, Papelbon, and Anibal Sanchez in the system.

 

Was Espinoza a high draft pick?

 

Would you be opposed to trading a high draft pick like Trey Ball?

 

Why haven't the Sox been able to create a decent pipeline of starters? Other competitive teams have regardless of their MLB standings.

[Hugh2]

Pedro never struggled at any level at any age.

 

I don't care. That doesn't mean anything.

[d-money]

Don't you say that about my favorite web tribune! It's from God's fingertips to my screen!

 

I love his curve ball. Does he throw the cut fastball?

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Because he's 18 and facing guys 3-4 years older than him. Also 18 year olds don't throw lots of innings and are building up arm strength and still filling out, this is his very first full season of professional baseball. This is a kid who has never thrown more than 48.1 innings in a season....think about that. That can throw a guys mechanics off but scouts seem little concerned with his struggles....if anything it will make him a better pitcher one day.

 

I specifically remember soxprospects predicting he would struggle more the rest of the year yet his prospect status wouldn't drop one bit. I'll double down on that bet. In the absence of injury I'd suspect a big jump forward when he enters his second full season at 19 and lot stronger.

 

You keep harping on the fact that Pomeranian has never pitched more than 150 innings in a season but you are all goo goo eyed over a kid who hasn't pitched 50 innings in A ball.

[Slasher9]

Did Pedro ever struggle like that?

 

pedro's 18 yo season:

Pioneer League

3.62 ERA / 77IP / 74H / 40BB / 1.48 WHIP / K-W 2.09

 

Espy's (thus far):

Greenville A Ball

4.38 ERA / 76IP / 77H / 27BB / 1.36 WHIP / K-W 2.67

Edited July 15, 2016 by Slasher9

[Spudboy]

You keep harping on the fact that Pomeranian has never pitched more than 150 innings in a season but you are all goo goo eyed over a kid who hasn't pitched 50 innings in A ball.

 

lol

 

I think DD mad a necessary move. I won't be pissed if Pompom does not do well and help us get to the play-offs this year. I would be pissed if DD stood pat and said "we think that we have enough pitching to get there this year without a move".

 

 

I like that Pom is under control for two plus years and is currently making 1/10 of what Buch is being paid. A no brainer!

[Slasher9]

Fine FA's instead of trades. Not much of a difference in my opinion.

 

full stop. what???!!!!!!

[Hugh2]

Was Espinoza a high draft pick?

 

Would you be opposed to trading a high draft pick like Trey Ball?

 

Why haven't the Sox been able to create a decent pipeline of starters? Other competitive teams have regardless of their MLB standings.

 

I would trade Trey Ball for a bag of balls. While top 10 draft picks pan out much more often even they are completely busts sometimes even #1 overall picks are. The Trey Ball draft class was considered a very weak class and in hindsight the Sox picked the wrong guy...so what? teams that picked there every year a decade would swing and miss on year and hit the jackpot the next. The Orioles drafted Matt Hobgood one year in the top ten and then Manny Machado the very next in the top ten.

 

Think of draft picks as lottery tickets with higher chances to win the higher your pick is, even a top ten pick isn't a sure thing but you have much higher chance. Sox were no different than the Orioles, they swung and missed on Ball and hit the jack pot a few years later with Benintendi. Also to reiterate my point one reason the Sox have NOT been able to develop starters is they have not had pitching prospects with the pedigree of Groome, and Espinoza in their system in a long time. Owens didn't have that pedigree, Barnes didn't have that pedigree, Webster didn't, nobody has in recent years. Now this comes with the obvious caveat that he's still a young pitching prospect who can completely bust, I'm well aware of that and I don't understand why some in here feel the need to keep on bringing that up. But I remember hearing on a (I think it was) a B.A. chat that if Espinoza was state side and a HS senior he'd been in contention for the #1 pick in the draft.

 

Again, high end talent can bust, even the #1 pick in the draft can bust but we've not had a talent like Espinoza in our system for a long time and we gave if up for a reliever who in just once season has become a good starter.

 

Ok, I think this may be a better way of laying out my argument. If Pomeranz had been a MLB starter his entire MLB career, and put up the numbers he's putting up this year this would be a really good trade for the Sox and I'd be on board with it, but he hasn't. He's a reliever who has converted back to a starter successfully for 1/2 a season. He has ZERO track record of holding that up in the post season let alone a 32 game season. People are acting like we got a proven commodity we didn't, DD took a risk.

 

Now that risk might pay off big time, maybe Pom is the next Max Scherzer and he wins the Cy Young next year for all we know, but people are ok trading away a highly regarded prospect because they are risky and acting like there is zero risk here. Maybe they are just underestimating the risk I'm not sure, but that is the way I see things.