Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[mvp 78]

Was it a grand slam? No. He gave up 4 runs in the game but only 3 were earned. Hence....you do know that 1 of the runs was unearned, right?

 

I understood that. My point is that you don't accumulate runs without getting people on base. Clearly there was more than one bad pitch. The one bad pitch analysis is completely bogus imo, especially when the guy allows 4 walks and 5 hits. It's not like he was throwing a gem.

[Slasher9]

I understood that. My point is that you don't accumulate runs without getting people on base. Clearly there was more than one bad pitch. The one bad pitch analysis is completely bogus imo, especially when the guy allows 4 walks and 5 hits. It's not like he was throwing a gem.

 

i think there is a major philosophy flaw here. every base hit (whether it be a single, double, triple, HR) isn't on a "bad pitch". Most times the pitcher makes his pitch and the hitter does HIS job. the 3 run HR we seem to be perserverating on was a 2 seam FB on the inner half that started off the plate and came back. guy put a good swing on it and it wrapped the pole. tip your cap and move on. that's what clay did. had he given up multiple HR's and multiple crooked number innings then i would maybe see the point you are trying to force. but it is what it is.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Slasher9

[Slasher9]

I rarely miss a Red Sox game. If I can't see it live, I DVR it and watch it. I watch large portions of many other games, more Mets games than other teams.

 

one thing i really like about the DIRECTV extra innings is that you can set the DVR to "season record" your team. i have it set to record every RS game. many times i dont start watching a 7pm start until 9 or so. FF the commercials and pitching changes i can almost catch up to realtime by the time the game ends.

not sure if you have directv but if so, check out the "season record" option.

[S5Dewey]

There were a whole bunch o' bad pitches combined with one worst pitch and it was that worst pitch that did him in.

 

Every pitcher makes bad pitches in every game. The trick is not making those worst pitches - which is what Buch (and everyone supporting him here) is lamenting. His games have now become a microcosm of his career - they're either very good or very bad and there doesn't seem to be much 'mediocre'.

[Slasher9]

Let's say we don't (everyone here watches most games, but let's humor you). Do we need to watch the games to know CB is sucking?

 

my post had much to do with Clay's last start, not his cumulative numbers to this point. did you think he "sucked" in his last start?

[Youk Of The Nation]

my post had much to do with Clay's last start, not his cumulative numbers to this point. did you think he "sucked" in his last start?

 

He gave up four runs, three of them earned. 50% of the hits he gave up went for extra bases. He gave up a home run, walked more guys than he struck out, and took the loss. So yeah, I think he sucked last start.

[Slasher9]

He gave up four runs, three of them earned. 50% of the hits he gave up went for extra bases. He gave up a home run, walked more guys than he struck out, and took the loss. So yeah, I think he sucked last start.

 

I'm not saying your wrong but MLB calls it a Quality Start.

[Slasher9]

He gave up four runs, three of them earned. 50% of the hits he gave up went for extra bases. He gave up a home run, walked more guys than he struck out, and took the loss. So yeah, I think he sucked last start.

 

he gave up a total of 5 hits. 3 XBH.

a double to leadoff the game - no runs scored.

the 3 run HR.

and a leadoff double in the 6th where again he didnt allow the runner to score.

he had 8 swing and miss strikes and 11 looking. the 4 BB in 6 IP is too many and would like that number to be cut in half. 2 of the 4 batters that walked scored.

[User Name]

I'm not saying your wrong but MLB calls it a Quality Start.

 

.....which doesn't preclude a pitcher from sucking overall.

[Dojji]

I'm not saying your wrong but MLB calls it a Quality Start.

 

 

Yeah about that. That standard of a "quality" start was arrived at right in the middle of the Steroid Era, when a pitcher with a 4.50 ERA was consdered average. In fact in 2007 Tim Wakefield won 17 games and had an ERA of 4.76 and his ERA+ was 100 -- exactly average. In that era a quality start per se made sense, since that was the level required to allow a team with an average offense to score 5 runs and win a game.

 

Now an average team scores somewhere between 3 and 4 runs in a game so a pitcher with a 4.50 ERA is considered awful, therefore the quality start stat needs to be reexamined as an actually valuable standard of performance. You can not be an average pitcher anymore if you keep your ERA at 4.50, as you could when the quality start was first conceived of.

 

I'm not saying throw the stat out completely, I'm saying that it can't always be a minimum standard of success. And also that the fact that Buchholz barely met even that extremely low bar in his last start, cannot possibly be viewed as a bright spot.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

I think the Quality Start stat still has validity. It's true that overall run scoring has gone down. But on the other hand innings pitched by starters also keep going down as it becomes more and more of a bullpen game. If the starter goes 6 innings and gives up 3 earned runs or less he is giving you a reasonable chance to win.

 

You could tinker with it of course but what's the point. We already have the 'High Quality Start' which is 7 IP and 2 ER or less. And now we have the Bill James 'Game Score' as well.

[a700hitter]

I think it was Lou Merloni who said that a Quality Start meant that you just had to suck a little.

[Bellhorn04]

Quality Start % is more meaningful. Buch is only .333 in that department.

[a700hitter]

Quality Start % is more meaningful. Buch is only .333 in that department.

Wins is obviously not a great stat because it depends on the offense producing for the pitcher, but if a pitcher is a leader in Wins and has a good ERA, he is probably a good pitcher. When evaluating a pitcher, there is no single stat that is definitive. If I look at IP, ERA, WHIP, at k/9, that is enough for me to gauge the quality of a pitcher. Quality Starts is useless to me.

[Hugh2]

E-Rod scheduled to pitch tomorrow. I guess it wasnt' that much of a set up, which is for encouraging.

[User Name]

They fitted him with a brace he's comfortable with. Supposedly he wasn't very confident putting pressure on his bad knee.

[FredLynn]

They fitted him with a brace he's comfortable with. Supposedly he wasn't very confident putting pressure on his bad knee.

 

Does he plan to pitch with the brace on? I don't remember any pitcher ever pitching that way. Something is not right with the explanation we have been given, not that we are entitled to the truth.

[a700hitter]

Does he plan to pitch with the brace on? I don't remember any pitcher ever pitching that way. Something is not right with the explanation we have been given, not that we are entitled to the truth.

CC pitches with a knee brace.

[mvp 78]

i think there is a major philosophy flaw here. every base hit (whether it be a single, double, triple, HR) isn't on a "bad pitch". Most times the pitcher makes his pitch and the hitter does HIS job. the 3 run HR we seem to be perserverating on was a 2 seam FB on the inner half that started off the plate and came back. guy put a good swing on it and it wrapped the pole. tip your cap and move on. that's what clay did. had he given up multiple HR's and multiple crooked number innings then i would maybe see the point you are trying to force. but it is what it is.

 

So the homerun wasn't a bad pitch then? So he threw zero bad pitches the other day?

[a700hitter]

The whole "he only made a few bad pitches and got burned" argument is misleading and disingenuous. Schilling always said that the difference between success and failure each start was about half a dozen pitches that you have to execute. If you can't execute those pitches, you will probably fail no matter how "electric" your stuff was in that outing.

[Bellhorn04]

When you give up 5 hits and 4 walks in 6 innings you deserve to give up 3-4 runs. You usually will.

[mvp 78]

The whole "he only made a few bad pitches and got burned" argument is misleading and disingenuous.

 

That's basically my point. Buchholz isn't struggling because of one or two bad pitches a game. He's just not pitching very well right now.

[Slasher9]

They fitted him with a brace he's comfortable with. Supposedly he wasn't very confident putting pressure on his bad knee.

oh no. sounds like he is mentally fragile like clay?

[Slasher9]

So the homerun wasn't a bad pitch then? So he threw zero bad pitches the other day?

 

all pitchers miss spots. and all pitchers throw bad pitches throughout a game. they dont always get destroyed. how many times have you seen a batter just miss a cookie or take a spinning breaking pitch because they were looking FB?

that particular pitch wasnt a bad miss. it probably leaked an inch more than he wanted but it wasn't middle-middle.

sometimes a batter guesses right. tip your cap.

[Slasher9]

CC pitches with a knee brace.

 

yup. i think he has for awhile.

[CliffKlowers]

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2016/04/clay_buchholz_boston_red_sox_r.html

[mvp 78]

oh no. sounds like he is mentally fragile like clay?

 

I don't really think he's mentally fragile. He seems physically fragile though. Guys with his frame and injury history don't typically have long careers.

[Hugh2]

The whole "he only made a few bad pitches and got burned" argument is misleading and disingenuous. Schilling always said that the difference between success and failure each start was about half a dozen pitches that you have to execute. If you can't execute those pitches, you will probably fail no matter how "electric" your stuff was in that outing.

 

Not that I disagree but there is a difference between not having electric stuff and not being able to execute. The outcome might be the same if you can't execute but if you have good stuff the potential for excellence is there. You can't teach 99 MPH, and you can't teach longer fingers being able to spin a breaking ball.

[Spudboy]

It's awesome. Clean, spacious, affordable, everything you could want in a modern ballpark. It doesn't have the history of a lot of other parks (Fenway, Wrigley, the original Yankee Stadium), but it really was a great place to go. It's a shame that their first decade of operation lacked a competitive team to bring in enough fans to make it worthwhile. I can't even imagine what it's like now that the Pirates are contenders, when the stadium is almost full. There are few things greater than 30 thousand baseball fans making a stadium shake and deafening you whenever a HR is hit.

 

Pittsburg has come a long way since the steel industry collapsed. That stadium and it's back drop are cool.

 

I'd love to go there. Also, I want to see what all the fuss is about Permanties.

[illinoisredsox]

all pitchers miss spots. and all pitchers throw bad pitches throughout a game. they dont always get destroyed. how many times have you seen a batter just miss a cookie or take a spinning breaking pitch because they were looking FB?

that particular pitch wasnt a bad miss. it probably leaked an inch more than he wanted but it wasn't middle-middle.

sometimes a batter guesses right. tip your cap.

 

Yeah, that's what makes this a great and funny game. The homer was hit well, but it was a Pesky Pole homer, and would have hooked foul almost anywhere else (probably stays fair in Yankee Stadium).

 

Major league pitcher give up home runs. They just do, they are facing major league hitters. It's the type you give up that matters. One of the great stats I've ever seen was about the old Orioles pitcher and noted hypochondriac, Jim Palmer. He allowed 303 homers over his 19 year career. In his prime, you could pretty much put him down for giving up around 20 a year. His totals were 193 solo homers, 83 2-run homers, 27 3-run homers and 0 grand slams. Think about that, 276 of those 303 were 1 or 2 run homers. That is minimizing damage.

 

By contrast, Buchholz this year alone has allowed 2 solo homers, 4 2-run blasts, a 3-run homer and 2 grand slams.