All things Moncada

[mvp 78]

I figured there has been enough talk of him this year that he should be given his own thread.

 

When would you promote him to AA?

 

Would you want to move him to a new position since he's "blocked?"

[cp176]

I figured there has been enough talk of him this year that he should be given his own thread.

 

When would you promote him to AA?

 

Would you want to move him to a new position since he's "blocked?"

 

Now that he is in Portland, I think they will eventually have (key word here is eventually) to move him from second to somewhere else if they intend to keep him. Third and an outfield position look like the best bets.

[mvp 78]

It's a pretty substantial jump to AA (as we are seeing with Benintendi) so I'd prefer to just leave him at 2b until his bat adjusts. Even then, I'd probably just leave him at 2b for the rest of the season. If they want to move him off of 2b, the offseason is a great time to do it.

[Hugh2]

It's a pretty substantial jump to AA (as we are seeing with Benintendi) so I'd prefer to just leave him at 2b until his bat adjusts. Even then, I'd probably just leave him at 2b for the rest of the season. If they want to move him off of 2b, the offseason is a great time to do it.

 

Benintendi has been in AA for a month now. He struggled his first couple weeks but has succeed in the last couple. Through his last 14 of 29 games in Portland he is batting .291/.333/.564 And his BABIP has actually been a decent amount lower throughout this time as well.

 

Although I do agree the jump to AA is one of the hardest, and I also agree that Moncada shouldn't be moved off of position until his bat is more MLB ready. However I think it looks like Benintendi has made the adjustment in Portland to date.

[sk7326]

Benintendi is .350/.400/.675 in his last 10 games (small sample, but effectively the second half of his month there.

 

Obviously prospects take time and such, but if he puts something good out in the next month or so, moving him into Holt's position is still very much on the table.

 

They are being slower with Moncada just because of the comparative lack of experience. But yes, 3B or an outfield corner start to look likely for him.

[Hugh2]

Benintendi is .350/.400/.675 in his last 10 games (small sample, but effectively the second half of his month there.

 

Obviously prospects take time and such, but if he puts something good out in the next month or so, moving him into Holt's position is still very much on the table.

 

They are being slower with Moncada just because of the comparative lack of experience. But yes, 3B or an outfield corner start to look likely for him.

 

Ultimately I don't think we should see Benintendi this year, but if he's still mashing his way through the system and LF is still a huge hole I think the kid will end up just forcing the issue.

[Slasher9]

just to confirm....Moncada has been moved up to AA, correct?

[Hugh2]

just to confirm....Moncada has been moved up to AA, correct?

 

Yup, he makes his debut tonight.

[Slasher9]

awesome. thanks hugh. looking forward to you updating us occasionally on how he is faring at that level.

[Spudboy]

awesome. thanks hugh. looking forward to you updating us occasionally on how he is faring at that level.

 

It's pretty cool now with "Hugh" on board as well as cp176. Both of them follow the Sox minor leagues. Saves me a bunch of time. I'm lazy as f*** that way!

[cp176]

It's pretty cool now with "Hugh" on board as well as cp176. Both of them follow the Sox minor leagues. Saves me a bunch of time. I'm lazy as f*** that way!

 

You're a good one. I'm looking forward to getting down to Portland to see them this weekend. Obviously Moncada and Benintendi get the headlines, but more often than not somebody else appears down there that no one talks much about.

[Bellhorn04]

It's pretty cool now with "Hugh" on board as well as cp176. Both of them follow the Sox minor leagues. Saves me a bunch of time. I'm lazy as f*** that way!

 

I'm exactly the same. It's a treat when someone else does the legwork on the minor league guys LOL

[Station 13]

Wonder if Moncada can translate over to 3B. Shaw did it naturally and there is an opening at 1B (for Shaw) with the decline of Ramirez.

[sk7326]

Wonder if Moncada can translate over to 3B. Shaw did it naturally and there is an opening at 1B (for Shaw) with the decline of Ramirez.

 

Since he played SS in Cuba, I'd say yes. Indeed, he is so big that 3B makes more sense than 2B longer term.

[moonslav59]

It's a pretty substantial jump to AA (as we are seeing with Benintendi) so I'd prefer to just leave him at 2b until his bat adjusts. Even then, I'd probably just leave him at 2b for the rest of the season. If they want to move him off of 2b, the offseason is a great time to do it.

 

Last off season was the right time to do it.

 

We're never trading Pedey, so 2B is just about as blocked as any position on any team in MLB can possibly be.

 

We keep being forced to play people "out of position" due to lack of insight and forethought. We should prepare ourselves for a great prospect to rise quicker than we anticipate or some major injury or falling off a cliff by a regular occurs. Here are some recent instances of lack of forethought by Sox management on preparing players for positional chances (some worked out okay- others did not):

 

Swihart in LF: It was obvious he would need to play other positions with the Sox once vaz got healthy, especially if he hit like he was projected to do. We knew e had potential weaknesses at LF, 3B and 1B. he should have been given a few reps there in the minors over the last year or two. (Note: I said this 2 years ago.)

 

Betts in the OF: he should have been given OF reps long before he did. He ended up adjusting amazingly well, but what if he didn't? Everybody knew he'd never play 2B in Boston unless Pedey got hurt.

 

HanRam at 1B. They should have given him a 1Bman's mitt last summer, when we were out of it.

 

Bogaerts at 3B: he played 10 games at 3B in the minors, then was playing 3B in the playoffs for us! Inexcusable. (Note: this is not hindsight bitching on my part, I was calling for him to be at 3B that whole minor league seaons.)

 

Now, it's Moncada.

 

I'd also start playing Benintendi in LF at least 30-40% of the games, so he gets used to it.

 

[moonslav59]

Wonder if Moncada can translate over to 3B. Shaw did it naturally and there is an opening at 1B (for Shaw) with the decline of Ramirez.

 

I think Shaw actually started at 3B in college and was moved to 1B in the minors, but he still played a lot of 3B in the minors as well (22% of his games)

[moonslav59]

I could also see Moncada at 1B, if he struggles at 3B or LF.

[Hugh2]

A player should never have to learn a new position and a new level at the same time. Teams almost always let a player establish himself at one position first before moving them, a team will never move a guy like Moncada because of a guy like Pedey until they have too....right now they don't have too.

 

The Sox are also notorious (as are most teams) for waiting for a guy to reach AAA to switch positions. At other times it happens at the MLB level.

[moonslav59]

A player should never have to learn a new position and a new level at the same time. Teams almost always let a player establish himself at one position first before moving them, a team will never move a guy like Moncada because of a guy like Pedey until they have too....right now they don't have too.

 

The Sox are also notorious (as are most teams) for waiting for a guy to reach AAA to switch positions. At other times it happens at the MLB level.

 

 

Too many times in the Sox recent history, however, players get thrust into playing a position they barely have had any time to learn at a "new level at the same time" and that level is MLB not a minor league level.

 

That's my issue!

 

Look, I get the slow approach philosophy and the benefit of not making a player adjust to a new level offensively while also trying to learn a new position defensively, many teams do that or strive to do taht, but much too often, we've had to use very inexperienced young players at new positions at the MLB level.

 

It's obvious Moncada will not be playing 2B for Boston, unless Pedey gets hurt. Moncada may be needed as early as April 2017 at 3B, 1B or LF. Do you really want him to play winter ball to learn a new position or positions, then have just spring training before playing with the Sox? If Moncada ends up with us in September, I'm not sure I want to risk burning the young guy out playing winter ball, if we may need him for `150 games next year.

[Hugh2]

Too many times in the Sox recent history, however, players get thrust into playing a position they barely have had any time to learn at a "new level at the same time" and that level is MLB not a minor league level.

 

That's my issue!

 

Look, I get the slow approach philosophy and the benefit of not making a player adjust to a new level offensively while also trying to learn a new position defensively, many teams do that or strive to do taht, but much too often, we've had to use very inexperienced young players at new positions at the MLB level.

 

It's obvious Moncada will not be playing 2B for Boston, unless Pedey gets hurt. Moncada may be needed as early as April 2017 at 3B, 1B or LF. Do you really want him to play winter ball to learn a new position or positions, then have just spring training before playing with the Sox? If Moncada ends up with us in September, I'm not sure I want to risk burning the young guy out playing winter ball, if we may need him for `150 games next year.

 

I understand your concerns but that's not how player development necessarily works. I can see how it makes sense from our perspective as a fan as we try to imagine a star studded home grown team down the road but you let guys play their natural position and let them outplay it. It was the right thing to do to develop Swihart as a catcher, and perhaps the team has made a mistake (I'd say they did) in switching him too soon but they did so out of necessity. There are just as many times were a player easily makes the transition to another position too though however. And as I said before it's not optimal to put the burden on a player of learning a new position while also developing his bat.

 

Teams put players where they believe they profile best, not where they may fit the team better several years down the road. It's a similar argument in terms of drafting for need. You don't draft a catcher if you need a catcher when there is a much better pitcher at your pick...you can always trade one for the other down the road. Once a guy like Moncada has moved up the later and has a bat more developed it is much less detrimental to his development to move him to another position. Also, a ton could happen in a year and going ahead a few more years can be much more unpredictable. A player could severely decline or get injured or even become a trade chip.

 

Us as fans often look at player development from the top down, but in reality in should be much more from the bottom to the top. Not that it couldn't work out great to move a guy like Moncada now, but I think the Sox system of player development as they do it as good if not better than any other team (with position players at least)

Edited June 22, 2016 by A Red Sox fan named Hugh

[User Name]

Hugh is right. That's widely considered developmental best practice for a reason.

[Emp9]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/06/23/red-sox-minor-league-notebook-yoan-moncada-likely-will-be-exposed-to-new-position-but-not-right-now/

[Spudboy]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/06/23/red-sox-minor-league-notebook-yoan-moncada-likely-will-be-exposed-to-new-position-but-not-right-now/

 

Good article.

[moonslav59]

Hugh is right. That's widely considered developmental best practice for a reason.

 

I never tried to claim this wasn't the "widely considered developmental best practice" and I agree with the practice and reasons for the practice, but there are exceptions to any rule or guideline, and I do think teams realize when a player is coming close to be major league ready and begin to transition them to the position of need. Getting the exact timing right is not easy, and injury or sudden decline by vets can sometimes force a team's hand, as with Bogey playing 3B and Swihart now in LF, but to me, both of those cases were foreseeable and discussed often over the prior months and even over a year.

 

To me, I do not think asking a player to spend a few minutes a day over a few months learning a new position is going to disrupt there growth as a hitter or fielder at their natural position. It seemed like everybody knew there wasn't going to be enough PAs at the catcher position once Vazquez recovered from his injury, and this was discussed before Vaz got hurt as well. I do not think Vaz returned much quicker than anticipated, yet the Sox waited until he returned to begin giving Swihart lessens in LF. I cannot see the harm in giving Swihart some LF reps in SP'ing or over the winter prior to this season. Also, I'm not sure Swihart even fits the model, as he was in AAA in 2014, and spent half the season in MLB last year, so I think giving him reps in LF over the winter and spring wouldn't have even conflicted with standard acceptable practice.

 

The Bogey case was more complex. Some of us, and wrongly so I might add, did not see Bogey as being likely to develop into a plus defensive SS. We saw Iggy as our future SS and Bogey as our future 3Bman, so much of the discussion about giving him reps at 3B were based in that aspect of the conversation. There were several scouting or ranking services that stated Bogey would likely "grow out of" SS and be moved to 3B. Some of us believed that and also felt it would be a good idea for him to at least learn how to play 3B for two reasons:

1) He had a better chance at being a plus defender at 3B than SS due to his skillset and projeced size.

2) We had little faith in Middy and thought Bogey would be needed at 3B sooner rather than later.

Even Middy supporters should not have been shocked at his decline at 3B in 2013. Bogey ended up being rushed to learn 3B, and was in the bigs playing 3B after just 10 games at 3B in the minors. We were lucky he did well those few weeks, but I will add than many felt the move to 3B was what messed his bat up the following year. While I'm not sure anyone can prove that was the reason, certainly it can be viewed that way as evidence to avoid such moves until absolutely necessary.

 

My contention is that the Swihart move was obvious and absolutely necessary before Vaz's injury even happened. That was a long time ago. Now, once Vaz got hurt, certainly Swihart needed to focus all his energy on catching (and hitting to a lesser extent) as he was rushed to the bigs before his" normal" time. However, once the season ended, my position is that he should have been given some instruction on playing LF and maybe even 1B or 3B as well. (At the time, we were not sure about Travis Shae, Pablo and Hanram.)

 

The Betts move to OF looked effortless, but (IMO) that is more a tribute to Mookie's athletic skills and mindset than to Sox management's being proactive. I get that Mookie's rise was off-the-charts, and hard for anyone to project, so I give management some slack here, but I still think it was obvious he was never going to play 2B for the Sox. I can see keeping players at high skilled positions like SS and Catcher for as long as possible, especially if they are good there defensively, since it adds value to their stock, but I never saw that as being the case with Betts. He seemed to be better suited for CF or RF than 2B anyways, but that was just my opinion at the time. Anyways, it all worked out with him in the OF and Bogey at 3B in the fall of 2013. Swihart has looked pretty good in LF in the small sample size we've seen so far, but I still think these three should have been given a few more reps at their new position than they ended up getting. I'm not talking about major shifts in their development plans- just a few more reps than they got. (Swihart should have been given an OF'ers glove over a year ago.)

Edited June 23, 2016 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2016/06/23/red-sox-minor-league-notebook-yoan-moncada-likely-will-be-exposed-to-new-position-but-not-right-now/

 

Great read.

 

On Moncada, I do not think he's done very well at 2B defensively in the minors. Everyone speaks of his physical abilities and that he should end up being a good defender, if only because of his natural born abilities. I take that to mean, he's still basically learning 2B.

 

I volunteer teaching ESL at a nearby title 1 middle school. My students come from a bilingual Elementary school where they are taught to first (try to) master their first language, so acquiring a second language becomes easier and more meaningful. While some evidence exists showing full immersion into the English language is preferable, I think the bulk of studies show the bilingual method shows better results, especially for children who may not have had very good education as smaller children and have serious gaps in their primary language (such as reading and writing deficiencies). I get the philosophy of learning your first language (or position in baseball) first. trying to master it first, before moving on to something different. However, it might take Moncada 1-2 years to master 2B defensively, and what good does that do us?

 

I think Moncada is very very close to being MLB ready on offense. He might be better than Shaw, HanRam and Swihart right now on offense. We may need him as early as September of this year, especially if one of the 3 guys I just mentioned gets hurt or falls off a cliff (maybe sooner). I just don't see the harm in asking him to stay a little later after practice to take a few reps at 3B or 1B. I do not think that messes up a person's brain or confidence.

[moonslav59]

Besides a major injury happening, let's look at the possible offensive positions of need for the remainder of this year and next year:

 

DH: Papi's retirement is going to leave a gaping hole in our line-up- no ifs, ands or buts. Transitioning Moncada to DH is not a positional issue, so no worries here. I doubt Moncada becomes a better 3Bman than Shaw, a better LF'er than Young or a better 1Bman than HanRam over this summer, fall and winter, so he may end up right there- at DH or part-time DH anyways.

 

Now, it gets more complicated, assuming one of these guys struggles to the point of needing to be benched (or gets hurt), who might be the better replacement in August or September or maybe even mid July?

 

1B: If HanRam reverts to 2015 numbers, who plays 1B?

Shaw? Then who plays 3B?(see below) Nope

Papi? With his feet and our need for him to stay healthy and in our line-up? Nope

Holt? Nope

Sam Travis? Perhaps.

Moncada ???

 

3B: If Shaw struggles or gets hurt, who plays 3B?

Holt? Assuming he's over his concussion, notin pointed out that Holt at 3B was the reason we signed Pablo. Nope.

Marrero? Talk about an offensive black hole. Nope.

Hernandez? Probably my choice, but still a flawed choice. Perhaps

Trade for someone? Perhaps

Moncada???

 

LF: If the Swihart/Young platoon struggles, then who?

Holt? Not FT, nope.

Benintendi? Perhaps

Add Craig or Castillo (if he's on the team) to the 40 man roster? nope.

Moincada ???

 

We may be forced to add Benintendi or Moncada to the 25 man roster before their projected ETAs. Let's be prepared.

 

We may be surprised how their offensive input could put us over the top. Let's hope Moncada's defensive deficiency doesn't cancel out the plus on offense. Maybe we can do something about that sooner rather than later. That's my position.

 

 

[Hugh2]

Well, I personally wouldn't tinker with the Sox player development philosophy. I think they are doing an excellent job, you don't move guys for a reason as been stated by me, others, the Red Sox, scouts, and more. We can repackage the argument any way we'd like but player development just doesn't work like that.

[Jasonbay44]

Red Sox 2B prospect Yoan Moncada delivered three hits Wednesday in Double-A Portland's loss to Harrisburg.

It was only Moncada's second game in Double-A after getting called up earlier this week. He went 2-for-3 against Harrisburg right-hander Lucas Giolito, who is widely considered baseball's top pitching prospect.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/mlb/8005/yoan-moncada

[moonslav59]

Well, I personally wouldn't tinker with the Sox player development philosophy. I think they are doing an excellent job, you don't move guys for a reason as been stated by me, others, the Red Sox, scouts, and more. We can repackage the argument any way we'd like but player development just doesn't work like that.

 

So, you were okay with Bogey playing 3B in the World Series after just 10 games in the minors at 3B?

 

You were okay with Swihart playing LF this year after 11 games in AAA in LF?

 

You were okay with Betts sudden shift to OF?

 

All worked out, but don't you think we may have gotten a little lucky? That we could have prepared for these situations that to me, all looked probable (not in hindsight either)?

 

What if Bogey had made 4 errors in the playoffs and cost us a game or two?

 

The Betts move couldn't have cost us anything, because as it turned out, it would not have mattered in 2015.

 

Swihart has not cost us any games on defense in LF, so far.

 

All looks okay in hindsight, but I think we should have planned better.

[mvp 78]

@clearthebases Moncada 0-for-4 tonight after striking out for the second straight time, this time looking at an off-speed pitch in the 7th