Craig Kimbrel to Boston

[a700hitter]

This is a win now at any cost philosophy, which is fine if that's the way you want to go.

 

I do not agree with that line of thinking.

 

It would feel great if we won another WS in the short term, but that's not guaranteed. In the long term, we could end up with a long drought of bad teams because we are handcuffed by bad contracts and have a barren farm system.

 

It would be far wiser to make moves with both the short and long term goals in mind.

I think he will build consistent sustainable success, not one World Championship followed by years of last place.

Edited November 18, 2015 by a700hitter

[cp176]

I really think that it is a stretch to suggest that what has been done so far represents a win now at all cost philosophy. Maybe it will look like that in a while but not yet.

[Elktonnick]

I think to characterize one trade involving some prospects (none of whom were the clubs top prospects) for an all star closer is an almost hysterical over reaction.

[a700hitter]

I think to characterize one trade involving some prospects (none of whom were the clubs top prospects) for an all star closer is an almost hysterical over reaction.

It does conjure up images of people tearing out their hair in hysteria. LOL!!

[Hitch]

This is a win now at any cost philosophy, which is fine if that's the way you want to go.

 

That's more than a little OTT. The trade doesn't signify a move to it's 'win at all cost'. If so we'd be packing off Swilhart and the premier farm guys as well. There is no indication what-so-ever that is happening.

 

You can be disappointed with the trade without needing to use such hyperbolic language.

[a700hitter]

What is being lost in this whole discussion is just how good Kimbrel is. Is there a better closer? And he's young.

[SoxnCycles]

I think to characterize one trade involving some prospects (none of whom were the clubs top prospects) for an all star closer is an almost hysterical over reaction.

 

Wrong.

 

At MLB.com Prospect Watch, Manuel Margot and Javier Guerra were ranked No. 25 and No. 76 overall, and No. 3 and No. 6 in the Red Sox organization, while Carlos Asuaje and Logan Allen were ranked No. 23 and No. 25 on the Sox farm:

 

 

Unless you don't consider # 3 and #6 as "top".

[Palodios]

Meanwhile, Detroit trades for another elite closer, K-Rod, for what amounts to spare parts.

 

K-Rod had a better ERA, and WHIP last year in a more hitter friendly park. He's 6 years older, but he's also 6 million cheaper, and cost a prospect who may someday be a very solid utility guy on the Milwaukee bench.

[a700hitter]

Meanwhile, Detroit trades for another elite closer, K-Rod, for what amounts to spare parts.

 

K-Rod had a better ERA, and WHIP last year in a more hitter friendly park. He's 6 years older, but he's also 6 million cheaper, and cost a prospect who may someday be a very solid utility guy on the Milwaukee bench.

You are equating KRod with Kimbrel? There is a huge difference in quality. Huge.

[Palodios]

You are equating KRod with Kimbrel? There is a huge difference in quality. Huge.

 

Franciso Rodriguez is criminally underrated. 2.69 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, 10.75 K/9 over the course of the last 13 years. He's been an excellent closer with no injury issues.

 

He's clearly not better than Kimbrel, but KRod would have been a much better use of resources.

[a700hitter]

Franciso Rodriguez is criminally underrated. 2.69 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, 10.75 K/9 over the course of the last 13 years. He's been an excellent closer with no injury issues.

 

He's clearly not better than Kimbrel, but KRod would have been a much better use of resources.

Without looking at stats, his velocity is around 85-86 and his go to pitch is his curveball. My recollection is that his WHIP is pretty high too. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think I am, especially about the curveball being his go to pitch. We would not want him closing for us. I wouldn't mind him as a 7th inning guy, but not as a closer. He is not in Kimbrel's league at this point in time. Not even close.

[Palodios]

He is not in Kimbrel's league at this point in time. Not even close.

 

And yet KRod's ERA, WHIP, K/BB and SV% were all better last year, despite significant park factors favoring Kimbrel.

 

Kimbrel is clearly clearly the better pitcher. But I'd rather have the extra 6 million and elite prospects as resources available for our next ace.

[Dojji]

And Palodios, you're not technically wrong, but I would like to remind you of a few things. especially Andrew Bailey and Joel Hanrahan. "Good enough but cheaper" mentality brought those men to Boston. Not surprising that the franchise is cool on the concept.

[SoxnCycles]

And Palodios, you're not technically wrong, but I would like to remind you of a few things. especially Andrew Bailey and Joel Hanrahan. "Good enough but cheaper" mentality brought those men to Boston. Not surprising that the franchise is cool on the concept.

 

Good to know Kimbrel is totally immune to injury.

[sk7326]

Imagine what the outcry would have been for a prospect swap for Gray or Sale...

 

Exactly zero. I am all for that - I am all for dumping all these guys on cheapo Miami's doorstep and telling them "come on, you're not going to pay Jose Fernandez, let's be real". Even add Moncada.

 

It's doing it for a closer who could improve the bullpen solidly if he is what he was 2-3 seasons ago, but could improve it less if he was the 2015 version.

[Palodios]

And Palodios, you're not technically wrong, but I would like to remind you of a few things. especially Andrew Bailey and Joel Hanrahan. "Good enough but cheaper" mentality brought those men to Boston. Not surprising that the franchise is cool on the concept.

 

Andrew Bailey had known health issues. Joel Hanrahan had a 3.50 ERA before Boston. KRod has been one of the most consistent closers in baseball over the last decade.

[sk7326]

And Palodios, you're not technically wrong, but I would like to remind you of a few things. especially Andrew Bailey and Joel Hanrahan. "Good enough but cheaper" mentality brought those men to Boston. Not surprising that the franchise is cool on the concept.

 

No, they were pricey buys - so was Melancon (we gave the Astros a starting caliber SS! An injury plagued one but still). All of the guys were premium closers and the franchise management got all googly eyed over saves. It's that simple.

 

The team's mistakes have not been "they went cheap on the bullpen". That is silly - bullpen performance is wildly volatile, and spending a ton on it is risky. It's that they did not churn - and internally they have dithered too much with their own pitchers instead of making early decisive calls on who can't start. They did that one time - with Papelbon - and it worked out. But trying to put Bard in the rotation, trying to squint hard and see starting in Allen Webster or Brandon Workman or Rubby De La Rosa. They have incorrectly hoped and prayed these guys developed a 3rd pitch instead of just converting them and letting them fly. Now this would not have worked at a 100% rate - that's what churn is for. But that's really all the Royals have done. Look at guys with at least one or two serious pitches and just said "close enough".

[User Name]

The key issue here is whether the FO's assessment of the players sent to SD is indeed correct. I've always been against paying big for "proven" closers, but if Kimbrel proves that his 2015 (or the beginning of it) was indeed a blip in the radar, and he's a generational talent as a closer, then I've got no complaints. And KRod? Nope, don't see it.

[Palodios]

Also, Hanrahan was just a throw-in in the Brock Holt trade:cool:

[Kimmi]

I really think that it is a stretch to suggest that what has been done so far represents a win now at all cost philosophy. Maybe it will look like that in a while but not yet.

 

I am not suggesting that what has been done so far represents a win now at all cost philosophy. In fact, I have posted more than once, that I am OK with the Kimbrel trade right now because our team did get better and our farm system is still in great shape.

 

My comment about the win now at any cost mentality was in reference to this quote:

 

On Friday morning, the Red Sox had a bad bullpen, a great farm system and the resources needed to acquire a front-line starter. On Friday night, the Red Sox had a better bullpen, a great farm system and the resources needed to acquire a front-line starter.

 

I agreed with this quote that we still have the resources to acquire a front line starter, but at what cost will that come to the team? If the feeling is that you do whatever it costs to land a top starter, then that is the philosophy that I'm talking about.

[Kimmi]

That's more than a little OTT. The trade doesn't signify a move to it's 'win at all cost'. If so we'd be packing off Swilhart and the premier farm guys as well. There is no indication what-so-ever that is happening.

 

You can be disappointed with the trade without needing to use such hyperbolic language.

 

I wasn't talking about the one trade.

[Kimmi]

What is being lost in this whole discussion is just how good Kimbrel is. Is there a better closer? And he's young.

 

No, that has not been lost at all.

 

We know he's very good, and I think everyone is happy to have him on the team.

[Hitch]

I wasn't talking about the one trade.

 

Sorry I was posting on my phone and somehow completely missed the previous post. My bad!

[Kimmi]

Sorry I was posting on my phone and somehow completely missed the previous post. My bad!

 

No worries. I am really curious to see what happens on the pitching front. I am almost positive I'm not going to like the cost, no matter who we get. But mostly, I don't want Dombrowski to strip the farm.

[a700hitter]

No worries. I am really curious to see what happens on the pitching front. I am almost positive I'm not going to like the cost, no matter who we get. But mostly, I don't want Dombrowski to strip the farm.

You have a very negative outlook. Look at it this way, we could keep the whole farm and do nothing and finish last for years to come, because our organizational pitching is horse poop. Edited November 19, 2015 by a700hitter

[Palodios]

Come on Dumbo, just sign us an ace already and give us something new to talk about.

[mvp 78]

Come on Dumbo, just sign us an ace already and give us something new to talk about.

 

Henry Owens has the ability to sign players now?

[Bellhorn04]

It's a good thing for Dombrowski that he doesn't have big ears.

[cp176]

You have a very negative outlook. Look at it this way, we could keep the whole farm and do nothing and finish last for years to come, because our organizational pitching is horse poop.

 

Through the process of elimination we now have 3 pitching prospects listed in our top ten. What does it really mean? I only know what I have read like most of the rest of us about Espinoza and Kopech. We saw a little sample of Brian Johnson last year. How far away from playing in the majors are any or all of these 3? If you could trade all three of them for young ace, would you do it? Would that constitute gutting the farm? I sure and hell don't know. What I do know is that I like the Kimbrel trade. We traded some commodities that may or may not become established professionals. We got an established pitcher - closer- call him what you like in return. He could get injured of course but he comes with an established reputation. I like these types of trades as opposed to the ones where we sign someone and then hope like hell that they will become better than they have ever been. Everybody here seems to like Kimbrel but a few people think we gave too much for him. Based on everything that I have read about Margot and Guerra in particular, I really don't mind this trade very much at all. My long term isn't as long as some others. 3 years works for me. In all honesty, I think that the few who don't like the trade see or saw Margot and Guerra as being bigger trade chips than I did for sure.

[a700hitter]

Through the process of elimination we now have 3 pitching prospects listed in our top ten. What does it really mean? I only know what I have read like most of the rest of us about Espinoza and Kopech. We saw a little sample of Brian Johnson last year. How far away from playing in the majors are any or all of these 3? If you could trade all three of them for young ace, would you do it? Would that constitute gutting the farm? I sure and hell don't know. What I do know is that I like the Kimbrel trade. We traded some commodities that may or may not become established professionals. We got an established pitcher - closer- call him what you like in return. He could get injured of course but he comes with an established reputation. I like these types of trades as opposed to the ones where we sign someone and then hope like hell that they will become better than they have ever been. Everybody here seems to like Kimbrel but a few people think we gave too much for him. Based on everything that I have read about Margot and Guerra in particular, I really don't mind this trade very much at all. My long term isn't as long as some others. 3 years works for me. In all honesty, I think that the few who don't like the trade see or saw Margot and Guerra as being bigger trade chips than I did for sure.

Apparently some people think we got completely ripped off. I don't think this is Anderson for Bagwell or Slocumb for Varitek and Lowe. Kimbrel is an All Star.