Craig Kimbrel to Boston

[cp176]

Swihart possibly....JBJ no. Putting JBJ at the middle of a deal does not get you to those guys, Grey, Sales etc. We probably can't trade Swihart at this point even if we wanted to do that. Plus this is the trade season...now...followed by the FA season. Trades will slow later on as the FA part of the off season heats up....especially with so many FA bodies out there for teams to choose from. They will for the most part want to get trades behind them and concentrate on the FA's. In our case, we have a pretty darned low draft pick on the line for us. So I don't see all those FA's as guys DD will likely be interested in.

 

So what would we be saying if DD got nothing done during the trade heavy part of the off season. We would be going wild that's what. Never happy...we have already started with whatever DD does its wrong.....unbelievable. He makes a move...its wrong..He does not make a move.... its wrong. Well there is no doubt in my mind that DD could not afford to stand pat and hope something fell his way later this off season. You actually want him to wait around and hope "things change". Holy Cow!!!

 

In order for this team to look truly competitive for 2016, a lot still needs to be done. DD has started the process. I'm sure that he will be able to live with both the positive and the negative criticism that he gets from the dealing. He needs to add quite a bit more pitching. More than than just one top quality arm. I also share your feelings about the hitting of our corner outfielders. Sandoval, Ramirez? I don't know- maybe those issues just have to play themselves out. Free agency or trade - I don't care really which direction he goes. I don't want us to get screwed and I don't think that we will. He has been involved in to many huge deals to let that happen. He needs to make changes and not everyone will like what he does. As a side note- people have been screaming for a long time that our pitching prospects are poor, now 3 of our top ten prospects are pitchers.

[Kimmi]

Need to dump Panda and/or Hanley on someone too. I'd prefer 2 SP and a BP, but 1 and 1 would be ok, I guess. As long as they actually get a #1 this time around.

 

I agree that getting rid of either Panda or Hanley would be ideal, but I don't think it's a necessity. With Ortiz announcing his retirement, he will not need to reach a certain number of at bats. He and Hanley (and the rest of the team) would benefit from Hanley DHing once or maybe even twice a week. A defensive substitution can be made for Hanley late in games. And if Hanley really stinks that bad at 1B, then we have Shaw.

 

I agree on the pitching front. I would prefer a #1 and a #2/3, but I'd be okay with a true #1.

[Kimmi]

Swihart possibly....JBJ no. Putting JBJ at the middle of a deal does not get you to those guys, Grey, Sales etc. We probably can't trade Swihart at this point even if we wanted to do that. Plus this is the trade season...now...followed by the FA season. Trades will slow later on as the FA part of the off season heats up....especially with so many FA bodies out there for teams to choose from. They will for the most part want to get trades behind them and concentrate on the FA's. In our case, we have a pretty darned low draft pick on the line for us. So I don't see all those FA's as guys DD will likely be interested in.

 

You might be right about JBJ not being the centerpiece of a deal, but I don't think it's a given. There is a premium on defense right now. Also, I know they project differently and that the team would be selling high on JBJ (that's kind of the point, isn't it?), but JBJ was worth 2.4 WAR in 74 games. Mookie was worth 4.8 WAR in 145 games. Over a full season, JBJ would have been worth roughly the same as Mookie.

 

Yes, I know that JBJ is not Mookie. But I do think that he currently has more trade value than some people give him credit for.

[Kimmi]

So what would we be saying if DD got nothing done during the trade heavy part of the off season. We would be going wild that's what. Never happy...we have already started with whatever DD does its wrong.....unbelievable. He makes a move...its wrong..He does not make a move.... its wrong. Well there is no doubt in my mind that DD could not afford to stand pat and hope something fell his way later this off season. You actually want him to wait around and hope "things change". Holy Cow!!!

 

If Dombrowski was unable to get anything done during the trade heavy part of the season, then all of the free agent options that are available now would still be availalbe. All I'm saying is that I think he narrowed some of his options by trading for Kimbrel so early and giving up the package that he did.

 

You obviously don't know me well at all. I am almost always in agreement with what the FO does, and have often been called a homer and a pollyanna because of my defense of the FO moves. To imply that I am never happy is absurd.

 

Dombrowski has pretty much made two moves. Pick up Buchholz' option, which I am in full agreement with and very happy about, and trade for Kimbrel, in which I love the return, just didn't like the price because of the limitations it might put on the rest of our offseason, not because of losing those prospects. I have even stated that if the rest of the offseason works out well as far as filling our holes without sacrificing our long term outlook, then I will be good with the Kimbrel trade. So stop with the never happy nonsense.

[Spudboy]

Spid, why do you hate Workman?

 

I don't hate Workman at all. I did not list him because I assumed that he would still be rehabbing at the beginning of the season.

 

I like his "power arm" and hope for the best. He was pretty good in 2013.

[Orange Juiced]

In order for this team to look truly competitive for 2016, a lot still needs to be done. DD has started the process. I'm sure that he will be able to live with both the positive and the negative criticism that he gets from the dealing. He needs to add quite a bit more pitching. More than than just one top quality arm. I also share your feelings about the hitting of our corner outfielders. Sandoval, Ramirez? I don't know- maybe those issues just have to play themselves out. Free agency or trade - I don't care really which direction he goes. I don't want us to get screwed and I don't think that we will. He has been involved in to many huge deals to let that happen. He needs to make changes and not everyone will like what he does. As a side note- people have been screaming for a long time that our pitching prospects are poor, now 3 of our top ten prospects are pitchers.

 

I don't agree with the premise. This team was one of the best teams in baseball the last two months of the year. Adding Kimbrel and getting Koji back alone will be huge improvements for the bullpen. The offense really improved over the second half of the year and there's no reason to think it won't be one of the best in baseball in 2016.

 

The one big piece still needed is a stud at the top of the rotation. They get Price, say, and go to war with this team, they'll be very tough:

 

SP - Price, Miley, Rodriguez, Buchholz, Porcello

RP - Wright, Kelly, Ross, Barnes, Tazawa, Koji, Kimbrel

 

C - Swihart

1b - Hanley

2b - Pedroia

3b - Panda

SS - Bogaerts

LF - Castillo

CF - Betts

RF - JBJ

DH - Ortiz

Bench - Hanigan, Holt, Shaw, RH OF bat

 

That team has power, speed, OBP ability, power arms in the bullpen, a stud at the top of the rotation, pitching depth, and high level defense.

 

It's absolutely good enough to compete for a division title.

[Dojji]

I suspect the team actually sees Christian Vazquez as their incumbent starter. Spring can change everything of course but at the moment I think it's actually Swihart that would go down to Pawtucket to work on things when the team breaks camp.

 

I also don't think Eddie breaks camp with the team.

 

As for that last outfield slot -- has Rajai Davis been taken yet? He's kind of the ideal guy for that assignment to back up multiple youngsters.

[cp176]

I don't agree with the premise. This team was one of the best teams in baseball the last two months of the year. Adding Kimbrel and getting Koji back alone will be huge improvements for the bullpen. The offense really improved over the second half of the year and there's no reason to think it won't be one of the best in baseball in 2016.

 

The one big piece still needed is a stud at the top of the rotation. They get Price, say, and go to war with this team, they'll be very tough:

 

SP - Price, Miley, Rodriguez, Buchholz, Porcello

RP - Wright, Kelly, Ross, Barnes, Tazawa, Koji, Kimbrel

 

C - Swihart

1b - Hanley

2b - Pedroia

3b - Panda

SS - Bogaerts

LF - Castillo

CF - Betts

RF - JBJ

DH - Ortiz

Bench - Hanigan, Holt, Shaw, RH OF bat

 

That team has power, speed, OBP ability, power arms in the bullpen, a stud at the top of the rotation, pitching depth, and high level defense.

 

It's absolutely good enough to compete for a division title.

 

 

I would bet on them being a game or two over .500 for sure. Outside of Kimbrel, I think there still are a ton of questions that will have to be dealt with with respect to the bullpen. i hope that Tarawa and Koji come back and are affective. I would bet nothing on the others. If Price is the only addition you see them making to our rotation, I really don't share your enthusiasm. I enjoyed watching the young guys play shortly after the season ended for us (after the All-Star break). I hope they all step up and play well when the games have some meaning. All of that sounds a little negative.

[cp176]

I suspect the team actually sees Christian Vazquez as their incumbent starter. Spring can change everything of course but at the moment I think it's actually Swihart that would go down to Pawtucket to work on things when the team breaks camp.

 

I also don't think Eddie breaks camp with the team.

 

As for that last outfield slot -- has Rajai Davis been taken yet? He's kind of the ideal guy for that assignment to back up multiple youngsters.

 

 

Where do you think E-Rod will be? Who will they trade him to? Unless they add at a minimum of two top of the rotation guys, they won't give even a passing thought to sending him back to the minors. Other than just to create conversation, I don't know why anyone would even suggest this one. Conversation is good.

[Kimmi]

Yup.

 

Nothing about the Sox is all set.

 

Who the hell mans the pen in 2016?????

 

I count three, possibly four relievers that will be there.

 

Koji, Taz, Kimbrel, and possibly Ross. Will Layne be there? Will Wright be healthy?

 

I don't see how acquiring "a#1" and one reliever makes this team good to go.

 

In terms of what I consider key moves, a # 1 starter and one more strong BP arm are our big needs. Obviously, there are other things that need to be done, like obtaining a 4th OF and obtaining some depth pieces for the pen. There may or may not be other big changes, such as moving Hanley or Pablo, which I think would be a good idea.

 

However, if the FO gets us a #1 starter and one more strong reliever and makes no other big moves, I am feeling good about this team for next year. I have stated several times that I don't want Hanley at first base. But if he stays on the team and stinks as bad as some of us are fearing, Shaw should be able to fill in nicely.

 

I have felt all along that the team is only a few key moves away from contention. Kimbrel was a key move. Two more key moves to go.

[Kimmi]

I don't agree with the premise. This team was one of the best teams in baseball the last two months of the year. Adding Kimbrel and getting Koji back alone will be huge improvements for the bullpen. The offense really improved over the second half of the year and there's no reason to think it won't be one of the best in baseball in 2016.

 

The one big piece still needed is a stud at the top of the rotation. They get Price, say, and go to war with this team, they'll be very tough:

 

SP - Price, Miley, Rodriguez, Buchholz, Porcello

RP - Wright, Kelly, Ross, Barnes, Tazawa, Koji, Kimbrel

 

C - Swihart

1b - Hanley

2b - Pedroia

3b - Panda

SS - Bogaerts

LF - Castillo

CF - Betts

RF - JBJ

DH - Ortiz

Bench - Hanigan, Holt, Shaw, RH OF bat

 

That team has power, speed, OBP ability, power arms in the bullpen, a stud at the top of the rotation, pitching depth, and high level defense.

 

It's absolutely good enough to compete for a division title.

 

Spot on post OJ. I have nothing to add except to say that I have all the confidence in the world that Dombrowski will acquire a #1 starter for this team. I wll be shocked if he doesn't.

[Kimmi]

I suspect the team actually sees Christian Vazquez as their incumbent starter. Spring can change everything of course but at the moment I think it's actually Swihart that would go down to Pawtucket to work on things when the team breaks camp.

 

I also don't think Eddie breaks camp with the team.

 

As for that last outfield slot -- has Rajai Davis been taken yet? He's kind of the ideal guy for that assignment to back up multiple youngsters.

 

If Vazquez is ready, he'd be my choice of starters.

 

As far as the 4th OF goes, I'd love to have De Aza back.

[Dojji]

I think they give Joe Kelly until mid May to see if he's got what it takes and then go to Eddie. Having the luxury of sending him to Pawtucket means they'll probably try to make use of it. Not saying it's right, just saying that we see teams make that kind of decision all the time.

[cp176]

I think they give Joe Kelly until mid May to see if he's got what it takes and then go to Eddie. Having the luxury of sending him to Pawtucket means they'll probably try to make use of it. Not saying it's right, just saying that we see teams make that kind of decision all the time.

 

I think that we can agree that they could do it if they wanted to. It would seem like a very unusual and unnecessary move for them to make. He was the best they had over the second half of the season. I guess that I would tend to think that sending him back could possibly hurt him a great deal more than it would be worth.

[Spudboy]

If Vazquez is ready, he'd be my choice of starters.

 

As far as the 4th OF goes, I'd love to have De Aza back.

 

I agree on both counts. I said it last summer, they moved De Aza for nothing of value. In my view, they should just have kept him, even after our young outfield came together. Maybe the luxury of having Holt available changed things. I don't know except to say De Aza was pretty good for a 4th outfielder.

[Spudboy]

I think they give Joe Kelly until mid May to see if he's got what it takes and then go to Eddie. Having the luxury of sending him to Pawtucket means they'll probably try to make use of it. Not saying it's right, just saying that we see teams make that kind of decision all the time.

 

I just don't see the Sox demoting and retarding the development of their best pitcher. Seems dumb and unnecessary to me.

[cp176]

I agree on both counts. I said it last summer, they moved De Aza for nothing of value. In my view, they should just have kept him, even after our young outfield came together. Maybe the luxury of having Holt available changed things. I don't know except to say De Aza was pretty good for a 4th outfielder.

 

If they are really looking for a 4th outfielder, he would seem to be a real good one. Makes me wonder if they really aren't all that confident in the fact that JBJ and Castillo will get it done at the plate. Great fielding for sure but you still have to hit. Some of the names being thrown around by our local writers don't strike me as being 4th outfielders.

[cp176]

I just don't see the Sox demoting and retarding the development of their best pitcher. Seems dumb and unnecessary to me.

 

I agree and I would bet on the fact that there is virtually no chance that it will happen.

[a700hitter]

I just don't see the Sox demoting and retarding the development of their best pitcher. Seems dumb and unnecessary to me.

 

It wouldn't make sense to me either.

[cp176]

It wouldn't make sense to me either.

 

Common sense - there is still a place in the world for it.

[a700hitter]

The asking price for Chapman was reportedly higher than what we paid for Kimbrel. This is per Cafardo:

The Reds and Red Sox discussed a trade for Aroldis Chapman, but Cincinnati wanted more from Boston than the Sox eventually sent to the Padres to land Craig Kimbrel. That would represent a stunningly high asking price for a closer who is only under contract through the 2016 season. Kimbrel, by contrast, is owed $25MM through the 2017 season and Boston has a $13MM club option on his services for 2018.

[mvp 78]

The asking price for Chapman was reportedly higher than what we paid for Kimbrel. This is per Cafardo:

 

But but but Kimbrel was an OVERPAY!?!?!?!

[Kimmi]

I think they give Joe Kelly until mid May to see if he's got what it takes and then go to Eddie. Having the luxury of sending him to Pawtucket means they'll probably try to make use of it. Not saying it's right, just saying that we see teams make that kind of decision all the time.

 

I've said many times that starting Rodriguez at AAA wouldn't be a bad idea because it allows for much better depth and flexibility. It may not be right, and based on everything I've read, it's not going to happen, but it's really not as bad or as uncommon move as some think it is.

 

The point made that starting him in AAA might hurt him more than it helps the team is a valid one. But the old cliche that you can never have enough pitching is very true. The best way to have quality depth in case of injury/underperformance is to have someone like Rodriguez ready to go in AAA.

[Kimmi]

But but but Kimbrel was an OVERPAY!?!?!?!

 

That's probably the reason why Chapman has not been traded yet. Just because the Reds' price is even more steep than what we paid for Kimbrel, that doesn't make Kimbrel's price less of an overpay.

 

That said, we will see how the market plays out for the rest of the closer type relievers. If guys like Chapman or Miller are traded for returns comparable to Kimbrel's trade, then perhaps Dombrowksi judged the market correctly.

 

That said, we will also need to see how the market plays out for trades on young pitchers. If, for example, Gray is traded for a package that we could have easily swung using some of the prospects traded for Kimbrel, then perhaps Dombrowski would have been better off being more patient.

[Kimmi]

Common sense - there is still a place in the world for it.

 

There is plenty of sound rationale behind the idea of starting Rodriguez in AAA. There is also plenty of sound rationale against it. Do I think the Rodriguez deserves to be in the starting rotation when the team breaks camp? Absolutely, without a doubt. Do I see the benefits of having him start in AAA? Absolutely.

 

The idea that Rodriguez starts in AAA is not one that is lacking in common sense.

[mvp 78]

What's the benefit of him pitching against weaker hitters in AAA? I can't think of one.

[a700hitter]

I've said many times that starting Rodriguez at AAA wouldn't be a bad idea because it allows for much better depth and flexibility. It may not be right, and based on everything I've read, it's not going to happen, but it's really not as bad or as uncommon move as some think it is.

 

The point made that starting him in AAA might hurt him more than it helps the team is a valid one. But the old cliche that you can never have enough pitching is very true. The best way to have quality depth in case of injury/underperformance is to have someone like Rodriguez ready to go in AAA.

The notion of creating depth by putting ER in AAA is fallacious because it comes at the high price of weakening the major league rotation. The depth should come from Kelly starting the season in the bullpen. That will strengthen the pen, and he will be ready to step into the rotation if there is an injury or under performance.

[a700hitter]

That's probably the reason why Chapman has not been traded yet. Just because the Reds' price is even more steep than what we paid for Kimbrel, that doesn't make Kimbrel's price less of an overpay.

 

That said, we will see how the market plays out for the rest of the closer type relievers. If guys like Chapman or Miller are traded for returns comparable to Kimbrel's trade, then perhaps Dombrowksi judged the market correctly.

 

That said, we will also need to see how the market plays out for trades on young pitchers. If, for example, Gray is traded for a package that we could have easily swung using some of the prospects traded for Kimbrel, then perhaps Dombrowski would have been better off being more patient.

And Ben was so patient last year that one starting pitcher after another kept coming off the board to the point that none were left. His patience did not result in the market price coming down. The opposite happened. The price went up. A GM is not going to find a starting pitching bargain at the end of the off season. Supply and demand dictates that the price of good starting pitching goes up as less are available.

[User Name]

The only way for Rodriguez to start the season at AAA is if there are five superior pitchers in both results and ability to eat innings. Considering that, right now, the Sox have exactly zero of those pitchers, I ver much doubt he goes to the Minors unless DD completely rebuilds the rotation.

[cp176]

There is plenty of sound rationale behind the idea of starting Rodriguez in AAA. There is also plenty of sound rationale against it. Do I think the Rodriguez deserves to be in the starting rotation when the team breaks camp? Absolutely, without a doubt. Do I see the benefits of having him start in AAA? Absolutely.

 

The idea that Rodriguez starts in AAA is not one that is lacking in common sense.

 

 

Each of these cases has to be looked in a very individual way. If Rodriguez played a role on an already strong staff, of course the rationale would make sense. He doesn't. He was arguably the best we had last year. In his particular case, sending him down would show a lack of any kind of sense. Some might even consider it stupidity. Of course a lot could change between now and the spring.