Red Sox Offense – Bold Moves

[cp176]

I was just commenting on the Three Stooges. I did like All of then other than Curly Joe.

 

I was not looking to become mired in this fight. Although now I see posting my preference did just that.

 

I get it Spud - knuc,knuc,knuc. I like how you see things. Probably because we got a little of that old school in us.

[Spudboy]

Not to hijack the thread but when I graduated from high school my class voted to have Moe Howard as the commencement speaker.

 

We ended up with Senator Brooke instead.

 

Bummer.

[mvp 78]

TV38 New Years Eve Stooges Marathon FTW

[curiousd]

Back to the Panda.....In a post in another thread, SBF said: "Sometimes when a heavy player loses a lot of weight he does look better but he may have lost a lot of strength. Not all of those 40 pounds are pure blubber. There is some muscle and lean body tissue there. I don't like Panda being so heavy but it seems to work for him, and didn't he lose a bunch of weight a couple of years ago and go off to a real slow start for the Giants before he put some of the weight back on?"

 

My concern is that the weight is worsening Panda's fielding. Likely another big player whose days in the left side of the infield are limited. Maybe next year try him at first base and use Napoli - who has been a hitting disaster - as an expensive bench player? Use Holt at third.

 

Weird...after last year everyone ( including me ) was for a long time harping on the need for an ace pitcher. It is quite possible that this problem will have been solved by Rodriquez, who now for three starts has been amazing. And Buch has been on the whole pretty good. But we have a clean up hitter - Napoli - hitting maybe 220?

 

Hitting seems to be the main problem. Who would have thunk it?

[a700hitter]

It's the fans fault-- packing Fenway every night with fans that understand the game puts tremendous pressure on the players, not to mention the anguish it causes for management and the owners. All of those entitled masses yearning to see decent baseball while lining the pockets of the owners and players with riches. Repent!

[User Name]

Back to the Panda.....In a post in another thread, SBF said: "Sometimes when a heavy player loses a lot of weight he does look better but he may have lost a lot of strength. Not all of those 40 pounds are pure blubber. There is some muscle and lean body tissue there. I don't like Panda being so heavy but it seems to work for him, and didn't he lose a bunch of weight a couple of years ago and go off to a real slow start for the Giants before he put some of the weight back on?"

 

My concern is that the weight is worsening Panda's fielding. Likely another big player whose days in the left side of the infield are limited. Maybe next year try him at first base and use Napoli - who has been a hitting disaster - as an expensive bench player? Use Holt at third.

 

Weird...after last year everyone ( including me ) was for a long time harping on the need for an ace pitcher. It is quite possible that this problem will have been solved by Rodriquez, who now for three starts has been amazing. And Buch has been on the whole pretty good. But we have a clean up hitter - Napoli - hitting maybe 220?

 

Hitting seems to be the main problem. Who would have thunk it?

 

That's what I say. A team built to mash that can't hit its way out of a paper bag. Oh, the irony.

[Behindenemylines]

Brought in as offensive upgrades they both have struggled at times (Panda and H-Ram). I think what gets me the most, is yes both have under performed with the bat, but the poor D at 3B and LF kills me. Between the two of them how many unearned runs are they responsible for?

[Northern Star]

Brought in as offensive upgrades they both have struggled at times (Panda and H-Ram). I think what gets me the most, is yes both have under performed with the bat, but the poor D at 3B and LF kills me. Between the two of them how many unearned runs are they responsible for?

 

Well Panda's fielding is responsible for 9 more runs than league average, for starters.

[Northern Star]

Ben saw Panda and Hanley as shiny new toys. That's a Yankees type of mistake, bro.

[User Name]

Ben saw Panda and Hanley as shiny new toys. That's a Yankees type of mistake, bro.

 

Hanley playing 3B would have been fine. Panda's the problem, and that just reeks of Lucchino.

[curiousd]

Hanley playing 3B would have been fine. Panda's the problem, and that just reeks of Lucchino.

 

1. Hey, I am curious.....What does Lucchino do, anyway? J.H. forks over the dough, Ben tries to G.M., but what does Lucchino do?

2. I still think they should put the Panda on a diet to lose some weight....someone pointed out that at SF he once lost considerable weight and had a bad hitting year, but he now looks like an inebriated clown when he tries to dive for ground balls...has no agility at all. I am sure he was a much better third baseman than this at San Francisco. Why the Hell can't Ferrell or some one make him work off some of the lard? Are they afraid of the guy?

[curiousd]

Here are year, WAR, salary stats for Panda

year WAR $$$

2009 SF 4.3 401,000

2010 SF 1.5 465000

2011 SF 6.1 3,200,000

2012 SF 2.1 3,200,000

2013 SF 2.3 5,700,000

2014 SF 3.4 8,250,000

2015 RS -0.4 17,600,000

[Kimmi]

Here are year, WAR, salary stats for Panda

year WAR $$$

2009 SF 4.3 401,000

2010 SF 1.5 465000

2011 SF 6.1 3,200,000

2012 SF 2.1 3,200,000

2013 SF 2.3 5,700,000

2014 SF 3.4 8,250,000

2015 RS -0.4 17,600,000

 

This is the point I was trying to make in the other thread. Based on his previous season's WAR values, there was no reason to think that he would be playing as badly as he is this season. Anyone who says they knew he would be this bad is FOS.

 

Also, in terms of salary comparisons, you can't really compare his first 6 years of salary with his FA salary. Two completely different animals.

[Spudboy]

WAR or no WAR the guys is an average type 3rd baseman. I can see paying him what he was getting in SF and maybe $10.-$12 mil. but the Sox decided to spend more money than they had to to get a decent 3rd baseman.

 

He has not put up good numbers at all. The last six games are decent but where have all his XBH gone and why does he make so many errors and blunders?

 

The Sox f***ed up. Plain and simple.

[a700hitter]

WAR or no WAR the guys is an average type 3rd baseman. I can see paying him what he was getting in SF and maybe $10.-$12 mil. but the Sox decided to spend more money than they had to to get a decent 3rd baseman.

 

He has not put up good numbers at all. The last six games are decent but where have all his XBH gone and why does he make so many errors and blunders?

 

The Sox f***ed up. Plain and simple.

 

And they paid Hanley who is a DH in waiting much more than they ever paid Big Papi (the best DH in history). Hanley's contract would have been a good contract if he still played SS -- a premium position. Clearly, that was not the case as he can't catch a cold. It seems to me that Ben and the Red Sox were bidding against themselves on Panda and Hanley. These were poor acquisitions from a team building perspective and to add insult to injury, they were overpays.

 

My prediction is that neither will be a full time player with the RedSox by the time these contracts finish.

 

Our last 2 gms have been like a couple of rubes when it comes to negotiating contracts. When I was growing up in Brooklyn, the old women shopping for groceries were shrewder negotiaters than our gms. They would have eaten Theo's and Ben' s lunch. Lol!

Edited June 14, 2015 by a700hitter

[iortiz]

I'm not sure if I trade Hanley but I would trade the other busts that Ben signed/traded, in order to clean the house; Panda, Miley, Porcello, Kelly, Castillo... Problem is that they have zero value these days.

[Bellhorn04]

And they paid Hanley who is a DH in waiting much more than they ever paid Big Papi (the best DH in history). Hanley's contract would have been a good contract if he still played SS -- a premium position. Clearly, that was not the case as he can't catch a cold. It seems to me that Ben and the Red Sox were bidding against themselves on Panda and Hanley. These were poor acquisitions from a team building perspective and to add insult to injury, they were overpays.

 

My prediction is that neither will be a full time player with the RedSox by the time these contracts finish.

 

Our last 2 gms have been like a couple of rubes when it comes to negotiating contracts. When I was growing up in Brooklyn, the old women shopping for groceries were shrewder negotiaters than our gms. They would have eaten Theo's and Ben' s lunch. Lol!

 

Theo negotiated some very good contracts IMO, not all of them of course, but quite a few.

[iortiz]

Theo negotiated some very good contracts IMO, not all of them of course, but quite a few.

 

Wonder which contracts worked well throughout all their time contracted?

[Bellhorn04]

Wonder which contracts worked well throughout all their time contracted?

 

Well, just look at our record from 2003 to 2011 for starters. Those were the good old days, man.

[a700hitter]

Theo negotiated some very good contracts IMO, not all of them of course, but quite a few.

Not many at all. The players may have performed, but he was not a good negotiator of contracts, and he had some shopping bad ones. If you buy a Mercedes and it works like a Mercedes is supposed to work, but you have paid 50% more for it than other buyers, you are a bad negotiator. It doesn't make you a good negotiator because you own a Mercedes. Across the board our GMs have overpaid, both for the Mercedes and they have often paid Mercedes prices for broken down Chevy's.

[Bellhorn04]

Not many at all. The players may have performed, but he was not a good negotiator of contracts, and he had some shopping bad ones. If you buy a Mercedes and it works like a Mercedes is supposed to work, but you have paid 50% more for it than other buyers, you are a bad negotiator. It doesn't make you a good negotiator because you own a Mercedes. Across the board our GMs have overpaid, both for the Mercedes and they have often paid Mercedes prices for broken down Chevy's.

 

Can you name the contracts where Theo overpaid by 50%?

[a700hitter]

Can you name the contracts where Theo overpaid by 50%?

 

Yeah, but i' ll let you look them up.

lol!

[User Name]

Stop making s*** up. That would be a better idea.

[Kimmi]

WAR or no WAR the guys is an average type 3rd baseman. I can see paying him what he was getting in SF and maybe $10.-$12 mil. but the Sox decided to spend more money than they had to to get a decent 3rd baseman.

 

He has not put up good numbers at all. The last six games are decent but where have all his XBH gone and why does he make so many errors and blunders?

 

The Sox f***ed up. Plain and simple.

 

I mostly agree with everything until the last line. If Panda were playing at the leve that he played at the last 2 seasons, his signing would be fine.

[Kimmi]

And they paid Hanley who is a DH in waiting much more than they ever paid Big Papi (the best DH in history). Hanley's contract would have been a good contract if he still played SS -- a premium position. Clearly, that was not the case as he can't catch a cold. It seems to me that Ben and the Red Sox were bidding against themselves on Panda and Hanley. These were poor acquisitions from a team building perspective and to add insult to injury, they were overpays.

 

My prediction is that neither will be a full time player with the RedSox by the time these contracts finish.

 

Our last 2 gms have been like a couple of rubes when it comes to negotiating contracts. When I was growing up in Brooklyn, the old women shopping for groceries were shrewder negotiaters than our gms. They would have eaten Theo's and Ben' s lunch. Lol!

 

You may be right about no one else bidding on Hanley at the time the Sox signed him. His contract is still very reasonable though, and we don't know what kinds of offers he might have received.

 

The Sox were not bidding against themselves for Pablo. The Giants offered $95 million, IIRC, and said they would be willing to match the Sox offer.

[sk7326]

Wonder which contracts worked well throughout all their time contracted?

 

JD Drew: $70 million, 12.7 fWAR ... worked, although not a steal

John Lackey: $68 million, 9.2 fWAR ... did not work, although injury in middle impacts this (did not bother splitting WAR in 2014)

Julio Lugo: $36 million, 0.5 fWAR ... oops

Carl Crawford: $42 million, 0.3 fWAR ... oops squared

Josh Beckett I: $40 million, 15.1 fWAR ... worked very well

Josh Beckett II: $34 million ... 5.4 fWAR ... borderline, but better than you think

Edgar Renteria: $25 million ... 1.8 fWAR ... did not work, although he did produce 10+ fWAR over the terms of the contract. The player was appropriately valued/compensated - he just stunk the one year he was in Boston

 

Free agency was not Epstein's shining virtue - but it also was not nearly as bad as remembered

[Kimmi]

JD Drew: $70 million, 12.7 fWAR ... worked, although not a steal

John Lackey: $68 million, 9.2 fWAR ... did not work, although injury in middle impacts this (did not bother splitting WAR in 2014)

Julio Lugo: $36 million, 0.5 fWAR ... oops

Carl Crawford: $42 million, 0.3 fWAR ... oops squared

Josh Beckett I: $40 million, 15.1 fWAR ... worked very well

Josh Beckett II: $34 million ... 5.4 fWAR ... borderline, but better than you think

Edgar Renteria: $25 million ... 1.8 fWAR ... did not work, although he did produce 10+ fWAR over the terms of the contract. The player was appropriately valued/compensated - he just stunk the one year he was in Boston

 

Free agency was not Epstein's shining virtue - but it also was not nearly as bad as remembered

 

Theo's strength was building the farm system. He was also pretty good about knowing when not to re-sign our free agents, like Damon and Bay. As far as free agency goes, I think that Theo would have done a better job had he been given more autonomy and allowed to sign the players that he wanted to sign, rather than being pressured by Lucchino.

[a700hitter]

How about Matt (Head of Stone) Clement?

[sk7326]

How about Matt (Head of Stone) Clement?

 

$25M, 3 fWAR, injured halfway through the contract

 

Daisuke Matsuzaka $52M, 7.8 fWAR, injuries abound ...

 

Two pitchers I hated watching. Hard to do the "success/failure" game due to injuries, but clearly did not get maximum value out of either.

[jacksonianmarch]

There is no way to fix this in one offseason. Most of the guys you added for the long term have sucked. If you let Ortiz' option vest, you're stuck with him too. You either need to hope for a rebound back to career norms or have to spend big again in the FA pool, which we all know is a problem with the sox.

 

In terms of guaranteed money, you're already at $103.9 mil without factoring in any arb money or options (like Ortiz and Buchholz who together could account for another $30 mil next yr). My guess is Hanley will slot into 1b and Panda stay at 3b. YOu are set at SS and 2b. The C position likely is split between Vazquez and Swihart. You're on the hook for Castillo and likely have Betts out there too. If Ortiz' option vests, he's at DH. The only spot in your lineup that is open for next yr will be a COF spot. So your capability to upheave the roster is limited. On the mound, Miley and Porcello are locked into spot. I would assume ERod is as well. If Buch keeps pitching to a 4ERA, his option will be picked up. SO you are looking at 4 out of 5 spots filled too. Barring a major trade of guys you probably don't want to trade, you're gonna see a similar product on the field in 2016