2014 MLB Gamethread

[Navafan29]

http://espn.go.com/minor-league-baseball/story/_/id/10900007/seattle-mariners-class-affiliate-finishes-16-run-comeback

 

Wow.

 

Rofl! Game tied at 17-17 going into extras.

[Northern Star]

The spate of elbow surgeries is getting ridiculous. Jose Fernandez now likely done for the year. Is there one defining factor? I read that some think it's because these players threw year round as kids.

[seabeachfred]

The spate of elbow surgeries is getting ridiculous. Jose Fernandez now likely done for the year. Is there one defining factor? I read that some think it's because these players threw year round as kids.

 

There could be something to that Campfighter. In years past, like in the days before 2000, high school athletes played other sports besides baseball and were able to keep their arms from being overworked. Today with winter ball, travel teams and tournaments up the giggie, some young pitchers are throwing a helluva lot more innings than youngsters did before and some of these kids have not fully developed all their muscle culture. That could lead to weakness in the joints that erupt sooner than they normally would. There might be other reasons too but what we do know is that kids and pitching more and there are more arm injuries than ever before.

[Jasonbay44]

Damn, that Jose Fernandez injury sucks, I'm a big fan of that kid and he was on my fantasy team. Son of a bitch

[a700hitter]

So much emphasis is put on radar readings from when they are just kids that they over-tax their arms before they are physically mature. When pitchers were conditioned to go 9 innings, the condition of their legs were more important than today. The better conditioned legs and more aerobically fit bodies took the pressure off their arms. Also, they had to pace their stuff so they had something left in the late innings. They needed to get better command of secondary and off speed pitches. All of today's modern conditioning methods and pitch count theories has had the result of conditioning these kids to blow out their arms early in their careers. That has been the result. It's not bad luck or better diagnosis tools. IMO, the training methods and use of pitchers is the culprit. They need to rethink these methods from the ground up.

[Navafan29]

The spate of elbow surgeries is getting ridiculous. Jose Fernandez now likely done for the year. Is there one defining factor? I read that some think it's because these players threw year round as kids.

 

Too much obsession with studying video is turning all the players into weak nerds.

[rjortiz]

Too much obsession with studying video is turning all the players into weak nerds.

 

I'm pretty sure a torn ligament in the elbow hurts regardless of how many hours you watch videos.

[User Name]

Too much obsession with studying video is turning all the players into weak nerds.

 

This is literally the dumbest thing i've ever read.

[rjortiz]

The spate of elbow surgeries is getting ridiculous. Jose Fernandez now likely done for the year. Is there one defining factor? I read that some think it's because these players threw year round as kids.

 

Humans are not designed to throw hundreds of pitches. They are especially not designed to throw curveballs, sliders, or other breaking balls. Pitching is inherently a dangerous activity, so there will always be more pitchers who go under the knife. Ultimately, I think they are able to recognize the symptoms of an arm injury before irreversible damage is done to it. The average age of pitchers in the past was much shorter than they are today.

[a700hitter]

Humans are not designed to throw hundreds of pitches. They are especially not designed to throw curveballs, sliders, or other breaking balls. Pitching is inherently a dangerous activity, so there will always be more pitchers who go under the knife. Ultimately, I think they are able to recognize the symptoms of an arm injury before irreversible damage is done to it. The average age of pitchers in the past was much shorter than they are today.

 

But are the average innings pitched in a career more or less now than in th 60's and 70's?

[rjortiz]

But are the average innings pitched in a career more or less now than in th 60's and 70's?

 

How would we measure that, and wouldn't that suggest the opposite of what you say? They may have been pitching eight seasons worth of today's pitcher innings in only four, but most of them were ineffective after taking that much abuse. There are always going to be outliers, such as Tom Seaver, or Nolan Ryan, but I wouldn't base a strategy for the average pitcher on Hall of Famers.

 

I really don't think there is a panacea. Pitching is just inherently risky. The best conditioning program isn't going to change human anatomy.

[User Name]

But James Andrews, who is one of the top authorities in pitcher injuries and anatomy has suggested that the recent trend of pitcher injuries has an explanation: Pitchers are throwing too much (year-round baseball) and too many breaking pitches too young. It makes sense, because they are stressing underdeveloped muscles significantly and increasing both the short and long-term injury potential of an inherently risky activity.

 

That explanation both makes more sense, and directly correlates with the increase of year-long baseball activities and baseball specialization than the idiocy of "pitchers today are pussies" or "they're watching too much video".

[a700hitter]

How would we measure that, and wouldn't that suggest the opposite of what you say? They may have been pitching eight seasons worth of today's pitcher innings in only four, but most of them were ineffective after taking that much abuse. There are always going to be outliers, such as Tom Seaver, or Nolan Ryan, but I wouldn't base a strategy for the average pitcher on Hall of Famers.

 

I really don't think there is a panacea. Pitching is just inherently risky. The best conditioning program isn't going to change human anatomy.

If the average innings in a career were higher in earlier years, it would indicate that pitchers got more out of their arms than they do today. The measure of durability isn't seasons. It is innings pitched. I am not arguing that pitching isn't inherently dangerous. I am also not arguing that today's training and conditioning methods are not superior to the past. What I am suggesting is that the approach to pitching may be the culprit. Today, scouts are putting radar guns on kids at age 13. That is ridiculous. The emphasis for the last 25 years has been velocity from a very early age. The empasis for kids should be learning to throw strikes and command the zone. Any scout worth his salt can tell if a kid has good velocity without putting a gun on the kid. The kid's hear about the numbers that they are hitting on the guns and they are trying to tick up the velocity when they should be striving to throw strikes and get outs. Pitchers don't pace themselves today like they did years ago. If a pitcher's velocity is down a few ticks, they take him out and send him for xrays. In the 60's and 70's, they threw more secondary or offspeed pitches to get through an outing when they were a little tired. Seaver and Ryan weren't outliers. They were standouts, but not because they were workhorses. Every staff had guys that pitched a lot of innings. The Cards had Gibson and Carlton. The Dodgers had Drysdale, Koufax, Sutton and Osteen. The Giants had Marichal and Perry. The Twins had Dean Chance, Kaat, and Jim Perry and then Blyleven. The Tigers had McLain, Lolich and Wilson. The Mets had Seaver and Koosman. Even the lowly Guardians had Sam McDowell and Tiant. I could go on and on. Some of them were finished by age 30, but even those guys got 6-8 good seasons in the bigs.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This is literally the dumbest thing i've ever read.

Hey come on, you were 10 years old once.

[rjortiz]

If the average innings in a career were higher in earlier years, it would indicate that pitchers got more out of their arms than they do today. The measure of durability isn't seasons. It is innings pitched. I am not arguing that pitching isn't inherently dangerous. I am also not arguing that today's training and conditioning methods are not superior to the past. What I am suggesting is that the approach to pitching may be the culprit. Today, scouts are putting radar guns on kids at age 13. That is ridiculous. The emphasis for the last 25 years has been velocity from a very early age. The empasis for kids should be learning to throw strikes and command the zone. Any scout worth his salt can tell if a kid has good velocity without putting a gun on the kid. The kid's hear about the numbers that they are hitting on the guns and they are trying to tick up the velocity when they should be striving to throw strikes and get outs. Pitchers don't pace themselves today like they did years ago. If a pitcher's velocity is down a few ticks, they take him out and send him for xrays. In the 60's and 70's, they threw more secondary or offspeed pitches to get through an outing when they were a little tired. Seaver and Ryan weren't outliers. They were standouts, but not because they were workhorses. Every staff had guys that pitched a lot of innings. The Cards had Gibson and Carlton. The Dodgers had Drysdale, Koufax, Sutton and Osteen. The Giants had Marichal and Perry. The Twins had Dean Chance, Kaat, and Jim Perry and then Blyleven. The Tigers had McLain, Lolich and Wilson. The Mets had Seaver and Koosman. Even the lowly Guardians had Sam McDowell and Tiant. I could go on and on. Some of them were finished by age 30, but even those guys got 6-8 good seasons in the bigs.

 

I would have to think on it more, but I think I like this approach. Even if you save a pitcher from arm damage at 25, humans still age and decline in overall ability as they age. We could employ what NFL teams do with RB's with starting pitchers. Use them up while they are under team control for the first six years, and then let them walk after they are finished. I doubt this would actually happen, but you would extract the most value out of your starters while they are under your control.

 

One problem would be replacing 280 innings if a starter goes down. I'm also convinced that throwing 160 pitches in a game is risky, because pitching with an exhausted arm is more dangerous than pitching with a fresh one. I don't think any kind of conditioning program would mitigate that risk. Maybe anatomical freaks could do it, but not your typical pitcher. It is also pretty clear that pitchers are generally less effective the longer they are in the game. Relievers are better than starters, so it is a better strategy to use a fresh reliever over a tired starter.

 

I still wouldn't push starters beyond 110-120 pitches, but maybe a four man rotation would be feasible at regular pitch counts. It would eliminate the need for a fifth starter, who usually are below average anyway. Again, I doubt this is realistic, but just a thought.

Edited May 13, 2014 by rjortiz

[rjortiz]

The kid's hear about the numbers that they are hitting on the guns and they are trying to tick up the velocity when they should be striving to throw strikes and get outs. Pitchers don't pace themselves today like they did years ago.

 

I wonder if some of those pitchers in the 1960's would be able to get away with pacing themselves in today's environment. Pitching from Mount Sinai, and the lower quality of hitters probably helped them get away with that. It is almost a certainty that they were less effective the longer they were in the game. Maybe not as pronounced, but I still can't imagine any conditioning program that would alleviate arm fatigue after making a throwing motion hundreds of times in a few hours.

 

Seaver and Ryan weren't outliers. They were standouts, but not because they were workhorses. Every staff had guys that pitched a lot of innings. The Cards had Gibson and Carlton. The Dodgers had Drysdale, Koufax, Sutton and Osteen. The Giants had Marichal and Perry. The Twins had Dean Chance, Kaat, and Jim Perry and then Blyleven. The Tigers had McLain, Lolich and Wilson. The Mets had Seaver and Koosman. Even the lowly Guardians had Sam McDowell and Tiant. I could go on and on. Some of them were finished by age 30, but even those guys got 6-8 good seasons in the bigs.

 

I think we are on the same page when you put it this way. I was referring to longevity, but your idea of squeezing six productive seasons and moving on is something I would agree with

Edited May 13, 2014 by rjortiz

[a700hitter]

I would have to think on it more, but I think I like this approach. Even if you save a pitcher from arm damage at 25, humans still age and decline in overall ability as they age. We could employ what NFL teams do with RB's with starting pitchers. Use them up while they are under team control for the first six years, and then let them walk after they are finished. I doubt this would actually happen, but you would extract the most value out of your starters while they are under your control.

 

One problem would be replacing 280 innings if a starter goes down. I'm also convinced that throwing 160 pitches in a game is risky, because pitching with an exhausted arm is more dangerous than pitching with a fresh one. I don't think any kind of conditioning program would mitigate that risk. Maybe anatomical freaks could do it, but not your typical pitcher. It is also pretty clear that pitchers are generally less effective the longer they are in the game. Relievers are better than starters, so it is a better strategy to use a fresh reliever over a tired starter.

 

I still wouldn't push starters beyond 110-120 pitches, but maybe a four man rotation would be feasible at regular pitch counts. It would eliminate the need for a fifth starter, who usually are below average anyway. Again, I doubt this is realistic, but just a thought.

The way the game has progressed I don't think there is any going back. That wouldn't be realistic. I am just looking at the current day development of pitchers with a critical eye. Baseball as a whole looks at pitchers as huge capital investments that need to be protected and coddled. Pitcher's salaries were so much lower relative to society 30 or 40 years ago that they were more disposable. However, I have to wonder whether the coddling approach maximizes the value of the assets. As I mentioned in my prior post, players in the 60's and 70's came up to the bigs at a younger age. They generally had 6-8 good seasons in them. A few had substantially more. About the time those pitchers started to flame out would be when they would be eligible for free agency today. Essentially, the team they came up with used them up before they would have hit free agency in today's market. Today these pitchers are coddled until they get to free agency and get the huge bucks and then they blow out their arms anyway while making the big bucks, so what has been gained by the owners?

[Bellhorn04]

When you see so many kids blowing out their arms, though, it lends credibility to what Doc Andrews is saying.

[Palodios]

I have had a crazy thought about baseball for a few years now. Most won't agree with it, but it would fix many problems in the game.

 

Drop the number of balls for a walk to 3.

 

Pitchers will nibble less, and pitch to contact more. This will result in fewer pitches thrown, and potentially fewer arm injuries.

It will speed up games and make them more offensive oriented for casual and younger fans with short attention spans.

We will see fewer power throwers with absolutely no control. All those arms who can reach 100 mph, but can't find the strike zone will be pushed out of the league, and injuring fewer players.

There will be fewer balls thrown AT players to push them off the plate, or as warnings, ********. The rule will not prevent intentionally hitting someone, but warning throws will add up very quickly.

Each pitch will matter, and umpires will stop getting away with awful calls.

[Bellhorn04]

Alas, Pal, you just can't mess with the basics of the game like that.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I have had a crazy thought about baseball for a few years now. Most won't agree with it, but it would fix many problems in the game.

 

Drop the number of balls for a walk to 3.

 

Pitchers will nibble less, and pitch to contact more. This will result in fewer pitches thrown, and potentially fewer arm injuries.

It will speed up games and make them more offensive oriented for casual and younger fans with short attention spans.

We will see fewer power throwers with absolutely no control. All those arms who can reach 100 mph, but can't find the strike zone will be pushed out of the league, and injuring fewer players.

There will be fewer balls thrown AT players to push them off the plate, or as warnings, ********. The rule will not prevent intentionally hitting someone, but warning throws will add up very quickly.

Each pitch will matter, and umpires will stop getting away with awful calls.

 

To hell with this. I don't want baseball fandom to be full of any more stupid young people with s***** attention spans than it is already. If you want a game devoid of nuance and suspense with a fandom almost completely lacking in the ability to hold a meaningful conversation, watch basketball.

[Palodios]

Alas, Pal, you just can't mess with the basics of the game like that.

 

Its a crazy idea, but I do not think baseball will survive without speeding up the game.

 

To hell with this. I don't want baseball fandom to be full of any more stupid young people with s***** attention spans than it is already. If you want a game devoid of nuance and suspense with a fandom almost completely lacking in the ability to hold a meaningful conversation, watch basketball.

 

Would you rather baseball fandom be full of senile old people who complain about stupid young people with s***** attention spans? I recently read an article that said the median viewer age for the World Series clincher was 53. I work in Boston with a pile of 20-30 year old frat-type guys, and none of them are Red Sox fans. None.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Its a crazy idea, but I do not think baseball will survive without speeding up the game.

 

 

 

Would you rather baseball fandom be full of senile old people who complain about stupid young people with s***** attention spans? I recently read an article that said the median viewer age for the World Series clincher was 53. I work in Boston with a pile of 20-30 year old frat-type guys, and none of them are Red Sox fans. None.

 

Yes, I would. Because given a choice between tradition-bound older people who can have intensely interesting conversations abouit baseball and baseball history, and dumb, obnoxious frat boys who lace every sentence with Dane Cook jokes and who consider Twitter a viable form of both communication and journalism, I'll take the former every time. I'd rather an entire fanbase filled with Ken Burns clones than a single guy who turns off a no-hitter in the sixth because there haven't been enough home runs.

[a700hitter]

Its a crazy idea, but I do not think baseball will survive without speeding up the game.

This may be the biggest challenge for the sport. MLB is making trips to Japan, Australia etc and participating in the WBC to build global popularity of the sport but they are neglecting to address its waning popularity among younger generations in the USA. Their priorities seem to be off a bit since the games are played here and broadcasts are in US time zones.

[User Name]

It may be just me, but i think the world as a whole has more people than the US, regardless of broadcast times......

[rjortiz]

This may be the biggest challenge for the sport. MLB is making trips to Japan, Australia etc and participating in the WBC to build global popularity of the sport but they are neglecting to address its waning popularity among younger generations in the USA. Their priorities seem to be off a bit since the games are played here and broadcasts are in US time zones.

 

They are making some attempts to engage fans through social media, and have produced some shows that have "hip" celebrities (does Fat Joe count?) saying YOLO and swag which somehow relates to baseball. The WBC, Japan, and Australia trips are clearly a secondary priority. FIFA shuts down domestic leagues to stage friendlies, qualifiers, and tournaments. MLB puts pitch limits on pitchers, and the best don't even play during the WBC. The Japan and Australia trips is just one series a year.

 

MLB's biggest problem with young people is that most of them are priced out of stadium, and now they are starting to get priced out of watching on TV. MLB has to know this, and almost certainly could care less.

Edited May 14, 2014 by rjortiz

[Spudboy]

Kids just have too many other things to do now. It's much easier to just sit around and play video games and chat with devices. Why bother going outside and running around in baseball activities? That is too much work.

[Palodios]

Rangers lost two more starters in Harrison and Perez. They still have Darvish, but I can't see them recovering from all the destruction their starting rotation has seen.

[Jasonbay44]

So in my fantasy league a lot of people do the "streaming" s*** where they pick up a pitcher on day he's starting, start him, cut him immediately after his start and keep repeating. One guy who constantly has been picked up and dropped is Yordano Ventura.. I don't understand why by looking at his numbers, but thanks to other people being dipshits it looks like I got a pretty solid replacement for losing Jose Fernandez lol

[Bellhorn04]

So in my fantasy league a lot of people do the "streaming" s*** where they pick up a pitcher on day he's starting, start him, cut him immediately after his start and keep repeating.

 

Jesus, what a way to spend your time.