Done to a Crisp and Gonzalez Too

[Cityofchampions33]

then crisp should have had 80 BB's.

 

Yeah, he may not be the perfect lead-off guy. But there are many reasons to get him over Michaels.

1) Coco has the talent, potential, age, and conduct all over Jason.

2) He's only 26, the guy isn't even in his prime and he's in consideration for being traded for baseball's top 3b prospect.

3) Think of how much better he will do under Papa Jack, of whom has done miracles with this Red Sox offense (not to mention David Ortiz).

4) He will be entering into the "Fenway effect" which should add at least 15+ hits to that average.

5) Looking at his stats he's improved steadily over the past couple of years, add that in with his projected stats for next year.

 

Add it all together he could hit .320+

[example1]

To me, age does not factor in the Michaels deal since I don't think he is the long term answer. Given the cost of talent its taking to reel in a CF he is more a more cost effective option for the time being. This move makes more sense. Acquiring crisp goes against the general philosophy we have seen here in building for the future. I'm sorry but the Sox have a brighter future with Marte than they do with Crisp, hands down. Unless we are getting a prospect at least of Anibal Sanchez stature in this deal, I'm dissappointed.

 

My dissappointment could change depending on these two prospects, I admit. I don't like this deal as is, I don't like Crisp period. Until he does something manly like hit a grand slam in a series again the yankees when we are trailing by 3 or something that makes me smile, I'm not gonna like him for awhile. All grudges aside, he will hit, and depending on the prospects my frown could get turned against my will, upside down. Right now though, it doesn't look good. I might be visiting Frown City for quite some time.

 

That's funny stuff ksushi.

 

I think the sox are concerned about their future. At the same time, though, they have some players who are not going to be a part of that future and who can still contribute significantly to a WS run. The papelbon, Lester, hansen, Pedroia, Ellsbury era (Marte too) would not be until probably 2 to 3 years from now.

 

Currently we are in the Varitek, Nixon, Schilling, Wakefield, Foulke, Manny, Ortiz era. Add crisp to that list. We have a solid lineup for the next 2-3 years, and will have CONSIDERABLE financial flexibility when we get into the Paps, Lester, hansen, pedroia, Ellsbury era to buy a guy like, say, Andy Marte if our heart is set on it. We can offer Marte 12 million a year in a few years if we need to. We could buy Miguel Cabrera, or Willis or whomever we want.

 

In either case, the sox will be good this year. They will be good next year. They still have a great future and will be flexible when that future is here. They will be able to sign Ortiz to a long term deal, and find the players necessary to build another competitive team when it is needed.

[jsinger121]

Gordon edes talked about riske and josh bard coming to boston on sports final tonight. he also talked about kelly shoppach being in this deal somehow.

[a700hitter]

i just hope we are not trading away the next jeff bagwell if this deal does go down.

If he is the next Bagwell, imagine how bad Braves fans will feel. They gave him up for Renteria.

[26 to 6]

If he is the next Bagwell, imagine how bad Braves fans will feel. They gave him up for Renteria.

lol very true.

 

If I was a Braves fan I would be PISSED with that deal. Not a very smart move by Johnnie-boy IMO, but I understand they needed a shortstop. Should have gotten more though.

[guapo34]

I completely understand the people who dont' like the trade because they hate losing Marte. What I don't get is the people who think Crisp isn't a very good player, and those that think Jason Michaels is better.

 

Crisp rates as an above average left fielder. I don't see how an above average left fielder can be an awful center fielder. The red sox scouts obviously believe he isn't a liability out there or they wouldn't give up Marte to get him.

 

Offsensively, Crisp is much better than Michaels. Yes Michaels had a higher OBP. However, their road OBP's were nearly identical. Crisp road slugging% was 100 points higher. Thats a pretty significant difference. Crisps' OPS+ which is park adjusted was 11 points higher, but thats as a left fielder. His OPS+ goes up if you compare him to the average CF.

 

Anyone who thinks Crisp isn't a good pickup is either too lazy to consider the stats or too ignorant to figure out hes an excellent player.

 

This move shows the Red Sox are not willing to wait on the future at the expense of the present. While we have Manny, Schilling, and Tek on the team making lots of money i think the right thing to do is try and win this year.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Alex Gonzalez? Alex f***ing Gonzalez? Are you serious right now? How can anyone be excited about this? This guy could potentially K 130 times this year...he lacks all sorts of plate discpline, and has only shown glimses of power. And that's giving him the benefit of the doubt considering that he hit his 23 dongs in '04 (pre increased steriod testing), and that number plummeted to 5 in 05 (post increased steroid testing). Dude f***ing sucks. Straight up.

 

As far as Marte goes...Coco f***ing Crisp? I'm not big on the profanity here, but my head is just going nuts right now. Marte is one of the highest prospects IN BASEBALL...not in the Sox Organization, not in the American League, in freaking BASEBALL. If we're going to deal him, we should get something a helluva lot better than Crisp. Marte is a corner infielder with crazy power potential...and he's freaking 23. What made us decide on Crisp? Is Larry Anderson not available? I agree that we need a SS, and a centerfielder, and I agree that we need them badly...but this is the equivalent of us sending Renteria and $11 mil for Coco Freaking Crisp. I don't think anyone would have pulled the trigger on that, not with that much money involved. I'd rather find a temporary solution for center and keep Marte in Sox for a year or so, we can see him progress, and progress to our liking. And if not, at least progress whereas his trade value will be increased. If we were getting a Beltran or something along those lines I'd understand...but Crisp is about as close to a superstar as I am. And that's likely what we'll have should we hang onto Marte for a couple of years. Sheesh.

 

Oh, and Theo, Ben, Jed, Johnboy, Jimbob, whoever the hell else is moseying around the Sox Front Office...I'm going to go dig my glove out of the garage and oil it up, in the event you need me to play shortstop. My god fellas, get your heads out of your asses.

[example1]

Alex Gonzalez? Alex f***ing Gonzalez? Are you serious right now? How can anyone be excited about this? This guy could potentially K 130 times this year...he lacks all sorts of plate discpline, and has only shown glimses of power. And that's giving him the benefit of the doubt considering that he hit his 23 dongs in '04 (pre increased steriod testing), and that number plummeted to 5 in 05 (post increased steroid testing). Dude f***ing sucks. Straight up.

 

As far as Marte goes...Coco f***ing Crisp? I'm not big on the profanity here, but my head is just going nuts right now. Marte is one of the highest prospects IN BASEBALL...not in the Sox Organization, not in the American League, in freaking BASEBALL. If we're going to deal him, we should get something a helluva lot better than Crisp. Marte is a corner infielder with crazy power potential...and he's freaking 23. What made us decide on Crisp? Is Larry Anderson not available? I agree that we need a SS, and a centerfielder, and I agree that we need them badly...but this is the equivalent of us sending Renteria and $11 mil for Coco Freaking Crisp. I don't think anyone would have pulled the trigger on that, not with that much money involved. I'd rather find a temporary solution for center and keep Marte in Sox for a year or so, we can see him progress, and progress to our liking. And if not, at least progress whereas his trade value will be increased. If we were getting a Beltran or something along those lines I'd understand...but Crisp is about as close to a superstar as I am. And that's likely what we'll have should we hang onto Marte for a couple of years. Sheesh.

 

Oh, and Theo, Ben, Jed, Johnboy, Jimbob, whoever the hell else is moseying around the Sox Front Office...I'm going to go dig my glove out of the garage and oil it up, in the event you need me to play shortstop. My god fellas, get your heads out of your asses.

 

 

Here's the deal, according to the Globe:

http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2006/01/23/source_sox_agree_to_crisp_deal/

 

Sox lose:

Marte ( 3B ), Mota (RP) and Shoppach ©

 

Sox get:

Crisp (CF), David Riske (RP), and Josh Bard ©

 

I will now go to bed happy.

[Damonwillfryforthis]

Giving up Marte for Crisp does seem like a lot based on Marte's potential, but remember how much "potential" guys like Rick Ankiel and Todd Van Poppel had? They pegged Van Poppel the next Nolan Ryan which didn't quite pan out. I think getting Crisp going into his peak years and with his stats gradualy getting better as each year passes is a good thing.

Sure Marte could be the next Scott Rolen or he could be the next Eric Hinske, and he had all the "potential" after his rookie of the year award and now i wouldn't give that guy a bag of oranges a year to play for my team.

Crisps hitting will only get better in Fenway and he is a more than capable CF. I'll go out on a limb and say that Crisp has a better year than Damon this year and he will be a staple in the Sox outfield for years and become a star in Boston. If you go by Marte's play last year in AAA and in winterball this year, he has a lot of catching up to do.

[riverside sluggers]

See now Im happy for the Mota/Riske swap. There's really no questions about that Riske has less question marks revolving around him than Mota. Proven himself in the AL, and that career 3.55 ERA, 0.95 walks plus hits per nine innings .203 batting avg righties, .213 batting avg vs lefties speaks volume. Our bullpen is strengthened even more.

 

People can say what they want about Coco, but Im happy to see him coming to Boston. Sorry to the Crisp haters, but thats how baseball business goes. He is primed to be here 4 or more seasons, so gotta get used to him one way or another. And I still doubt Boston wouldve been able to do a straight up Mota for Michaels swap, Theo wouldnt be that stupid to pass it up. The Phillies wouldve clearly asked for more in return with Boston's state of mind.

 

How dare Theo get Coco Crisp! Yeah it sucks that we have a center fielder now, a lead off hitter now. A center fielder capable of horrid stats such as 100+ Runs scored, .315+ avg, .355+ OBP, 20 or more HRs, can steal 20 bases and has a better thorwing arm than Damon, and is just 26. Cmon lets lead a revolt to Fenway Park for Theo's head!!

[Cityofchampions33]

I'm pretty happy with the trade now that Rike is in it, he should help against lefties a lot. Also, we killed a few bird with one stone gettin Bard included too.

Bard is a switch-hitter with a line-drive swing. He hit better late in the season after hitting coach Eddie Murray convinced him to open his stance and be more aggressive when he was ahead in the count. Defensively, Bard calls a good game and threw out 31.7 percent (19-for-60) of the basestealers he faced. But at times he struggled to catch the ball cleanly and block balls in the dirt. Bard worked with catching coach Joel Skinner to cut down his movement behind the plate. Bard runs like you'd think a sore-kneed, 215-pound catcher would

I like the 31.7 percent, plus he's only 27 and has Major League experience. So we basically got out backup catcher right there.

[Beckett95]

ken rosenthal posted this around 3 hours ago.

The Guardians' tentative plan to trade outfielder Coco Crisp to the Red Sox and reliever Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies could hinge on whether Red Sox reliever Guillermo Mota passes the Guardians' physical, FOXSports.com has learned.

 

The first trade, the core of which would be Crisp for Mota and third baseman Andy Marte, would trigger the second, Rhodes for outfielder Jason Michaels. But officials with two of the clubs involved cited Mota's recent arm trouble as a potential deal-buster. Rhodes' condition also could be an issue — he missed time in August with an inflamed right knee. Rhodes, 36, and Mota, 32, are the two oldest players in the deals.

The Red Sox are not operating under the assumption that their acquisition of Crisp is a given. They maintained contact with other prospective trade partners Sunday, keeping their options open in the event they needed contingency plans.

 

Teams generally require physicals for any player obtained in a trade or as a free agent, but each club uses its own standards for judging whether a player is sound. A player who is deemed physically suitable by one team could be deemed unsuitable by another.

 

In Dec. 2003, the Guardians were set to send shortstop Omar Vizquel to the Mariners for shortstop Carlos Guillen, but the Mariners quashed the deal because of concern over Vizquel, who had undergone two surgeries on his right knee. That concern proved unfounded —Vizquel appeared in 148 games with the Guardians in '04 and 152 with the Giants in '05.

 

Mota evidently met the approval of Red Sox team physicians when the team acquired him along with right-hander Josh Beckett and third baseman Mike Lowell in a seven-player trade with the Marlins on Nov. 24. The Sox then offered Mota a contract on Dec. 20 and last week signed him to a one-year, $3 million deal, avoiding salary arbitration.

 

Mota, however, missed more than a month with an inflamed elbow early last season and underwent an MRI that revealed shoulder inflammation in late September. If he does not pass the Guardians' physical, the Red Sox would need to revise their offer for Crisp or pursue another center fielder.

 

Marte, 22, would be the most important acquisition for the Guardians, whose current starter at third base, Aaron Boone, 32, is a free agent at the end of the season. The Guardians currently lack a quality third baseman in their farm system, and the position generally is difficult to fill through free agency or trades.

 

 

The health of prospect Andy Marte could be the holdup in the Coco Crisp deal. (Otto Gruele Jr. / Getty Images)

 

The trade of Crisp, however, could hurt the Guardians offensively, at least short term. Crisp, 26, is a proven regular, while Michaels, 29, has never had more than 299 at-bats in a season. The Guardians could use Michaels, a right-handed hitter, in a platoon with Todd Hollandsworth, who bats left. But some scouts believe that Michaels would improve his statistics if he played every day.

 

The Guardians' bullpen also would take on a different look without Rhodes - Scott Sauerbeck would become the sole left-handed reliever. Rhodes posted a 2.08 ERA and held opponents to a .206 batting average in 47 appearances last season, but allowed 11 of 25 inherited runners to score and missed most of the final two months due to a bereavement leave, his knee injury and a personal matter. With the Phillies, he would be reunited with general manager Pat Gillick, for whom he previously pitched with the Orioles and Mariners.

 

Crisp would play center field for the Red Sox, though most scouts say he is better in left. The Sox also would sign free agent Alex Gonzalez to play shortstop, according to the Boston Herald. Those plans, however, could change if the Sox's trade with the Guardians fell apart, forcing the Sox to consider other center-field options and possibly revisit a deal for Devil Rays shortstop Julio Lugo.

 

rotoworld also says that a deal with the reds fell through at the last minute which took bard and riske out of the deal and now its just mota and marte for crisp. I really would have wante riske and bard's not bad either. What happen to the two low level prospects???

[Rdsxmbnt]

Theres no way the sox can settle for Marte and Mota for Crisp. Imo Marte is worth more than Crisp alone, Riske (or a MR of his caliber) or good prospect needs to be involved or the Red Sox are getting jipped. Anyway if you can get something like Marte/Mota for Crisp/Riske than that would be a decent deal. Gives us a top set-up man along with the future CF, and once Ellsbury is ready Crisp can shift over to LF/RF where he has tremendous value as a defender also. Hopefully what rotoworld is saying about is false info (any idea how it relates to the Reds?).

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Now I'm not too happy for the deal. I was waiting to hear all the names and we are getting screwed....

 

Andy Marte

Guillermo Mota

Kelly Shoppach

 

for

 

Coco Crisp

David Riske

Josh Bard

 

.....we are getting wrecked in the catcher deal alone. Why would we give up Shoppach for Bard?? Thats much too one sided. I would say Riske and Mota were even if not for injury concerns to Mota. Then we have Andy Marte for Coco Crisp which is in favor of Cleveland. At this point we are getting the worse end of the deal in all three areas with the possible exception of David Riske.

 

They need to add Adam Miller in this deal

[Rdsxmbnt]

Now I'm not too happy for the deal. I was waiting to hear all the names and we are getting screwed....

 

Andy Marte

Guillermo Mota

Kelly Shoppach

 

for

 

Coco Crisp

David Riske

Josh Bard

 

.....we are getting wrecked in the catcher deal alone. Why would we give up Shoppach for Bard?? Thats much too one sided. I would say Riske and Mota were even if not for injury concerns to Mota. Then we have Andy Marte for Coco Crisp which is in favor of Cleveland. At this point we are getting the worse end of the deal in all three areas with the possible exception of David Riske.

 

They need to add Adam Miller in this deal

 

Heck id probaly give up Marte/Mota/Shoppach for Crisp and Miller alone, but I doubt it happens. If the Sox can find a way to get like a Marte/Mota/Shoppach for Crisp/Riske/Garko id probaly feel better about the deal. Unfortunatly this is the price for a good young CF, the Sox werent going to get a Jeremy Reed/Coco Crisp without trading a top prospect, as much as many wanted to see an Arroyo/Clement deal get done.

[a700hitter]

JSinger, this should give you some hope. Deal is not yet done:

 

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/ohio/sports/13689951.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_sports

[Beckett95]

 

They need to add Adam Miller in this deal

 

im fine with that :thumbsup:

[Beckett95]

there are 3 possible deals out there right now.

 

1. The boston herald is reporting a deal with marte and mota for crisp.

 

2. The globe is saying that the deal includes mota, marte and shoppach for crisp, riske and bard.

 

3. one of the cleveland papers is saying mota, marte and delcarmen for crisp and 2 low-level minor leaguers.

 

if anything, im hoping the second choice is the right one.

[ACL BoSox]

You guys put way too much faith into unproven prospects. If Marte stays on the Sox and hits .200 this year you will be crying.

[Rdsxmbnt]

You guys put way too much faith into unproven prospects. If Marte stays on the Sox and hits .200 this year you will be crying.

 

No, I dont think many people see Marte being David Wright or Cabrera next season, probaly if he wasnt/isnt traded he would begin hte year in AAA or as a platoon player at 3B. If he were to hit .200 next year as a part time player I wouldnt think of that as "hes done" but if hes a .870+ OPS guy in say 07 or 08 then I wouldnt be happy. But that all depends on how Crisp does. If Crisp is a .315/.365/.485/.850 hitter with speed at a position like CF is that as valuable as a .277/.370/.555/.925 hitter at a power position like 3B?

[Plumpamania]

Andy Marte - 3B - Red Sox

 

 

According to the Boston Globe, the Red Sox will acquire Coco Crisp, David Riske and Josh Bard from the Guardians for Andy Marte, Guillermo Mota and Kelly Shoppach.

We're probably as big of Riske fans as anyone, but this isn't much better for Boston. Bard ceased making progress years ago, and it looks like other teams have stopped thinking of him as a regular. Shoppach can be twice the player that Bard is. Riske is probably a modest upgrade over Mota in middle relief, though the Guardians didn't have much use for him. Crisp for Marte is still the killer, no matter how solid of a player Crisp has become. What makes things even worse is that with Kevin Youkilis no longer needed at the top of the lineup, we can see Terry Francona giving J.T. Snow way too much playing time at first base. The Globe suggests that the only hurdle remaining for the trade is a Mota physical. Jan. 23 - 1:52 am et

Source: Boston Globe

 

 

The reason why I don't like this trade is that Shoppach is already better than Bard. Riske is only a modest upgrade over Mota, and Marte is David Wright V2. I hate the trade.

[gosox613]

I'd like to point out, shillingouttheks, that there is a lot more parity on this thread than what you attacked me for.

[schillingouttheks]

I'd like to point out, shillingouttheks, that there is a lot more parity on this thread than what you attacked me for.

hmmm...

 

...why are you being so belligerent, how about we stay on topic and talk about the trade not your standards for my posts

[26 to 6]

I'd like to point out, shillingouttheks, that there is a lot more parity on this thread than what you attacked me for.

He should start the year at AAA. Thats what the Braves were planning on doing I believe.

[pats55sox45]

so many ppl in here are being ridiculous

 

if you can get a proven star in crisp, who is YOUNG TOO, for a prospect you do it, case closed

[KeepTheFaith1229]

The Sox and Braves must have seen something in Marte. Honestly, name a great prospect that turned into a great major leaguer who got traded twice in two months.

[He Hate Me]

got a good point there.

[a700hitter]

The Sox and Braves must have seen something in Marte. Honestly, name a great prospect that turned into a great major leaguer who got traded twice in two months.

Aaron Small.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

The more I read about this the more I'm starting to hate it....the reason is because I'm seeing other teams we could be making a better deal with INCLUDING the Guardians (meaning there are other guys we could be talking about on there team). If we are going to sign Alex Gonzalez (which I am not against cause his defense is awesome) then our only hole is CF. You mean to tell me we can't put together a trade with Wells, Clement or Arroyo???

 

If we have to trade Andy Marte why not talk to the Athletics about Barry Zito?

 

Maybe the Dodgers will talk to us about the availability of Eric Gagne?

 

There are other CF prospects we could be talking about in regard to Marte. If anything I think a fair deal would be Coco Crisp and Adam Miller for Andy Marte and Matt Clement. Hell we could even continue with the Mota for Riske feature....doesn't that seem like a fair deal??

 

Coco Crisp (we need CF) + Adam Miller for Andy Marte + Matt Clement (Guardians need SP)

[jimmycarter05]

The more I read about this the more I'm starting to hate it....the reason is because I'm seeing other teams we could be making a better deal with INCLUDING the Guardians (meaning there are other guys we could be talking about on there team). If we are going to sign Alex Gonzalez (which I am not against cause his defense is awesome) then our only hole is CF. You mean to tell me we can't put together a trade with Wells, Clement or Arroyo???

 

If we have to trade Andy Marte why not talk to the Athletics about Barry Zito?

 

Maybe the Dodgers will talk to us about the availability of Eric Gagne?

 

There are other CF prospects we could be talking about in regard to Marte. If anything I think a fair deal would be Coco Crisp and Adam Miller for Andy Marte and Matt Clement. Hell we could even continue with the Mota for Riske feature....doesn't that seem like a fair deal??

 

Coco Crisp (we need CF) + Adam Miller for Andy Marte + Matt Clement (Guardians need SP)

 

 

Yeah I heard somewhere that kid can throw 100 MPH, is that true? If so begone with Marte for him!