Done to a Crisp and Gonzalez Too

[ksushi]

Don't think the ball park has much factor in a players defense. I read reports that talk about Crisps bad instincts and lack of range and i read more on michaels praising the glove hes got.

 

yankees suck, don't tell me to calm down on a baseball forum. if you don't like spirited baseball talk why do you come here? maybe you'd prefer one liners and very simple opinions, opinions that all agree with you of course, and nice happy people who don't care about their teams. Maybe you should stop reading, because I don't know about you, but to me baseball is something i love and im obsessed with the sox and I love to talk about them. If you don't feel that way and you want something more mellow, go look for it from somewhere that isn't a baseball forum.

[jsinger121]

michaels is not that good of a centerfielder. he lacks the range to play it on a fulltime basis.

[example1]

I can't help but wonder, and perhaps someone could fill me in here, why was Michaels behind Kenny Lofton on the depth chart if he is as good as everyone implies? The phillies were a decent team last year, it seems that he would have played a whole lot more if he were really a .430 OBP kind of guy. I don't know.

 

In any case, the fact that Michaels and Coco have similar numbers, yet Crisp is considerably younger and a switch hitter is enough for me to be happy with this deal. Again, I'm VERY skeptical of a straight-up Cleveland-Philly Mota/Michaels trade.

[Beckett95]

Crisp is a better player than Michaels. It sucks if we trade Marte, but that was the price of Crisp.

Michaels plays in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball while Crisp plays in one of hte most pitcher friendly. Look at both hitters road numbers and tell me Michales is the much better player and Crisp sucks.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=4653 Michaels

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5299 Coco

 

isn't fenway hitter friendly?? Its not like these guys need to hit HR's. They need to get ON-BASE, which michaels is much better at doing than Crisp.

 

Last year michaels had 45 K's and 44 BB.

Crisp had 81 K's and 44 BB.

 

I dont think the park will change those stats.

[Beckett95]

I can't help but wonder, and perhaps someone could fill me in here, why was Michaels behind Kenny Lofton on the depth chart if he is as good as everyone implies? The phillies were a decent team last year, it seems that he would have played a whole lot more if he were really a .430 OBP kind of guy. I don't know.

 

In any case, the fact that Michaels and Coco have similar numbers, yet Crisp is considerably younger and a switch hitter is enough for me to be happy with this deal. Again, I'm VERY skeptical of a straight-up Cleveland-Philly Mota/Michaels trade.

 

because lofton had a great year last year. The one problem with michaels is that he has an off-the field problem. Something about getting in a fight with a cop.

[jsinger121]

plus he does not have great range to play centerfield on a fulltime basis.

[Beckett95]

im not saying michaels is better than crisp but would you rather

 

A.) Trade Mota and one of the best prospects in baseball for Crisp

OR

B.) Trade Mota straight up for a guy who will give you the same production

 

??

[example1]

Don't think the ball park has much factor in a players defense. I read reports that talk about Crisps bad instincts and lack of range and i read more on michaels praising the glove hes got.

 

yankees suck, don't tell me to calm down on a baseball forum. if you don't like spirited baseball talk why do you come here? maybe you'd prefer one liners and very simple opinions, opinions that all agree with you of course, and nice happy people who don't care about their teams. Maybe you should stop reading, because I don't know about you, but to me baseball is something i love and im obsessed with the sox and I love to talk about them. If you don't feel that way and you want something more mellow, go look for it from somewhere that isn't a baseball forum.

 

I would think the ball park would have considerable factor in a player's defense, but that's just me. Doesn't the amount of available space for one to catch fly-balls in have an impact on the number and type of flyballs that one catches? But I digress...

 

I appreciate your passion Ksushi, but I'll raise it with a dose of Coco Crisp. This guy is, apparently, going to be our starting CF next year and likely on the team for the next 3 seasons or so (though the Sox FO gets creative sometimes). It seems like regardless of our like or dislike of this deal that seems to be the most blatent fact here.

 

For whatever their reasons, the Sox FO would rather have Crisp than Michaels. Perhaps they have considerably different contracts, or there is some split that the Sox FO is concerned about with Michaels. Perhaps Philly wants a particular minor leaguer from Cleveland or a particular minor leaguer from BOS that they are not willing to part with. Perhaps they were trying to treat Boston as if they were searching for a starting CFer and leadoff hitter, rather than as a team looking for a 3rd or 4th outfielder (like CLE is). In any case, if the Sox FO knew that Michaels was not an option then I don't see anything wrong with Crisp. Ellsbury is at least 2-3 seasons away and Crisp could be a valuable trading piece if he's ready earlier than that.

 

Finally, again, we don't know who the minor league players involved are.

 

good passion though dude.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Jason Michaels won't give you the same production as Coco Crisp. Michaels can only hit cause he plays in Philadelphia. He still only hit 4 HRs last season....he sucks

 

Coco Crisp is athletic, has speed, has some pop to his bat...he is a good player and he is walking into the prime of his career.....whatever the outcome I'm sure the front office is capable of making the right decision.

[Beckett95]

from rotoworld

 

According to the Cleveland Plain Dealer's Paul Hoynes, the Guardians will acquire Andy Marte, Guillermo Mota and a minor league pitcher from the Red Sox for Coco Crisp and two low-level prospects.

Hoynes indicates that a physical for Mota, scheduled for early in the week, is the only hurdle left. If the deal is finalized, the Guardians would likely then trade Mota, Arthur Rhodes or David Riske to the Phillies for Jason Michaels. We're left to wonder why the Red Sox just don't trade Mota for Michaels themselves. It'd make a lot more sense than this. Jan. 22 - 8:55 pm et

 

atleast me and ksushi aren't the only ones

[jimmycarter05]

isn't fenway hitter friendly?? Its not like these guys need to hit HR's. They need to get ON-BASE, which michaels is much better at doing than Crisp.

 

Last year michaels had 45 K's and 44 BB.

Crisp had 81 K's and 44 BB.

 

I dont think the park will change those stats.

 

 

Crisp had about 300 more ABs too. Plus the fact that Michaels is a headcase, he has been convicted of DUI and assaulting a police officer and right now is doing Community Service.

[Beckett95]

Jason Michaels won't give you the same production as Coco Crisp. Michaels can only hit cause he plays in Philadelphia. He still only hit 4 HRs last season....he sucks

 

Coco Crisp is athletic, has speed, has some pop to his bat...he is a good player and he is walking into the prime of his career.....whatever the outcome I'm sure the front office is capable of making the right decision.

 

 

whats more important in a lead-off hitter??

 

speed, power, athleticism

 

OR

 

ability to get on base and plate discipline

[example1]

im not saying michaels is better than crisp but would you rather

 

A.) Trade Mota and one of the best prospects in baseball for Crisp

OR

B.) Trade Mota straight up for a guy who will give you the same production

 

??

 

How clear does this have to be? The red sox never had the opportunity to trade Mota for Michaels. THEY ARE NOT STUPID! If they could hold onto their top prospect and a top 10 prospect in the league, THEY WOULD! Geez, look a little deeper at what must be going on here.

 

Do you truly think that the Sox FO didn't spend much time thinking about this? Do you think they didn't notice that Michaels has 'x' fielding ratings, or 'x' OBP, or 'x' other attributes? Of course they probably spent hours doing it along lines that some of us would never even imagine existed. They are not stupid enough to trade Marte for no good reason.

[riverside sluggers]

im not saying michaels is better than crisp but would you rather

 

A.) Trade Mota and one of the best prospects in baseball for Crisp

OR

B.) Trade Mota straight up for a guy who will give you the same production

 

??

 

Who's to say that Theo didnt even ask the Phillies about such a proposition? And its evident that the Phillies wouldve asked more than Mota instead of straight up, which has only been brought up since the Guardians are speculated of doing so. IMO the Phillies are less inclined to ask for more since Cleveland is not in panic mode as the Sox have been this offseason, making other teams asking for the moon from Boston.

[26 to 6]

Yeah, I expect the Yankees to be careful with him.

They better be. He will be huge for us. I just dont understand why we only got him on a 1 year, we should have at least gotten an option.

 

IMO, both Dotel and Farnsworth are a step down from Tom Gordon the past few years. Its good for the Yanks that they have them, don't get me wrong, but Tom Gordon was experienced and had pretty good stuff. He also had proved that he could handle that situation working with Mo.

All true. Good post

[example1]

from rotoworld

 

 

 

atleast me and ksushi aren't the only ones

 

At least they are 'wondering why' instead of just assuming that this is the case. Until the deal is finalized I think it is silly to assume we know all the parts.

[Beckett95]

Crisp had about 300 more ABs too.

 

then crisp should have had 80 BB's.

 

scouting report on crisp

Crisp is a switch-hitting, line-drive hitter who chokes up on the bat, sprays the ball around and likes to bunt. If Crisp walked more, he would be an ideal leadoff hitter. But patience is a problem. He likes to swing early in the count, hitting .380 (27-for-71) on the first pitch. The Guardians felt they put too much pressure on Crisp in 2003 when they asked him to hit leadoff. Last year, he spent most of his time in the ninth spot. Pitchers try to overpower the deceptively strong Crisp with fastballs.

 

If michaels got 600 AB's last year, he would have had the second highest WARP for any CF in baseball.

[riverside sluggers]

No offense, but you shouldnt have Crisp as your avatar since you're now obviously against the Sox's decision of getting Coco

[example1]

then crisp should have had 80 BB's.

 

scouting report on crisp

 

 

If michaels got 600 AB's last year, he would have had the second highest WARP for any CF in baseball.

 

If that's the ESPN scouting report its is the one from 2004, and does not include any comment or consideration of his 2005 season. I also imagine that a PECOTA evaluation or other types of projection systems really like what they see in Crisp. For his age, he has produced consistently and admirably over the past few years. If nothing else I think he could end up being as valuable to the Sox as trot nixon has been over the past 6 years; perhaps in different ways but valuable nonetheless.

[Beckett95]

i like crisp, but i dont like giving up marte. I think he'll have a pretty good year here, but id rather keep marte.

[jsinger121]

i'm in agreement with you beckett. crisp is a nice ballplayer but i wouldn't give up a potential 40 homer guy in marte for him.

[Beckett95]

If that's the ESPN scouting report its is the one from 2004, and does not include any comment or consideration of his 2005 season.

 

he had almost the same type of season in 2005 as he did in 2004, except for less K's

[example1]

i like crisp, but i dont like giving up marte. I think he'll have a pretty good year here, but id rather keep marte.

 

Would you feel that way if they win the WS next year? I sure wouldn't, even if Marte goes on to be Scott Rolen. They need particular pieces to be competative (or more than competative) for the next few years, and IMO crisp looks more like one of those pieces than Marte. We have 3Bmen, Lowell and Youkilis. We lack OFers. Adam stern was going to start! Gabe Kaplar is some people's savior!?!?? Crisp fits with the Sox current plans more than marte does. With Marte it will be 2-3 years at least until he's carrying a team on his shoulders. We have guys who carry the team on their shoulders. I believe we have 7 (count 'em, 7) draft picks in the top 100 or so next year, after our 6 from last year. Our future is NOT shot by any stretch of the imagination, and the lull between now and then should be minimized because we traded Renteria and ultimately got back Crisp + ??.

 

I'm still intersted in knowing who ?? is too. Hopefully a good young pitcher.

[Beckett95]

if we can get Brad Snyder and Nick Pesco as the prospects, Id be a little more pleased with this deal.

 

hopefully they'll be some sort of official anouncement tommorow

[ACL BoSox]

Marte has a lot of potential folks... POTENTIAL!

 

A lot of these high potential prospects work out, HOWEVER, a lot of them do not as well. So lets not lable Marte a 40-HR hitter yet.

 

2-3 years down the line we will be able to see if this deal worked in our favor or not, if Marte fully realizes his potential, Cleveland got the better end of this deal. HOWEVER, if Marte fizzles out and doesn't become what he could have been, then the Red Sox are the winners. Let's stop whining about losing this "amazing" prospects, I want to see them do something on the major league level before I get upset about losing them.

[jsinger121]

i just hope we are not trading away the next jeff bagwell if this deal does go down.

[example1]

he had almost the same type of season in 2005 as he did in 2004, except for less K's

 

Yeah, except he did it twice and had 20 more doubles the second season. If anything ESPN will say that Crisp is bound to remain a good outfielder for years to come, given that he had 2 nearly .800 OPS seasons in his early/mid 20's. That's about what Johnny Damon did in his seasons between the ages of 24 and 25. One season he was below .800, the next above it.

 

If the Sox could trade Marte for 3 seasons of mid 20's Johnny damon at a VERY reasonable price I'd do it. Not if this team were starting from scratch, but if that player is being added to an already solid team. Coco Crisp in CF has a better Rate than Damon did at his age in CF.

 

Give Crisp some time to play CF. Give him some time to practice and get better. Damon was an average to below average CFer until he was 26 in 2000. He was an above average RF and LF until then. Much like Crisp.

 

Look folks, Crisp isn't the second coming of Mantle here. However, I feel a whole lot better about the 2006 and 2007 Sox than I did a few days ago.

[example1]

if we can get Brad Snyder and Nick Pesco as the prospects, Id be a little more pleased with this deal.

 

hopefully they'll be some sort of official anouncement tommorow

 

Are these guys low-level prospects?

 

Low-level to me means either AA or below, probably below.

 

there are a few guys I would happily take from AA or below from the Sox team, that's for sure. If the sox get an Ellsbury or Bowden equivalent then I'm happy.

[gosox613]

Marte has a lot of potential folks... POTENTIAL!

 

A lot of these high potential prospects work out, HOWEVER, a lot of them do not as well. So lets not lable Marte a 40-HR hitter yet.

 

2-3 years down the line we will be able to see if this deal worked in our favor or not, if Marte fully realizes his potential, Cleveland got the better end of this deal. HOWEVER, if Marte fizzles out and doesn't become what he could have been, then the Red Sox are the winners. Let's stop whining about losing this "amazing" prospects, I want to see them do something on the major league level before I get upset about losing them.

I agree, i am surprised by how convinced some people are that marte is going to be a studly 40 hr hitting player.

[ksushi]

To me, age does not factor in the Michaels deal since I don't think he is the long term answer. Given the cost of talent its taking to reel in a CF he is more a more cost effective option for the time being. This move makes more sense. Acquiring crisp goes against the general philosophy we have seen here in building for the future. I'm sorry but the Sox have a brighter future with Marte than they do with Crisp, hands down. Unless we are getting a prospect at least of Anibal Sanchez stature in this deal, I'm dissappointed.

 

My dissappointment could change depending on these two prospects, I admit. I don't like this deal as is, I don't like Crisp period. Until he does something manly like hit a grand slam in a series again the yankees when we are trailing by 3 or something that makes me smile, I'm not gonna like him for awhile. All grudges aside, he will hit, and depending on the prospects my frown could get turned against my will, upside down. Right now though, it doesn't look good. I might be visiting Frown City for quite some time.