Done to a Crisp and Gonzalez Too

[riverside sluggers]

UIf you look at the stats, Varitek doesnt hold a MAJOR edge over Posada. He only had 3 more HR's then him. Posada drove in 1 more RBI and Varitek had a 14 point edge on him in OBP. I wouldnt call that a huge edge.

 

i believe Capt Tek just a got a glove of a certain color

 

now thats what i call edge

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

i believe Capt Tek just a got a glove of a certain color

 

now thats what i call edge

hmmm I dont think I said he didnt have an edge and if you look at Varitek's defensive stats you can make a case he didnt deserve that gold glove.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

36 with a damn bad shoulder problem. He was considering retirement as well, if I remember correctly.

 

He's 37 as someone just said, so his 34 homers from 2005 should probably go down to about 28-30

 

If you say that I can come back and say Sheffield big over Nixon.

 

Not true. Manny will dominate Matsui offensively. Nixon is projected to hit 19 home runs in 2006, he will improve from last year and Sheff wil regress. OBP should be similar. Sheff over Nixon, that's true, but Sheffield BIG over Nixon? No.

[jsinger121]

and you can also make the case that jeter didn't deserve the gold glove over orlando cabrera last year

[yankeessuck013]

hmmm I dont think I said he didnt have an edge and if you look at Varitek's defensive stats you can make a case he didnt deserve that gold glove.

 

who deserved it more than him?

 

and I could make a case jeter shouldnt of won his gold glove, cabrera should have.

[riverside sluggers]

Crisp had an OPS+ of 119 last year vs 113 for damon. The number is park adjusted, and Crisp is more likely to get better seeing as hes much younger. OPS+ for Varitek was 125 vs 105 for Posada. The two previous years Posada edged varitek though.

 

As for the ideal lineup for the sox i think its:

 

Youk

Loretta

Ortiz

Manny

Crisp

Nixon

Tek

Lowell

Gonzalez/Cora

 

and you flip Nixon and Lowell against lefties. Nixon isn't as much of a liability against lefties hitting 8th. Youk gets on base more than Crisp and Crisp has more power, so I like him better 5th.

 

From what Ive heard on WEEI and seen in various news reports, the plan is set to have Crisp leadoff and the following lineup

 

1. Crisp cf (S)

2. Loretta 2b ®

3. Ortiz dh (L)

4. Ramirez lf ®

5. Varitek c (S)

6. Nixon rf (L)

7. Lowell 3b ®

8. Youkilis 1b ®

9. Gonzalez ss (L)

[jsinger121]

gonzalez is a right handed hitter

[yankeessuck013]

It had been reported that we would probably be getting Riske in the Coco-Marte/Mota deal...is that still the case?

 

I hope so because Marte is worth a lot and I would love to get Riske as an upgrade for Mota.

 

What happened to the 6 players changing hands?

[jsinger121]

i think they are still fighting over what players are changing hand. i wouldn't be surprised to see the red sox holding up this deal in order for the Guardians to include a prospect or 2 back to boston.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

who deserved it more than him?

 

and I could make a case jeter shouldnt of won his gold glove, cabrera should have.

Pudge easily could have gotten it over him. Also I dont give a crap about the gold glove. I didnt bring it up. Did Caberea have a better defensive season then Jeter? Maybe but I dont really care. RS tried to use the gold glove as a reason why Varitek is better then Posada when that award is more of a popularity contest then an award to honar the best defensive player at his position.

[riverside sluggers]

Pudge easily could have gotten it over him. Also I dont give a crap about the gold glove. I didnt bring it up. Did Caberea have a better defensive season then Jeter? Maybe but I dont really care. RS tried to use the gold glove as a reason why Varitek is better then Posada when that award is more of a popularity contest then an award to honar the best defensive player at his position.

 

well then the same should be said about Arod over Ortiz in the MVP award

[jimmycarter05]

i think they are still fighting over what players are changing hand. i wouldn't be surprised to see the red sox holding up this deal in order for the Guardians to include a prospect or 2 back to boston.

 

 

Thank God, a future All-Star and a Lights-Out Reliever for a Future All-Star CF didn't seem fair to me. We should get a B+ prospect and a Reliever with a ERA under 3.50.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Pudge easily could have gotten it over him. Also I dont give a crap about the gold glove. I didnt bring it up. Did Caberea have a better defensive season then Jeter? Maybe but I dont really care. RS tried to use the gold glove as a reason why Varitek is better then Posada when that award is more of a popularity contest then an award to honar the best defensive player at his position.

 

Jason Varitek is a better hitter, defender, and team leader than Jorge Posada...thats why he has an edge.

[yankeessuck013]

back to the trade:

 

Honestly, since Judas left, Crisp is by far the best option out there with the best upside and I've been rooting for it. If Marte turns into Bagwell, then I'll submit to being hung. He was a bargaining chip from the beginning.

 

I don't recall Bagwell ever refusing to play another postion even in imminent rumor. And Crisp is no Larry Anderson and up till now I don't think he's beaten his wife or had multiple DUI's. At least as reported. I think the guy turns into a star here with Mr. Ramirez and Mr. Ortiz.

 

Maybe Marte will be good one day in the majors, but for him to be a the #1 prospect a couple of years ago, and to put up the kind of stats he did at last years AAA, you really can't be sure about his progress(no wonder braves also gave up on him). Mota is a good reliever but CRISP is one of the best young players in the league. There was no doubt it was him, pheralta and Hafner that literally piggy backed the Guardians offense down the stretch.

 

It could be the steal of the century. It could be a bust. I'm leaning towards the former.

[schillingouttheks]

well then the same should be said about Arod over Ortiz in the MVP award

He probably understands that. He wasn't making a case for anyone with any special awards, he was just saying it as it is. He never said ARod deserved it over Papi, in fact, he never said ANYTHING about anyone deserving any end of the season awards. Especially any Yankees winning it over any Sox.

 

EDIT: Well, up until his next post he didn't make a case...

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

well then the same should be said about Arod over Ortiz in the MVP award

No, because A-Rod actually was the better player . When you own a 24 point OBP lead, hit more HR's, steal 20 more bases, score more runs and contribute to the defense rather then sit on your ass for half the game you are the better player. Then again I feel most of the MLB awards are popularity contests anyway. Its football time guys we can argue later .

[guapo34]

Thank God, a future All-Star and a Lights-Out Reliever for a Future All-Star CF didn't seem fair to me. We should get a B+ prospect and a Reliever with a ERA under 3.50.

 

In his last 100 innings Mota's ERA has been over 4.7. Calling him a lights-out reliever is a bit of a stretch. Maybe he regains his form, but maybe he doesn't. I'd say theres a better chance of Foulke being lights out. He has a much more proven track record than Mota, who was only really good for about a season and a half.

[yankeessuck013]

Giving up Marte is a shame but not unexpected but in Crisp we have a guy under contract till 2009 who could well become one of the games top leadoff men. Having a contact guy like Loretta behind him in the 2 hole means that the chances of having 150RBI seasons from Papi and Manny are looking quite good.

[a700hitter]

No, because A-Rod actually was the better player . When you own a 24 point OBP lead, hit more HR's, steal 20 more bases, score more runs and contribute to the defense rather then sit on your ass for half the game you are the better player. Then again I feel most of the MLB awards are popularity contests anyway. Its football time guys we can argue later .

Let's not forget his clutch play and walk-off homers. OH, that was Ortiz. Let's not forget ARod's clutch play like killing the yankees last hope of going to the ALCS by hitting into a DP in the 9th inning angainst the Angels or flubbing a one-hopper in a big spot. That's right, the post season doesn't count.

[Optimist]

Let's not forget his clutch play and walk-off homers. OH, that was Ortiz. Let's not forget ARod's clutch play like killing the yankees last hope of going to the ALCS by hitting into a DP in the 9th inning angainst the Angels or flubbing a one-hopper in a big spot. That's right, the post season doesn't count.

 

Ortiz should have won it because of all the post season games he won for the Sox in 2005...oh wait...

 

Anyways, back to the original topic of the thread...

 

It'll be interesting to see how all this unfolds on the field, instead of now when everyone's breaking out their crystal ball.

 

It is funny to see, though, how far fans (of any team) will go to try and convince themselves they have the best team...ever, in the history of sports.

[gosox613]

can people please stop complaining that coco crisp is a bad centerfielder and we dont need him! OUR OPTIONS ARE LOOKING PRETTY NARROW. agreed? good so stop bitching hes one of the best options out there and also keep in mind that prospects are never sure things

[schillingouttheks]

Uh, I don't see anyone bitching. I see people disappointed at losing Marte, but happy we got Crisp. Did you read?

[gosox613]

No, because A-Rod actually was the better player . When you own a 24 point OBP lead, hit more HR's, steal 20 more bases, score more runs and contribute to the defense rather then sit on your ass for half the game you are the better player. Then again I feel most of the MLB awards are popularity contests anyway. Its football time guys we can argue later .

value is not always derived from stats. value is getting hits that win the game for your team, not hrs in a game you're winning by like ten

[gosox613]

this deal sucks and better not happen

 

that "prospect" the Guardians would give us is supposedly either Brad Snyder, Ryan Garko and Jason Dubois

I'm sorry, but Crisp is not a good centerfielder, if the sox make this move its f***ing terrible. Its not O.K. its not just annoying, its not something a division title would make me forget about. Its f***ing terrible. Marte could be a gold gloving 40 homer threat under our control for the next 6 years. And you want to get Crisp for him? Coco Crisp? You're kidding me. He is a bad centerfielder who benefitted greatly from that move to left field. We don't need more offense, we're better off with a stop gap measure for this year, and search elsewhere for a more suitable long term replacement next year. Its the better solution. I'm sorry, this deal sucks. Not going to write anything happy about it or talk about it in depth, it sucks. We don't need a hitter, it'd be nice to get someone who could hit and play good D, but right now good D has to take priority. Why don't we just give them Papelbon and see if they can be gracious enough to give us Belliard and make an even bigger log jam for us at 2nd base. Oooh, I know, we can give them Marte, Lester and Papelbon and get Crisp, Belliard and Bob Wickman! That would be awesome. Nevermind guys, im happy now. The Red Sox were a lot more fun when they didn't have an excellent future lined up. Looking forward to 86 years of the Yankees s***ing on us is really just how it should be.

 

Crisp might eventually be able to out-hit Damon, but thats because Coco won't be getting a cortazone shot every 3 days and Crisp isn't a deteriorating 34 year old. Crisp is not going to be Damon. Damon, despite his horrible arm, was a good fielder. Crisp takes awful routes and has bad outfield instincts. This is horrible. I'm going to mourn.

 

Comparing dealing Renteria, instead of Marte, for Crisp is absurd. The Braves made a mistake in giving us Marte, they could have solved their hole at short, and at the closer position with him if they had waited on it. The acted out of need and sometimes thats bad. The Sox cannot act out of need right now. Despite how desparate a situation this may seem to be, if we finish 3rd in 06 with a stop gap CFer (which we won't BTW we will finish higher than that but just for the purpose of my arguement here) I would rather take that, than win the division and lessen our future. Forget it. Bad move. Post over. I'm going to sit in my bed cover my head with a pillow and cry. Thats right, cry.

I did read, shillingouttheks

[schillingouttheks]

That's 2 people. Riverside, myself, you, yankeessuck013, guapo, Sox Fan on Cape, we're all happy with it. Along with jsinger, ACL BoSox, SchillingIsTheNatural, and example1. I don't see where you get the idea that only bitching is being displayed. a700hitter too. Ok, AND KeepTheFaith

[a700hitter]

That's 2 people. Riverside, myself, you, yankeessuck013, guapo, Sox Fan on Cape, we're all happy with it.

Put me in the favorable category.

[gosox613]

ok but i can still say something about the people who got mad about it, geesh, thats being a bit picky

[schillingouttheks]

can people please stop complaining that coco crisp is a bad centerfielder and we dont need him! OUR OPTIONS ARE LOOKING PRETTY NARROW. agreed? good so stop bitching hes one of the best options out there and also keep in mind that prospects are never sure things

Well, a post like that to talk to 2 people in a sea of about 15 seems out of place.

[gosox613]

...why are you being so belligerent, how about we stay on topic and talk about the trade not your standards for my posts

[schillingouttheks]

...why are you being so belligerent, how about we stay on topic and talk about the trade not your standards for my posts

Sounds good.

 

I'm excited about this trade, I believe Crisp has much more upside than Johnny did at Crisp's current age. I tihnk his defense will be an upgrade, and he's going to be a bigger threat on hte basepaths. Who else thinks that in the long run, Crisp will be better?