Done to a Crisp and Gonzalez Too

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

double post

[schillingouttheks]

I will admit, some of the comparisons that say some Sox players are MUCH better than others is false. The only one I agree with is Manny is much better than Matsui.

[Beckett95]

I agree, Dotel was one of the most dominate set up men in the game for Billy Wagner in Houston. They moved him to closer and like alot of set up man gone closers they struggled. Now hes out of being a closer. There is huge upside for Dotel. As for him being ready Dotel said he would be ready in April. I think thats optomistic, I expect him back sometime in late May to June.

 

from rotoworld on dec. 29

 

Only nine days after he unofficially agreed to terms. Dotel hopes to return from Tommy John surgery in late April, but the Yankees can afford to be careful with him. It might be that he won't return to the majors until June or July.

 

Agree with you on him being back by late may or june. Dont rush him unless you really need help in the pen. We saw last year when the sox brought up Wade Miller earlier than planned. A month later he was back on the DL.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

from rotoworld on dec. 29

 

 

 

It would probably be smarter for the Yankees to wait untill june to bring him up. We saw last year when the sox brought up Wade Miller earlier than planned. A month later he was back on the DL.

Yeah, I expect the Yankees to be careful with him.

[WildThing58]

Shocked. Man i was looking foward to seeing andy develop into his potential. But i guess it's a good move seeing the sox fill a major hole. Plus Marte was doing bad in winter ball so hopefully he turns out to be a bust and the sox get a great deal. The way I look at it anyway is renteria/mota for crisp which is a good deal for the sox.

[BoSox21]

I've spent the last little while comparing Crisp and Damon and Crisp stacks up pretty well, especially considering he's 6 years younger and will be able $9 million cheaper

 

just like it far from the end of the world when we replaced Nomar with O-Cab, it probably won't be the end of the world replacing Damon with Crisp

[bigpappi2004]

I love this deal. Crisp is a great CF and I dont see all the hype about marte. no1 complained when hanley was traded y complain about marte

[jimmycarter05]

I love this deal. Crisp is a great CF and I dont see all the hype about marte. no1 complained when hanley was traded y complain about marte

 

 

Hey this is a forum, not an Instant Messaging conversation, please use complete words like no one and why instead of what you used.

[DirtDog]

Hey this is a forum, not an Instant Messaging conversation, please use complete words like no one and why instead of what you used.

 

stop whining

[jsinger121]

its been almost 18 hours since the herald said the deal was going to happen and no other media outlet has anything except people have picked up on the herald's story.

[guapo34]

The herald report states that the Red Sox and Guardians agreed in principle to the deal under the condition that the Guardians are able to trade for Jason Michaels. It said that deal "could be completed as soon as last night." but never said it was. Its very possible Massaroti is right and the Jason Michaels trade is whats holding it up.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

Yeah, but I read that if Cleveland can't get Michaels, they would get Davanon.

[Beckett95]

buster olney's lineup prediction for the sox

 

The Red Sox and Guardians have settled on a deal for Coco Crisp, writes Tony Massarotti, and will sign Alex Gonzalez to be their shortstop in 2006; the trade was expanded to involve the Phillies, as well. So with these two moves, the Boston lineup should look something like this in 2006:

 

CF Crisp

2B Mark Loretta

DH David Ortiz

LF Manny Ramirez

C Jason Varitek

RF Trot Nixon

3B Mike Lowell

1B J.T. Snow/Kevin Youkilis

SS Alex Gonzalez

 

The Red Sox should be better defensively, but they could take a significant step backward offensively -- Crisp's performance, in the high pressure of Boston, is going to be enormously important -- and the pitching could be very good or good, depending on the relative health and performances of Curt Schilling, Keith Foulke and Josh Beckett.

 

[jsinger121]

Depending on how right-hander Guillermo Mota's physical goes, Coco Crisp could be Boston's new center fielder sometime this week.The Guardians and Boston, according to a major league source, are considering a six-player trade that would send Crisp and two low-level minor leaguers to Boston for third base prospect Andy Marte, Mota and another a minor league pitcher. The Guardians would then trade Mota to Philadelphia for outfielder Jason Michaels.There's also a chance that the Guardians could keep Mota, if he passes his physical, and send David Riske or Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies. If Mota doesn't pass the Guardians and Phillies physical, the three-team deal could be scrubbed.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_plaindealer/archives/2006_01.html#106958

[example1]

I agree, Dotel was one of the most dominate set up men in the game for Billy Wagner in Houston. They moved him to closer and like alot of set up man gone closers they struggled. Now hes out of being a closer. There is huge upside for Dotel. As for him being ready Dotel said he would be ready in April. I think thats optomistic, I expect him back sometime in late May to June.

 

Dotel has great stuff. He's a headcase, but he has better stuff than Tavarez. I would rather have Tavarez in his role for the Red Sox than Dotel in his role for the yankees though. Dotel will be under more pressure I think, as the Sox have Foulke, Timlin and possibly Seanez who would pitch in more important situations than Tavarez. The Yankees have Farnsworth, that's true, but he seems a guy who will fold or lose control when the Yankees need it least.

 

Tavarez is the king headcase, but I think its harder to get into his head as an opposing team than it is with Dotel. They are the same age, yet Tavarez has thrown 400 more innings in his career. He seems more consistent and has taken a Timlin like role for St. Louis the past few years.

 

IMO, both Dotel and Farnsworth are a step down from Tom Gordon the past few years. Its good for the Yanks that they have them, don't get me wrong, but Tom Gordon was experienced and had pretty good stuff. He also had proved that he could handle that situation working with Mo.

 

What it comes down to though, is that there hasn't been a single bullpen that has worried me as a Sox fan the past few years. That is up to and including Mariano Rivera. The most successful pitching against the sox has been starters, the first 2.5 times through the batting order, particularly guys who the sox hadn't seen very often, and guys like Lilly, Lopez, and Kasmir.

 

Both the sox and the yanks have significantly improved their pens depth-wise. We'll have to see how it works out in the end.

[Beckett95]

hmmm, wonder who the two "low-level minor leaguers are" and what minor league pitcher were giving up.

 

im guessing we give up Randy Beam and we get Nick Pesco and Matt Whitney.

 

Just a guess...

[example1]

I've spent the last little while comparing Crisp and Damon and Crisp stacks up pretty well, especially considering he's 6 years younger and will be able $9 million cheaper

 

just like it far from the end of the world when we replaced Nomar with O-Cab, it probably won't be the end of the world replacing Damon with Crisp

 

Anything in particular that stood out to you in your analysis of their relative value to the sox? Just curious.

[Beckett95]

Depending on how right-hander Guillermo Mota's physical goes, Coco Crisp could be Boston's new center fielder sometime this week.The Guardians and Boston, according to a major league source, are considering a six-player trade that would send Crisp and two low-level minor leaguers to Boston for third base prospect Andy Marte, Mota and another a minor league pitcher. The Guardians would then trade Mota to Philadelphia for outfielder Jason Michaels. There's also a chance that the Guardians could keep Mota, if he passes his physical, and send David Riske or Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies. If Mota doesn't pass the Guardians and Phillies physical, the three-team deal could be scrubbed.

 

why not just deal mota for michaels?? He's a solid CF who doesnt get enough playing time in philly who really could be a good player. And the biggest part of this, WE KEEP OUR BEST PROSPECT.

 

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2005/11/center_fielders.html

[ksushi]

Well, this is awful. Still upset. There was a blurb about how the Guardians are going to flip Mota for Michaels, and I think that sucks. The Sox are getting slapped in the face. If you can trade Mota for Michaels, Michaels being ~-10 runs defensively and Crips being ~+4, you do it. Crisp sucks at defense. This trade sucks. In 300 fewer at bats Michaels had more than comporable numbers, this is crap. The sox are getting beat up. And not to mention the sox might be kicking in another prospect to get in return to "low level" prospects. I don't know what they mean by low level, but with the kind of Front Office Rape the Guardians are laying on us right now, low level better mean 2 great prospects who are in a low level of the minor league system, as a opposed to crappy players.

 

Either way, this sucks. All of this crap is pending on Mota passing or failing his physical. I hope he fails. We're trading our best prospect since Nomah for Coco f***ing Crisp. Joke. Absolutley a joke.

[Beckett95]

Well, this is awful. Still upset. There was a blurb about how the Guardians are going to flip Mota for Michaels, and I think that sucks. The Sox are getting slapped in the face. If you can trade Mota for Michaels, Michaels being ~-10 runs defensively and Crips being ~+4, you do it. Crisp sucks at defense. This trade sucks. In 300 fewer at bats Michaels had more than comporable numbers, this is crap. The sox are getting beat up. And not to mention the sox might be kicking in another prospect to get in return to "low level" prospects. I don't know what they mean by low level, but with the kind of Front Office Rape the Guardians are laying on us right now, low level better mean 2 great prospects who are in a low level of the minor league system, as a opposed to crappy players.

 

Either way, this sucks. All of this crap is pending on Mota passing or failing his physical. I hope he fails. We're trading our best prospect since Nomah for Coco f***ing Crisp. Joke. Absolutley a joke.

 

Absolutely agree with you. I think Michaels and Crisp are about the same talent wise. Its just that Michaels only gets 300 AB's a year. Michaels also has a MUCH better OBP than crisp. Crisp's career obp is .332 while michaels is .380. The fact the Guardians are getting michaels for just mota sucks.

 

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/phi/stats/phi_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=346859

 

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2005/11/center_fielders.html

 

hes a better 1-2 hitter than crisp and a better fielder with a good arm.

 

Ive been hearing all along the in order to get michaels, we'd have to trade arroyo and mota. If we could have gotten him for just mota, that is horrible on the front offices part.

[riverside sluggers]

why not just deal mota for michaels?? He's a solid CF who doesnt get enough playing time in philly who really could be a good player. And the biggest part of this, WE KEEP OUR BEST PROSPECT.

 

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2005/11/center_fielders.html

 

I think its plausible to note that the Phillies like any other team wouldve asked more than Mota to deal Michaels to Boston.

[Beckett95]

then how could the Guardians get michaels for just Mota or another decent reliever???

 

Depending on how right-hander Guillermo Mota's physical goes, Coco Crisp could be Boston's new center fielder sometime this week.The Guardians and Boston, according to a major league source, are considering a six-player trade that would send Crisp and two low-level minor leaguers to Boston for third base prospect Andy Marte, Mota and another a minor league pitcher. The Guardians would then trade Mota to Philadelphia for outfielder Jason Michaels. There's also a chance that the Guardians could keep Mota, if he passes his physical, and send David Riske or Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies. If Mota doesn't pass the Guardians and Phillies physical, the three-team deal could be scrubbed.

[riverside sluggers]

yes i know ive seen that post from rotoworld 3 or 4 times in this thread alone.

 

At this time last week, Boston was in a hell of a mess more than Cleveland was, who had all holes filled by the winter meetings. Remember Tampa asking for Marte and even Papelbon/Lester for Lugo? Seattle stepping up request of Papelbon or Lester for Reed? Baltimore asking for Lester or Papelbon to go along with Manny? Teams knew Boston were in a fix and tried to get the best of them, a la Cleveland

[example1]

then how could the Guardians get michaels for just Mota or another decent reliever???

 

Perhaps you missed the fact that everyone one this board acknowledges that they don't know what the deal is, ultimately. We don't know who is going where, which players are changing hands; particularly not the minor leaguers. Let's not rush to judgment yet.

 

If the Sox get back a few other good prospects, or if the Guardians have to give up one of their top pitching prospects with Mota to get Michaels then you won't be complaining. Just wait instead of assuming that the Sox are stupid. if they could have gotten Michaels for Mota, they would have gotten Michaels for Mota. Period. Why even debate or question that?

[ksushi]

The Guardians are in the same position of need after a Crisp deal with even more stocked young talent. Thats bunk. If the Sox don't pull the trigger on Mota for Michaels they have made a blatent mistake trading away our best position player prospect (one of the best in all of baseball) for a CFer of less value than that of Michaels who we could get without dealing the prospect. The Renteria deal started as a three way and then the sox just cut to the chase with the Braves. I hope this happens here.

 

Crisp sucks.

 

That is all.

 

I'm not saying the Sox are stupid, we might be in the dark about something here, but with the facts we have now, it doesn't add up. I completely agree with presuming the sox front office to be smart until proven stupid. someone posted that somewhere, its a good quote.

[yankeessuck013]

wow ksushi seriously calm down....crisp is a good player, deal with it.

[jsinger121]

crisp is a good player but i wouldn't trade marte for him.

[KeepTheFaith1229]

It depends on the prospects. If we could have gotten Michaels for Mota straight up, than we're getting jumped here.

[Beckett95]

all we know is the Guardians, who will be in need of LF after dealing Crisp, will trade Mota, Rhodes or Riske to Phil. for Michaels.

 

Mota, Seanez, Tavarez = Mota, Riske, Rhodes

 

Crisp = Michaels

 

crisp career totals = .287 avg, .332 obp, .424 slug%, .755 ops, .986 fielding % (185 games in CF), 2.360 RF and a .887 ZR

 

michaels career totals = .291 avg, .380 obp, .442 slug%, .822 ops, .984 fielding % (140 games in CF), 2.490 RF and a .867 ZR

 

doesnt make sense at all

[guapo34]

Crisp is a better player than Michaels. It sucks if we trade Marte, but that was the price of Crisp.

Michaels plays in one of the most hitter friendly parks in baseball while Crisp plays in one of hte most pitcher friendly. Look at both hitters road numbers and tell me Michales is the much better player and Crisp sucks.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=4653 Michaels

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5299 Coco