Red Sox all alone with worst record again

[Hitch]

19 hours ago, notin said:

Tolle should be in the bullpen NOW.  
 

I get he has more value as a starter, but the Sox have 7 starters under contract this season.  Only two can leave after.  But even once they go, Kyson Witherspoon and Juan Valera and others keep getting closer to MLB.

Tolle can pitch relief now.  Boston needs someone that can.  This should have already happened…

Absolutely not. 

You don't f*** around with your best starting pitching prospect so you can get some help in the pen. 

[notin]

3 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Absolutely not. 

You don't f*** around with your best starting pitching prospect so you can get some help in the pen. 

Really?

Plenty of top pitching prospects have started their MLB careers out that way, including Johan Santana, Chris Sale, Adam Wainwright, Pedro Martínez, David Price, Max Scherzer, etc.

 

[Hitch]

Just now, notin said:

Really?

Plenty of top pitching prospects have started their MLB careers out that way, including Johan Santana, Chris Sale, Adam Wainwright, Pedro Martínez, David Price, Max Scherzer, etc.

 

Yes really. He's got a tonne of stuff he needs to work on to still become what we need him to be. Let him work on those things. 

[notin]

18 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Yes really. He's got a tonne of stuff he needs to work on to still become what we need him to be. Let him work on those things. 

Don’t forget the Sox have already 1) added him to the 40 man roster 2) called him up to the bullpen before so that ship has actually already sailed, and 3) as I already said, it’s hardly an unblazed trail, with plenty of successful starting pitchers beginning their career as relievers.

There are some benefits.  Shorter, more frequent outings let him bounce back from bad ones quickly, ample opportunities to work on secondary pitches against actual MLB hitters.  There are several MLB teams that use the bullpen as a starting point for most of their best starting pitching prospects, notably the Dodgers.  But what do they know?

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

I think Tolle's career is more important than April/May 2026. Breslow just needs to cycle through some depth options. 

I do worry about messing him up, but I'm not one to think this kind of call-up in dangerous to a young pitcher's growth.

[mvp 78]

36 minutes ago, notin said:

There are several MLB teams that use the bullpen as a starting point for most of their best starting pitching prospects, notably the Dodgers.  But what do they know?

Which recent pitching prospects did they do this for?

Bobby Miller? 

Gavin Stone? 

Landon Knack? 

[mvp 78]

12 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I do worry about messing him up, but I'm not one to think this kind of call-up in dangerous to a young pitcher's growth.

In AAA, he can spend a whole start just throwing his secondaries because it doesn't matter. 

[moonslav59]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

In AAA, he can spend a whole start just throwing his secondaries because it doesn't matter. 

Yes, that is a major plus for that choice.

I am aware of the advantages and disadvantages. It's a close call, to me.

[notin]

27 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Which recent pitching prospects did they do this for?

Bobby Miller? 

Gavin Stone? 

Landon Knack? 

I was thinking Casperius and Pepiot, but Knack and Stone work, too.

Miller never pitched a relief inning in MLB.  And it hasn’t exactly worked out. 
 

But now you’re focusing on the minutiae despite there being a very solid proven track record for this path.  What’s the track record for AAA pitchers already on the 40 man without secondary pitches?  Is reliever really such a bad option in today’s bullpen-oriented game?  The. Sox tried to bleed value out of Whitlock by making him a starter with negative results.  Houck was successfully converted, but is also out for the year (and potentially clogs up Tolle’s future in the rotation).  Maybe Tolle really is best used as a high leverage reliever?

[mvp 78]

6 minutes ago, notin said:

I was thinking Casperius and Pepiot, but Knack and Stone work, too.

Miller never pitched a relief inning in MLB.  And it hasn’t exactly worked out. 
 

But now you’re focusing on the minutiae despite there being a very solid proven track record for this path.  What’s the track record for AAA pitchers already on the 40 man without secondary pitches?  Is reliever really such a bad option in today’s bullpen-oriented game?  The. Sox tried to bleed value out of Whitlock by making him a starter with negative results.  Houck was successfully converted, but is also out for the year (and potentially clogs up Tolle’s future in the rotation).  Maybe Tolle really is best used as a high leverage reliever?

That path? 

Pepiot:

'22: 9 G, 7 GS

'23: 8 G, 3 GS

I don't think you're advocating for Tolle to be in the bullpen for just 5 outings here. Also, the Dodgers have had far more success bringing in starting rotation guys from outside the org than developing their own. They have a lot of young pitchers, but which of those guys are anchoring their rotation? Which of those guys are anchoring someone else's rotation? It just doesn't seem like the Dodgers are a path of success that everyone should be following here. If anything, they blow through a lot of young arms! 

[Hitch]

1 hour ago, notin said:

Don’t forget the Sox have already 1) added him to the 40 man roster 2) called him up to the bullpen before so that ship has actually already sailed, and 3) as I already said, it’s hardly an unblazed trail, with plenty of successful starting pitchers beginning their career as relievers.

There are some benefits.  Shorter, more frequent outings let him bounce back from bad ones quickly, ample opportunities to work on secondary pitches against actual MLB hitters.  There are several MLB teams that use the bullpen as a starting point for most of their best starting pitching prospects, notably the Dodgers.  But what do they know?

Those benefits are far outweighed by the benefit of actually spending time working on the pitches he still needs to develop to become the top line starter we hope. He has a lot of development left to do. 

We can get pen help from numerous places if need be. Disrupting the schedule of our best prospect is not one of them. 

Thankfully, the FO see it the same way. 

[notin]

6 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

That path? 

Pepiot:

'22: 9 G, 7 GS

'23: 8 G, 3 GS

I don't think you're advocating for Tolle to be in the bullpen for just 5 outings here. Also, the Dodgers have had far more success bringing in starting rotation guys from outside the org than developing their own. They have a lot of young pitchers, but which of those guys are anchoring their rotation? Which of those guys are anchoring someone else's rotation? It just doesn't seem like the Dodgers are a path of success that everyone should be following here. If anything, they blow through a lot of young arms! 

If you don’t like the relevance of the Dodgers here, that doesn’t change that it has been a successful career path for numerous very successful pitchers.

And again, there’s still a lot of potential benefit if Tolle stays in the bullpen.  Whereas there is very little if Zack Kelly does, and the less said about Tayron Guerrero the better…

[mvp 78]

5 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Those benefits are far outweighed by the benefit of actually spending time working on the pitches he still needs to develop to become the top line starter we hope. He has a lot of development left to do. 

We can get pen help from numerous places if need be. Disrupting the schedule of our best prospect is not one of them. 

Thankfully, the FO see it the same way. 

They'll keep him down until they get the extra option year. They probably move Early back to AAA at some point too. His velo is down and his WHIP too much of a tightrope walk early on this year to keep his pitch count where it needs to be.

[Hitch]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

They'll keep him down until they get the extra option year. They probably move Early back to AAA at some point too. His velo is down and his WHIP too much of a tightrope walk early on this year to keep his pitch count where it needs to be.

I see it the same way, assuming Crawford and Sandoval end up in a good place. 

[mvp 78]

24 minutes ago, Hitch said:

I see it the same way, assuming Crawford and Sandoval end up in a good place. 

No matter what, they are going to find an excuse to get an extra year out of Early. He only has to be in AAA for a few weeks. They'll send him down for exhaustion or something at the very least. Even just swap him out for Tolle for a few turns. 

[notin]

22 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

No matter what, they are going to find an excuse to get an extra year out of Early. He only has to be in AAA for a few weeks. They'll send him down for exhaustion or something at the very least. Even just swap him out for Tolle for a few turns. 

Or extend him…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Trying to remember any Red Sox pitchers who were strictly relievers when drafted and made it. Two that were supposedly MLB ready right out of college were Craig Hansen and Cla Meredith... seems like there was another more recently?

But most pitching prospects bounce back and forth initially, especially since anyone should be willing to do whatever it takes to get to The Show and stay there. Some even embrace change, like Papelbon, the best closer in Boston history.

Last year Tolle was the best starting pitching prospect the Sox have had in a long time. Now, who knows -- Eyanson is already lights out at low A, and he was rated below Early, Witherspoon, Valera and Phillips.

[drewski6]

3 hours ago, notin said:

Really?

Plenty of top pitching prospects have started their MLB careers out that way, including Johan Santana, Chris Sale, Adam Wainwright, Pedro Martínez, David Price, Max Scherzer, etc.

 

Crochet.

[JoeBrady]

4 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

I think Tolle's career is more important than April/May 2026. Breslow just needs to cycle through some depth options. 

I agree.  Tolle could be really good.  Don't try to shortcut it just because we need a 5th lefty in the BP.

[JoeBrady]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

No matter what, they are going to find an excuse to get an extra year out of Early. He only has to be in AAA for a few weeks. They'll send him down for exhaustion or something at the very least. Even just swap him out for Tolle for a few turns. 

I don't think that applies to guys like Early.  You play the service for future stars.  I like Early well enough, but I'll be happy with 6 years of being a #3.  I see no compelling reason to jerk him around just because you think he might become a highly-paid FA in 3032.

[JoeBrady]

2 hours ago, Hitch said:

Those benefits are far outweighed by the benefit of actually spending time working on the pitches he still needs to develop to become the top line starter we hope. He has a lot of development left to do. 

We can get pen help from numerous places if need be. Disrupting the schedule of our best prospect is not one of them. 

Thankfully, the FO see it the same way. 

I'd be shocked if they promoted him.

And I'll give you another reason not to.  There is a decent chance that we will lose a pitcher to injury, or to under-performance.  Or maybe shut down Early early for innings.  I'd make a small wager that we'll be looking to realign our rotation in August, maybe looking for that #4 playoff starter.

I still doubt Tolle will be ready in August, but that might be one of those moves that energize the team down the stretch.

[Kimmi]

On 4/2/2026 at 11:40 AM, harmony said:

The Red Sox should be in contention come September.

I really don't have the energy to continually defend my beloved team against the naysayers, but suffice it to say, that I am fully confident that the Red Sox will be playing playoff baseball come October, despite the 1-5 start and the current .400 winning percentage.  Dare I say that the Red Sox might still even win the division.

This will be my opinion until otherwise stated.

[JoeBrady]

2 minutes ago, Kimmi said:

I really don't have the energy to continually defend my beloved team against the naysayers, but suffice it to say, that I am fully confident that the Red Sox will be playing playoff baseball come October, despite the 1-5 start and the current .400 winning percentage.  Dare I say that the Red Sox might still even win the division.

This will be my opinion until otherwise stated.

I'd still wager that the RS make the playoffs.

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Hitch said:

Thankfully, the FO see it the same way. 

For now, yes, but they saw it the other way, last year, when he was farther behind on the progress climb.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, drewski6 said:

Crochet.

Gotta hate how that destroyed his development time and career.

[drewski6]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Gotta hate how that destroyed his development time and career.

Im of the belief that its actually quite hard to ruin talent.  I think in most cases its fans trying to blame anyone else other than someone they invested in emotionally.  "HOW DARE YOU SAY MY MAN CRUSH IS A BUST! GRANTED HE WAS A TOP PROSPECT WHO IS NOW 29 WITH A .189 CAREER BA, BUT I BLAME.....THE MANAGER"

[Kimmi]

14 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

I'd still wager that the RS make the playoffs.

This is why I like you, JoeB.

[mvp 78]

2 hours ago, notin said:

Or extend him…

He's already been called up, not sure what'd they'd be still waiting for. 

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, drewski6 said:

Crochet.

Yes, the Red Sox should start developing talent the way the White Sox do. When did that TJS come into play for Crochet? 

[mvp 78]

1 hour ago, JoeBrady said:

I don't think that applies to guys like Early.  You play the service for future stars.  I like Early well enough, but I'll be happy with 6 years of being a #3.  I see no compelling reason to jerk him around just because you think he might become a highly-paid FA in 3032.

It's not jerking around if the guy has never topped 120 innings before. He's going to need a break at some point.