Boston Red Sox Interested In Devin Williams

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, notin said:

I drank my ten best hitters differently, using 3 year sample sizes and prefer wOBA or wRC.  On those rankings, one name in the top ten is Ketel Marte, whom I’ve been mentioning as a good target since before reports Arizona would make him available.

Also he can play a position of need, unlike Schwarber.  And Yoshida is already here and likely isn’t going anywhere, so it’s hardly a stretch to assume he’s the DH again…

Getting Marte would count for a lot.  If that happens, I will find you and high five you.  But Im not super optimistic hes actually available, and Schwarber is just sitting there.  Yoshida isnt useless but if Marte isnt available, we shouldnt let his 36m stop us from getting the best bat available when we need said bat.

Put Masa in the OF if you have to , I dont care.  But we simply cannot be fine with not adding very good hitting.  Well we could be, but we'd be letting them off the hook.

[notin]

11 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Correct, those of us that see a team with no elite hitters, and one sitting there in free agency (Schwarber) are likely going to be more disappointed than someone fine with a team that has 0 top 50 hitters from last year.

Schwarber or we riot.

Sounds like a riot.  Do you really think Schwarber leaves Philly?  

[notin]

11 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Getting Marte would count for a lot.  If that happens, I will find you and high five you.  But Im not super optimistic hes actually available, and Schwarber is just sitting there.  Yoshida isnt useless but if Marte isnt available, we shouldnt let his 36m stop us from getting the best bat available when we need said bat.

Put Masa in the OF if you have to , I dont care.  But we simply cannot be fine with not adding very good hitting.  Well we could be, but we'd be letting them off the hook.

Letting them off the hook?

They’ll do what they do without input from this forum no one in the Sox FO even knows exists.  If they don’t meet the demands of TalkSox, how exactly do we hold them accountable? I love 1000 miles away, so boycotting attending games is hardly a threat.

Per Google, it’s actually 1000.7 miles from my house to Fenway.  So I’m even further than I thought!

[drewski6]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

Sounds like a riot.  Do you really think Schwarber leaves Philly?  

Ive heard that so many times when the player ultimately left.

[notin]

3 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Ive heard that so many times when the player ultimately left.

From a top five payroll?  And a GM who hates upper spending limits?

[drewski6]

Just now, notin said:

Letting them off the hook?

They’ll do what they do without input from this forum no one in the Sox FO even knows exists.  If they don’t meet the demands of TalkSox, how exactly do we hold them accountable? I love 1000 miles away, so boycotting attending games is hardly a threat…

Understand none of us (even collectively) hold a ton of power here.  I get that.  But watching the team not go after elite talent despite not winnning a playoff series in 6 years is worthy of being frustrated.  And but we have 36m committed to yoshida is a lousy excuse.  Play yoshida in the field if you cant waste that money.  But get dangerous hitters. I assure you yoshida isnt scaring anybody. And a red sox lineup that has him as a top 4 hitter isnt scaring anybody.

Yoshida is fine as a guy hitting 6th or 7th in your lineup. Id be fine with him at DH if we had a very good hitting 1 - 5.  And if we dont have that, we should be trying to get it.  NOt looking at all our players through an overly optimistic lens because breslow and henry have better things to do with their weekend than fix our offense.

[drewski6]

Just now, notin said:

From a top five payroll?  And a GM who hates upper spending limits?

yes, in all cases.  Theres plenty of people who nobody expected to leave and did.

Even so, theres a difference between going after Schwarber and failing to convince him and losing out than just being okay with a lineup where nobody has an. 850 OPS.

Its the mindset.  When do we get to say enough with the mediocrity?

[Duran Is The Man]

23 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Understand none of us (even collectively) hold a ton of power here.  I get that.  But watching the team not go after elite talent despite not winnning a playoff series in 6 years is worthy of being frustrated.  And but we have 36m committed to yoshida is a lousy excuse.  Play yoshida in the field if you cant waste that money.  But get dangerous hitters. I assure you yoshida isnt scaring anybody. And a red sox lineup that has him as a top 4 hitter isnt scaring anybody.

Yoshida is fine as a guy hitting 6th or 7th in your lineup. Id be fine with him at DH if we had a very good hitting 1 - 5.  And if we dont have that, we should be trying to get it.  NOt looking at all our players through an overly optimistic lens because breslow and henry have better things to do with their weekend than fix our offense.

you mean an offense with Romy, Eaton, Hamilton, Yoshida and Wong doesn't do it for you? 

[moonslav59]

If you go by fangraphs "Offense"

6. Schwarber

15 Tucker

16 Alonso

23 K Marte

26 Y Diaz

(27 Devers)

33 Bichette

39 Naylor

40 Bellinger

41 Polanco

52 O'Hearn

(56 Duran) The guy many of us suggest trading away for an arm.

57 Suarez

(59 Anthony in a half season)

wRC+

9 Schwarber

12 K Marte

13 Alonso

15 Anthony

26 Tucker

27 Devers, 29 Diaz, 30 Bichette. 35 Polanco

43 Naylor, 45 O'Hearn, 49 Bregman

51 bellinger, 53 Suarez

[drewski6]

9 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

you mean an offense with Romy, Eaton, Hamilton, Yoshida and Wong doesn't do it for you? 

I could even be okay with that if the other 4 are very good hitters.  But if they are cedanne and mayer and story and abreu, thats not good enoug hto overcome teh noodlebat 5 that youve presented.

You are the man, btw. I enjoy your takes.

[moonslav59]

Bats

Schwaber needs to be target #1. Deal with the DH jam afterwards.

Alonso is a clear #2, IMO. Sure, he and Casas suck on D, but if we don't get #1, one can DH at some point.

(Tucker plays OF and is too expensive.)

Big gap....

#3 KMarte may cost too much, but kick the tires, even if we gat #1 or #2.

Big gap...

Bichette, Polanco, Suarez, Bregman (I'd love to get a #1-3 plus one of these. Two of these might be enough, but...)

 

[JoeBrady]

11 hours ago, Old Red said:

I agree the BP is down the list, but I don’t think you can count on Chapman having the year he had last year again.

If you can't count on Chapman, how could you possibly count on Williams?

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, JoeBrady said:

If you can't count on Chapman, how could you possibly count on Williams?

Post of the Month.

[Old Red]

1 hour ago, JoeBrady said:

If you can't count on Chapman, how could you possibly count on Williams?

All I said was that you can’t count on Chapman to have a year as good as he had last year, and that as in past years with all the injuries the Red Sox have had they can always use more help in the backend of the BP. 

[moonslav59]

Sign Alonso, Merrill Kelly, Matz & Refsnyder

Trade Duran, Campbell & Crawford for K Marte

1. L Anthony LF

2. S Marte 2B

3. L Abreu RF/R Story SS

4. R Alonso 1B

5. R Story SS/L Abreu RF

6. L Yoshida DH/ R Refsnyder DH

7. L Mayer 3B/ R Romy 3B

8. R Narvaez C

9. R Rafaela CF

Bench: Wong, Romy, Refsnyder, Sogard/DHam

SP: Crochet, Kelly, Bello, 2 from Sandoval, Dobbins, Harrison, Early, Tolle, Perales

RP: Chapman, Whitlock, Slaten, Matz, Weissert, Fitts, Bernardino1 from Hicks, Murphy, Moran, Criswell, Wink, Kelly, Sandlin

[JoeBrady]

54 minutes ago, Old Red said:

All I said was that you can’t count on Chapman to have a year as good as he had last year, and that as in past years with all the injuries the Red Sox have had they can always use more help in the backend of the BP. 

That's what Whitlock is for.  Every closer has some risk.  If they go down, you go to #2.

[JoeBrady]

37 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Sign Alonso, Merrill Kelly, Matz & Refsnyder

Trade Duran, Campbell & Crawford for K Marte

1. L Anthony LF

2. S Marte 2B

3. L Abreu RF/R Story SS

4. R Alonso 1B

5. R Story SS/L Abreu RF

6. L Yoshida DH/ R Refsnyder DH

7. L Mayer 3B/ R Romy 3B

8. R Narvaez C

9. R Rafaela CF

Bench: Wong, Romy, Refsnyder, Sogard/DHam

SP: Crochet, Kelly, Bello, 2 from Sandoval, Dobbins, Harrison, Early, Tolle, Perales

RP: Chapman, Whitlock, Slaten, Matz, Weissert, Fitts, Bernardino1 from Hicks, Murphy, Moran, Criswell, Wink, Kelly, Sandlin

I would add Tolle to the BP to break in.  And I don't think Kelly is good enough to be our #2.

[Hitch]

15 hours ago, drewski6 said:

Understand none of us (even collectively) hold a ton of power here.  I get that.  But watching the team not go after elite talent despite not winnning a playoff series in 6 years is worthy of being frustrated.  And but we have 36m committed to yoshida is a lousy excuse.  Play yoshida in the field if you cant waste that money.  But get dangerous hitters. I assure you yoshida isnt scaring anybody. And a red sox lineup that has him as a top 4 hitter isnt scaring anybody.

Yoshida is fine as a guy hitting 6th or 7th in your lineup. Id be fine with him at DH if we had a very good hitting 1 - 5.  And if we dont have that, we should be trying to get it.  NOt looking at all our players through an overly optimistic lens because breslow and henry have better things to do with their weekend than fix our offense.

These things don't exist in a vacuum. If you play Yoshida in LF (the only position you can) you then can't play two of Duran, Abreu, Rafaela, and Anthony, with Schwarber DH'ing (I assume you've traded one). So our our athleticism has just taken a massive hit, and so has our defence. In the meantime we've added a lot of payroll. 

Now, we still need two middle infielders and (another power bat) and a number 2. How are we affording all this? Because I think it's fair to say that if we'll be spending way over limit 1 there is no good way to call the ownership cheap, and yet this is all going to cost a lot more than that (probably the higher levels of limit 2, going into 3). You could say that we don't then get two infielders, just one, but that means an often injured Mayer and a limited Romy rocking up as every-dayers with Sogard and Hamilton as the back ups. Yikes. 

But say we pull off the 3 big offence signings, (say Schwarber, Bregman and Alonso as well as a #2) we essentially have 3 DH's on the roster already with Massa, Schwarber and Alonso/Casas, and you can add Bregman to it in two years too. With Massa gone it's still 3 DH's (Schwarber, Alonso/Casas and Bregman) with 3 of them being forced to play the field at all times which would hurt us badly just because we wanted Schwarber while sticking our fingers in our ears. Plus it'll screw the next team we need to build.

Having Schwarber would be great in an ideal world (say 4 years ago), but roster building needs to make sense. He was sensational last year, yet hardly anyone bar the Phillies and possibly us (and I believe that is only if we can make the roster work - IE get Masa out of town) are in on him. There's a reason the Yankees or the Dodgers are not going hard for him. Because it doesn't make sense for their roster, despite how good he is.

Unfortunately, it makes little sense for ours right now, because we're stuck with an overpaid, light-hitting DH we can't shift. And with the holes in our roster that $18m is a lot.

Hopefully we can pull magic from a bottle. Until then, we need to make moves that make sense to our roster, not fantasy baseball.

[mvp 78]

18 hours ago, drewski6 said:

3rd place liklely gets into playoffs as wild card. Not a serious contender.

(Im not disagreeing with you that this is one of the most likely scenarios, and Im not even suggesting that this would be a terrible season)

But when do we get to say, you guys have been avoiding top hitters for the last 6 years, we want one. Ever? Do we ever get to say: I want a top 10 hitter in baseball?

Or is it just about getting solid-average players at every positions?

Moon isnt letting them off the hook and neither am I.  Give me elite players.

WE don't get a say. Until people start bullying JH again, we'll get our slop and have to like it.

[drewski6]

2 hours ago, Hitch said:

These things don't exist in a vacuum. If you play Yoshida in LF (the only position you can) you then can't play two of Duran, Abreu, Rafaela, and Anthony, with Schwarber DH'ing (I assume you've traded one). So our our athleticism has just taken a massive hit, and so has our defence. In the meantime we've added a lot of payroll. 

Now, we still need two middle infielders and (another power bat) and a number 2. How are we affording all this? Because I think it's fair to say that if we'll be spending way over limit 1 there is no good way to call the ownership cheap, and yet this is all going to cost a lot more than that (probably the higher levels of limit 2, going into 3). You could say that we don't then get two infielders, just one, but that means an often injured Mayer and a limited Romy rocking up as every-dayers with Sogard and Hamilton as the back ups. Yikes. 

But say we pull off the 3 big offence signings, (say Schwarber, Bregman and Alonso as well as a #2) we essentially have 3 DH's on the roster already with Massa, Schwarber and Alonso/Casas, and you can add Bregman to it in two years too. With Massa gone it's still 3 DH's (Schwarber, Alonso/Casas and Bregman) with 3 of them being forced to play the field at all times which would hurt us badly just because we wanted Schwarber while sticking our fingers in our ears. Plus it'll screw the next team we need to build.

Having Schwarber would be great in an ideal world (say 4 years ago), but roster building needs to make sense. He was sensational last year, yet hardly anyone bar the Phillies and possibly us (and I believe that is only if we can make the roster work - IE get Masa out of town) are in on him. There's a reason the Yankees or the Dodgers are not going hard for him. Because it doesn't make sense for their roster, despite how good he is.

Unfortunately, it makes little sense for ours right now, because we're stuck with an overpaid, light-hitting DH we can't shift. And with the holes in our roster that $18m is a lot.

Hopefully we can pull magic from a bottle. Until then, we need to make moves that make sense to our roster, not fantasy baseball.

We dont have a single player that was a top 50 hitter in baseball last year. Not one.  Passing on the number 6 hitter in baseball because of a 2 yr commitment to an underachieving player is small market operations.  It would essentially be passing on a hitter that transforms our entire lineup to suck any juice out of a bad investment.  I dont hate Yoshida, but he simply shouldnt get in the way here.  Otherwise, we are letting ownership and GMs just continue with what they've been "we cant add until we shed" and this approach has led to more last place finishes than playoff series wins in recent years.

When you dont have a top 50 hitter in baseball, and a top 10 hitter is sitting there in free agency, thats all the fit you need.  RA + schwarber + one more solid bat hides a lot of offensive holes and we'll surely have at least a couple.

[Old Red]

18 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

We dont have a single player that was a top 50 hitter in baseball last year. Not one.  Passing on the number 6 hitter in baseball because of a 2 yr commitment to an underachieving player is small market operations.  It would essentially be passing on a hitter that transforms our entire lineup to suck any juice out of a bad investment.  I dont hate Yoshida, but he simply shouldnt get in the way here.  Otherwise, we are letting ownership and GMs just continue with what they've been "we cant add until we shed" and this approach has led to more last place finishes than playoff series wins in recent years.

When you dont have a top 50 hitter in baseball, and a top 10 hitter is sitting there in free agency, thats all the fit you need.  RA + schwarber + one more solid bat hides a lot of offensive holes and we'll surely have at least a couple.

Didn’t the Red Sox use to have a pretty good hitter at one time? You know that DEVERS FOREVERS guy. Whatever happened to him? Seems like he was all the rave around here.🤔

[moonslav59]

9 hours ago, JoeBrady said:

That's what Whitlock is for.  Every closer has some risk.  If they go down, you go to #2.

I think Slaten could be a very capable replacement for Whitlock, if we need Whit to close.

I also think Tolle or some other converted SP'er could step in to fill pen gaps.

[moonslav59]

39 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

WE don't get a say. Until people start bullying JH again, we'll get our slop and have to like it.

JH is getting better at "the game of sham."

He signs Bregman, then dumps Devers.

He signs Buehler to the highest AAV for a SP'er since Sale (who was an extension,) then DFA's him.

He seems to do just enough to keep the fans hopeful or just mildly angry. (Of course a few are very angry, but are there enough of them?)

[Hitch]

59 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

We dont have a single player that was a top 50 hitter in baseball last year. Not one.  Passing on the number 6 hitter in baseball because of a 2 yr commitment to an underachieving player is small market operations.  It would essentially be passing on a hitter that transforms our entire lineup to suck any juice out of a bad investment.  I dont hate Yoshida, but he simply shouldnt get in the way here.  Otherwise, we are letting ownership and GMs just continue with what they've been "we cant add until we shed" and this approach has led to more last place finishes than playoff series wins in recent years.

When you dont have a top 50 hitter in baseball, and a top 10 hitter is sitting there in free agency, thats all the fit you need.  RA + schwarber + one more solid bat hides a lot of offensive holes and we'll surely have at least a couple.

An impressive lack of reference to the points from my post in your reply. I'll just refer you back to my original post.  

[Hitch]

21 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

JH is getting better at "the game of sham."

He signs Bregman, then dumps Devers.

He signs Buehler to the highest AAV for a SP'er since Sale (who was an extension,) then DFA's him.

He seems to do just enough to keep the fans hopeful or just mildly angry. (Of course a few are very angry, but are there enough of them?)

This is verging into conspiracy time. We didn't dump Devers because we signed Bregman. And what the hell does it matter if he DFA'd Buehler after we signed him? He's still on the hook for all the money.

Honestly. I think sometimes some of you just look for reasons to be grumpy. 

 

[moonslav59]

22 minutes ago, Hitch said:

This is verging into conspiracy time. We didn't dump Devers because we signed Bregman. And what the hell does it matter if he DFA'd Buehler after we signed him? He's still on the hook for all the money.

Honestly. I think sometimes some of you just look for reasons to be grumpy. 

 

No. I did not say that or imply it.

The fact is, JH made us think he was back to spending big and then cut salary (Devers.) I do NOT think he planned on trading Devers when he signed Bregman, but he did cut massive salary.

Yes, he also extended Crochet and Anthony, as well as Campbell, and that was on the heels of extending Bello & Rafaela. He also extended Chapman to a minor raise, after the Devers trade.

This winter will show whether he replaces the Buehler, Gio and other lost salaries. What we do this winter is make or break, for me. There is a wide open window that can stay open for 3+ year, if we do things right. If we don't spend what is needed to fill the obvious gaps, the sham continues.

It's not a conspiracy. It's not a continuing sham, unless JH significantly limits winter spending. It's conditional.

[notin]

13 hours ago, JoeBrady said:

If you can't count on Chapman, how could you possibly count on Williams?

Williams becomes a Closer Lifeboat.

I mean, if you can’t count on the Titanic, how can you count on the lifeboats?

[Hitch]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

No. I did not say that or imply it.

The fact is, JH made us think he was back to spending big and then cut salary (Devers.) I do NOT think he planned on trading Devers when he signed Bregman, but he did cut massive salary.

Yes, he also extended Crochet and Anthony, as well as Campbell, and that was on the heels of extending Bello & Rafaela. He also extended Chapman to a minor raise, after the Devers trade.

This winter will show whether he replaces the Buehler, Gio and other lost salaries. What we do this winter is make or break, for me. There is a wide open window that can stay open for 3+ year, if we do things right. If we don't spend what is needed to fill the obvious gaps, the sham continues.

It's not a conspiracy. It's not a continuing sham, unless JH significantly limits winter spending. It's conditional.

Of course you implied it. You stated that JH is playing the game of sham and then listed things that back that up. None of which back that up. 

Regardless, I agree with this winter will show us a lot. I believe we will go all in and get what we need to make this a team with a real shot (with maybe some weaker bench pieces but I'm okay with that). But I would be lying if I didn't admit to being concerned about the either/or talk we've been seeing. I'm not saying we should be getting both Bregman and Alonso specifically, but it needs to be one of them (or a similar bat) plus another for sure.

[notin]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

WE don't get a say. Until people start bullying JH again, we'll get our slop and have to like it.

We don’t get a say even then.  We just get to pretend all of our screaming into the void was finally heard.

I’ve made multiple suggestions over the years that the Sox did make.  Did they do it because of my posts? Or was it all just a series of unrelated coincidences?

Of course, it was the latter.  No FO ever has even known I exist, let alone taken my rantings seriously.  I was nothing more than the the proverbial blind squirrel…

[moonslav59]

14 minutes ago, Hitch said:

Of course you implied it. You stated that JH is playing the game of sham and then listed things that back that up. None of which back that up. 

Regardless, I agree with this winter will show us a lot. I believe we will go all in and get what we need to make this a team with a real shot (with maybe some weaker bench pieces but I'm okay with that). But I would be lying if I didn't admit to being concerned about the either/or talk we've been seeing. I'm not saying we should be getting both Bregman and Alonso specifically, but it needs to be one of them (or a similar bat) plus another for sure.

It was a sham and will be, if he doesn't spend the money.

He gave the impression we'd spend at the deadline, but he never came out and said it.

There is ample evidence of the "sham." The :full throttle" was the most extreme. It's obvious they have been telling the team they are trying to build a winner "this year" for several years. They say there are no budget limits and things like that, and that is a sham.