Question of the week: Was trading Devers the right call?

[Bellhorn04]

9 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

Of course he didn't take the switch to DH well. He was repeatedly promised 3b would stay his.  However, when he embraced DH as Cora said he should, he was pretty good at it--OPS .905 plus he didn't miss a game.  

I do not understand the furor over replacing Casas, who was having a horrible season.  Toro/Gonzalez have been way better than Casas.

Pretty simple, Max - Devers at 1B and Yoshida at DH was a better configuration than Devers at DH and Yoshida nowhere...

[Bellhorn04]

9 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Devers hasn't been linked to PED's yet. 

I'm not going down that wormhole...

[Maxbialystock]

3 hours ago, Jasonbay44 said:

He had 30+ homers 3 times (and finished with 28 last year despite injuries.)

his career OPS in Boston is higher than Yaz, Dwight Evans, Fisk, Pedroia and Jim Rice.

he is also 10th in team history in homers.

people can say what they want about him but calling “unremarkable” and acting like he wasn’t a great hitter is insane. 

All pretty much true.  But when he left he was just a DH and so was/is Yoshida.  That's $48M/year for a DH.  

Meanwhile, the Sox hitting has improved since Devers left and they have roared back into postseason contention.   The Giants are 11-14 since Devers and his now .656 OPS arrived.

Your commentary jibes perfectly with the consensus view when Devers went to the Giants--great for them, terrible for the Sox.  Smart Giants, dumb Sox.  

 

 

[moonslav59]

54 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

You're the one reading between the lines? It's clear some fans are just going to paint whatever comes out with a negative spin against Devers. 🙃

It's not clear with me. My point all along, in general is that I and nobody know jack about almost everything.

I have no idea what the players feel and many other points argued, here.

I do feel like when a big star is traded from a competitive team, I'm used to hearing more. I may be thinking it shows something not very supportive of Devers, but I will readily admit, I have no idea how many or some feel.

I bet they miss his bat.

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

It's not clear with me. My point all along, in general is that I and nobody know jack about almost everything.

I have no idea what the players feel and many other points argued, here.

I do feel like when a big star is traded from a competitive team, I'm used to hearing more. I may be thinking it shows something not very supportive of Devers, but I will readily admit, I have no idea how many or some feel.

I bet they miss his bat.

"We have no idea what the players feel!"

"Devers was a great teammate and we got along well. We just have to move on now that he's gone." 

"Well, if you read between the lines..." 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Maxbialystock said:

 He was repeatedly promised 3b would stay his. 

Where is the "repeatedly" coming from?

As far as I know, Bloom promised him once- maybe more.

Cora rarely says things like, "That was the last guy" who said that, so I assume Cora and Brez never promised Devers 3B. Those are his two major bosses. No promises. No promises broken.

You keep saying this over and over. It's not a lie or broken promise.

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, mvp 78 said:

"We have no idea what the players feel!"

"Devers was a great teammate and we got along well. We just have to move on now that he's gone." 

"Well, if you read between the lines..." 

Seriously? I bet Albert Belle and Reggie Jackson teammates said the same thing.

My point is about not hearing many quotes, not one quote from a guy like Duran.

[Maxbialystock]

8 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Where is the "repeatedly" coming from?

As far as I know, Bloom promised him once- maybe more.

Cora rarely says things like, "That was the last guy" who said that, so I assume Cora and Brez never promised Devers 3B. Those are his two major bosses. No promises. No promises broken.

You keep saying this over and over. It's not a lie or broken promise.

You and I have read different versions about what was said to Devers.  But no matter.  

I think we can agree that playing 3b was a big deal for Devers, who had played 3b for 8 straight years. Also that hiring Bregman, a good hitter and a gold glove third baseman, meant that Devers had to leave 3b.  Because Casas was at 1b, Devers had to be DH.   

When Casas, who was having a bad season, injured himself running to 1b (last year his injury came from swinging a bat), Breslow saw the perfect opportunity to move Devers to 1b and use Yoshida or whoever at DH.  At the time, I thought leaving Devers as DH got the best use out of him.  As it turns out, Toro/Gonzalez have actually been better at 1b than Casas was.

However, once the trade with the Giants was done, I was fine with it, partly because of your point that paying Devers $30M to be DH and paying Yoshida $18M not to DH didn't make sense.  I also noted that the 6 game winning streak occurred because of the Sox pitching and not because of anything Devers did.  I also said--after Devers was traded--that Devers became trade material the day Bregman was announced as the Sox third baseman.  

So, while I do like to defend Devers if only because he was an excellent DH, I have always been fine with his departure.  Whether or not he was lied to loses its significance as each day goes by.  

 

[mvp 78]

41 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

a guy like Duran.

🧐

[notin]

2 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

Of course he didn't take the switch to DH well. He was repeatedly promised 3b would stay his.  However, when he embraced DH as Cora said he should, he was pretty good at it--OPS .905 plus he didn't miss a game.  

I do not understand the furor over replacing Casas, who was having a horrible season.  Toro/Gonzalez have been way better than Casas.  

What I do understand is that keeping Devers at DH was like paying double because Yoshida can only DH.  So that's $30M + $18M for a DH.  

On top of that has been the emergence of Anthony, maybe or maybe not Mayer, Story, Narvaez, and Rafaela at the plate.  The Sox are in fact hitting better without Devers than they did with him.  

Plus let's not forget that pitching has been the biggest issue with the Sox.  So the emergence of Giolito and Bello as pretty good starters has made a world of difference and also reduces the "pain" of losing Devers.

I'm not mad at Devers, but am mad at the commentary that says the Sox were stupid to let him go.  It was the smart move.  

 

Devers was asked to replace Casas and he doesn’t get excused just because Toro and Gonzalez were able to pick up the slack.  
 

Sure he might have been promised third, and he had it for two seasons. And in that time, he lost it.  He has more than enough opportunity to not be the worst defensive 3b in MLB.  But he counting do that.  Does a promise override his weak play?  And was it really even a promise? Who knows what was actually said.  If Devers did want a promise, they were working on his contract right then and there; why not add it on?  Now THAT would be a promise…

[mvp 78]

11 minutes ago, notin said:

Devers was asked to replace Casas and he doesn’t get excused just because Toro and Gonzalez were able to pick up the slack.  

Emphasis on WERE in the case of Toro. 528 OPS since 6/13. Big part of the reason Breslow is looking into acquiring a 1b. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

4 hours ago, notin said:

Taking age into account?  Those guys all played into their late 30s (and beyond for Yaz) and those declining years brought their OPS down.  As it will for Devers one day…

It's true. For all of us, the goal may be to get older, but the accompanying lower testosterone saps the O and the S, with loss of muscle mass, and surprisingly, focus -- two things MLB hitters need to succeed. 

I'd cite more points, but I tired......

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

It's not clear with me. My point all along, in general is that I and nobody know jack about almost everything.

I have no idea what the players feel and many other points argued, here.

I do feel like when a big star is traded from a competitive team, I'm used to hearing more. I may be thinking it shows something not very supportive of Devers, but I will readily admit, I have no idea how many or some feel.

I bet they miss his bat.

Ya, that Ruth could swing the club, but he drank, and smoked, and womanized, and hotdogized, and laughed so loudly late at night it caused crickets to drop their violins.

[Nick]

I think it was Papelbon on NESN that said when Kennedy and Breslow got together with the players on the road after the trade, to talk about Devers, the team supposedly said "we don't need any explanation, let's move on".

Sounds like not one player defended Devers. Not to say they don't respect his production but sounds to me like they were over him for not doing what the management thought was best for the team at that moment.

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, Nick said:

I think it was Papelbon on NESN that said when Kennedy and Breslow got together with the players on the road after the trade, to talk about Devers, the team supposedly said "we don't need any explanation, let's move on".

Sounds like not one player defended Devers. Not to say they don't respect his production but sounds to me like they were over him for not doing what the management thought was best for the team at that moment.

At that point, Cora had already spoken to the team and told the team it was best to just move on. Kennedy and Breslow were there a day or two later. 

Again "sounds like they were over him" is really reading between the lines here. It's definitely throwing an anti-Devers spin in there when there isn't necessarily one. 

[Hitch]

21 hours ago, illinoisredsox said:

Pure speculation on my part, but my guess is he was neither a plus nor a minus re. clubhouse culture; he didn’t drag it down and he didn’t add to it either.  He was just there.  If there were real issues, the press would have been all over it.

He seldom sat near anyone on the bench (in the dugout shots we saw, anyway). The happy kid who always had a sort of goofy smile on his face disappeared a couple years ago (when Bogaerts left) and he found out this is a business.

I’ve likened him to Yaz in that he is likely very introverted; the lack of reaction by his former teammates probably stems from the fact that none knew him very well.

I wish him well in SF and hope he kills it there (except for a certain  3 games a year).

I suspect this is probably very close to the truth. 

He let himself (and teammates) down hugely when he refused to play 1st when we really needed him to. To then offer to play there because 'they're the boss' in his first Giants press conference was just a final insult. 

We don't need to assume anything about how good a teammate Devers was towards the end. He showed us. 

I don't have any ill will towards him, but I don't particularly care if he does well either. He's the past and I'm rather glad that he is. 

[Nick]

51 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

At that point, Cora had already spoken to the team and told the team it was best to just move on. Kennedy and Breslow were there a day or two later. 

Again "sounds like they were over him" is really reading between the lines here. It's definitely throwing an anti-Devers spin in there when there isn't necessarily one. 

My main point was relaying what Papelbon said (I heard him). His story does not jive with the 'entirety' of events.

[Soxlover]

23 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Personally I think it's one of those situations where players might prefer to not say anything about it, because it's a no-win situation anyway.

Good thing Casas wasn't still around, I guess.  I'll bet he would have said something.

 

I agree.  Don’t we often hear several quotes when top players are traded.

when one is traded from a contending team for prospects, projects and partial salary comp, usually someone bitches about the teams willingness to try and win

to me the silence is deafening, and I’m a Devers fan who wishes he was still batting second, but playing 1B.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

4 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

Of course he didn't take the switch to DH well. He was repeatedly promised 3b would stay his.  However, when he embraced DH as Cora said he should, he was pretty good at it--OPS .905 plus he didn't miss a game.  

I do not understand the furor over replacing Casas, who was having a horrible season.  Toro/Gonzalez have been way better than Casas.  

What I do understand is that keeping Devers at DH was like paying double because Yoshida can only DH.  So that's $30M + $18M for a DH.  

On top of that has been the emergence of Anthony, maybe or maybe not Mayer, Story, Narvaez, and Rafaela at the plate.  The Sox are in fact hitting better without Devers than they did with him.  

Plus let's not forget that pitching has been the biggest issue with the Sox.  So the emergence of Giolito and Bello as pretty good starters has made a world of difference and also reduces the "pain" of losing Devers.

I'm not mad at Devers, but am mad at the commentary that says the Sox were stupid to let him go.  It was the smart move.  

 

I'm pretty sure at this point the Giants would return Devers back to Boston and still allow the Sox to keep the 4 players in the trade package.

 

[Soxlover]

1 hour ago, Hitch said:

I suspect this is probably very close to the truth. 

He let himself (and teammates) down hugely when he refused to play 1st when we really needed him to. To then offer to play there because 'they're the boss' in his first Giants press conference was just a final insult. 

We don't need to assume anything about how good a teammate Devers was towards the end. He showed us. 

I don't have any ill will towards him, but I don't particularly care if he does well either. He's the past and I'm rather glad that he is. 

Are you reading my mind?

[Soxlover]

1 minute ago, SPLENDIDSPLINTER said:

I'm pretty sure the Giants would return Devers back to Boston and still allow the Sox to keep the 4 players in the trade package.

 

Would you trade Yoshida, Hendricks and Buehler for Devers?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

1 minute ago, Soxlover said:

Would you trade Yoshida, Hendricks and Buehler for Devers?

I would keep Masa and give Buehler one more start to prove himself. If Buehler sux then DFA him. As for Hendricks might as well DFA him also.

I believe you can gather from my posts that I don't want Devers back..

[Soxlover]

36 minutes ago, SPLENDIDSPLINTER said:

I would keep Masa and give Buehler one more start to prove himself. If Buehler sux then DFA him. As for Hendricks might as well DFA him also.

I believe you can gather from my posts that I don't want Devers back..

Yes, I knew this would be your answer. 

[Duran Is The Man]

8 hours ago, notin said:

Taking age into account?  Those guys all played into their late 30s (and beyond for Yaz) and those declining years brought their OPS down.  As it will for Devers one day…

Jim Ed and Devers through age 27 season. Jim Ed leads in nearly every significant catergory and this is with one less season than Devers. adding another season for Rice and he leads in everything but doubles, BB and strikeouts. 

 

[moonslav59]

7 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

You and I have read different versions about what was said to Devers.  But no matter.  

I think we can agree that playing 3b was a big deal for Devers, who had played 3b for 8 straight years. Also that hiring Bregman, a good hitter and a gold glove third baseman, meant that Devers had to leave 3b.  Because Casas was at 1b, Devers had to be DH.   

When Casas, who was having a bad season, injured himself running to 1b (last year his injury came from swinging a bat), Breslow saw the perfect opportunity to move Devers to 1b and use Yoshida or whoever at DH.  At the time, I thought leaving Devers as DH got the best use out of him.  As it turns out, Toro/Gonzalez have actually been better at 1b than Casas was.

However, once the trade with the Giants was done, I was fine with it, partly because of your point that paying Devers $30M to be DH and paying Yoshida $18M not to DH didn't make sense.  I also noted that the 6 game winning streak occurred because of the Sox pitching and not because of anything Devers did.  I also said--after Devers was traded--that Devers became trade material the day Bregman was announced as the Sox third baseman.  

So, while I do like to defend Devers if only because he was an excellent DH, I have always been fine with his departure.  Whether or not he was lied to loses its significance as each day goes by.  

 

Okay Max, but there is no proof he was ever lied to.

Whatever Bloom said or promised, he likely meant it- no lie: no deception.

Brez and Cora made no promises, as far as we know, so not only is there no lie, there is no deception, either. Maybe, if Cora did tell him, you will DH for the whole season, situations change, so it's still not a lie, unless Cora knowingly told Devers something he knew to be untrue.

I fully understand Devers felt harmed, disrespected and deceived. IMO, he deceived himself, too, as the guy actually still thinks he's a plus defender at 3B, so he was never going to accept the reasoning for moving him. It's too bad, because I loved watching him hit. I would still like to watch him hit in our line-up, but I'm okay with what happened in the end. 

I'll be more okay if and when JH spends the "savings."

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, Duran Is The Man said:

Jim Ed and Devers through age 27 season. Jim Ed leads in nearly every significant catergory and this is with one less season than Devers. adding another season for Rice and he leads in everything but doubles, BB and strikeouts. 

 

I don't think anyone thinks Devers is better than Jim Ed up to age 30, but you made a great point.

[Bellhorn04]

Last 18 games - .554 OPS and 0 HR.  Looks a lot like last August.  

 

 

[moonslav59]

26 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Last 18 games - .554 OPS and 0 HR.  Looks a lot like last August.  

 

 

He's been streaky over his career, but not usually this bad, unless influenced by injury.

If this is a sign of career decline, this early, Brez may end up being viewed as a genius.

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

He's been streaky over his career, but not usually this bad, unless influenced by injury.

If this is a sign of career decline, this early, Brez may end up being viewed as a genius.

I don't know about genius, but it'll definitely shut up most of the critics of the trade.

I think Devers is not 100% again and I do suspect he's starting to break down physically. 

[moonslav59]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

I don't know about genius, but it'll definitely shut up most of the critics of the trade.

I think Devers is not 100% again and I do suspect he's starting to break down physically. 

It's hard to know. He's the kind of hitter that can bring his numbers up to career norms in a week or two.

I agree that the word "genius" would fit, but when you see so much hindsight judging going on, why not with this move, too?