Zack Scott explaining the Mookie trade and a lot more (article from Over the Monster)

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

From NBC:

As a reminder, the Red Sox reportedly offered Betts a 10-year, $300 million deal.

Looks like this was "rounded off" if Betts and Scott are telling the truth.

[JoeBrady]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Correct, and Scott also backs this up, saying it was close but not all the way there.  

From a source I think you're pretty likely to believe:

Bellhorn04

• Ownership drew the line at around $300 million and wouldn't budge from that, and then gave the go-ahead to trade him.

[JoeBrady]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

Looks like this was "rounded off" if Betts and Scott are telling the truth.

If Scott was there, and is spilling the beans, then how close was it?  He either knows the number, or he doesn't.  If he knew the number, I'm pretty sure he'd have mentioned it.

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, JoeBrady said:

From a source I think you're pretty likely to believe:

Bellhorn04

• Ownership drew the line at around $300 million and wouldn't budge from that, and then gave the go-ahead to trade him.

OK I'm nit-picking a bit about the $300 million number.  It's just that Betts said there was no $300 million offer and Scott backed him up by saying it was nearly $300 million without saying how nearly.

[JoeBrady]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Understood.

My position is that there's no evidence that Mookie wanted out or asked to be traded.  That's all speculation.  As far as I know no one in the organization has ever said this was the case.  The simple fact is that the Red Sox traded him.

Of course it is all speculation.  None of us were there.  You asked why I thought he was traded.  My speculation is as good as anyone else's speculation.

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, JoeBrady said:

If Scott was there, and is spilling the beans, then how close was it?  He either knows the number, or he doesn't.  If he knew the number, I'm pretty sure he'd have mentioned it.

Scott said nearly.  I would assume that means $280-$290 million.  It's a lot of money.  But I can understand Betts thinking it was not enough.

[JoeBrady]

1 minute ago, Bellhorn04 said:

OK I'm nit-picking a bit about the $300 million number.  It's just that Betts said there was no $300 million offer and Scott backed him up by saying it was nearly $300 million without saying how nearly.

I seriously doubt Scott knows.  I've listened to thousands of people spouting opinions.  The more vague they are, the less I believe them.

[Bellhorn04]

6 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

Of course it is all speculation.  None of us were there.  You asked why I thought he was traded.  My speculation is as good as anyone else's speculation.

OK but you're going as far as saying Betts encouraged the team to trade him.  

[JoeBrady]

2 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Scott said nearly.  I would assume that means $280-$290 million.  It's a lot of money.  But I can understand Betts thinking it was not enough.

Before he was traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers, All-Star outfielder Mookie Betts turned down a contract extension from the Boston Red Sox worth $300 million.

Even after a pandemic has left MLB facing a 60-game season and significant uncertainty, Betts isn't rethinking his decision.

"I don't regret turning down that," Betts said of Boston's offer, according to Andy McCullough of The Athletic. 

The way Mookie responded, it feels like $300M was the real number.  If it wasn't $300M, would Mookie not have corrected it?  And if it was only $29M, the difference is diminimus.

 

[Bellhorn04]

From what we have observed about this Red Sox organization, I think that if it was Betts who was the instigator behind the trade, they would have very gladly leaked the story.

[Bellhorn04]

3 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

Before he was traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers, All-Star outfielder Mookie Betts turned down a contract extension from the Boston Red Sox worth $300 million.

Even after a pandemic has left MLB facing a 60-game season and significant uncertainty, Betts isn't rethinking his decision.

"I don't regret turning down that," Betts said of Boston's offer, according to Andy McCullough of The Athletic. 

The way Mookie responded, it feels like $300M was the real number.  If it wasn't $300M, would Mookie not have corrected it?  And if it was only $29M, the difference is diminimus.

 

Yes, I have read that, and it's really bad reporting.  They don't tell us what was said directly before that quote from Betts.  

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, JoeBrady said:

I don't think we'd have had anything.  There were three reasons why DD was replaced after 2019:

• 84-78
• Highest payroll in baseball
• Worst farm in baseball

None of those things were going to change any time soon.

I would add that "the plan" was to slash the payroll budget, and DD was not the best type of GM for that role.

IMO, he'd have been miserable having to trade Betts and not being able to replace all the salaries lost (Betts, Price, JD, Porcello and later with Nate, Sale & Bogey.)

The "new spending" after the Sale & Nate signings up to Devers extension and 2025 & 2026 budgets was not up DD's alley.

The fact that they chose Bloom as the GM supports that idea. Bloom cut the budget, built up the farm and 40 man roster depth to a point where a rebuild became possible had we spent top money correctly (No Story, Yoshida and the endless $10M seasonal SP'ers.)

Brez has done a better job, spent more, but has made a few deals that went south, quickly and sharply. He did end up replacing the Devers money, but neglected replacing the big bat we needed beyond Contreras.

I do see this roster & farm as better than 2022-2024 (Bloom after 2-3 years.) We have a few gaping holes, and the fact that almost all AL teams do too, offers little solace.

[Bellhorn04]

6 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

I would add that "the plan" was to slash the payroll budget, and DD was not the best type of GM for that role.

IMO, he'd have been miserable having to trade Betts and not being able to replace all the salaries lost (Betts, Price, JD, Porcello and later with Nate, Sale & Bogey.)

The "new spending" after the Sale & Nate signings up to Devers extension and 2025 & 2026 budgets was not up DD's alley.

The fact that they chose Bloom as the GM supports that idea. Bloom cut the budget, built up the farm and 40 man roster depth to a point where a rebuild became possible had we spent top money correctly (No Story, Yoshida and the endless $10M seasonal SP'ers.)

Brez has done a better job, spent more, but has made a few deals that went south, quickly and sharply. He did end up replacing the Devers money, but neglected replacing the big bat we needed beyond Contreras.

I do see this roster & farm as better than 2022-2024 (Bloom after 2-3 years.) We have a few gaping holes, and the fact that almost all AL teams do too, offers little solace.

Yeah, I think the plan was all of a piece - slash payroll and get a CBO from the Rays organization who knows how to get more out of less.  

The best laid plans of mice and men and John Henry.

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

OK I'm nit-picking a bit about the $300 million number.  It's just that Betts said there was no $300 million offer and Scott backed him up by saying it was nearly $300 million without saying how nearly.

Let’s call it $290mill.  $29mill AAV.

Impossible to know, but it seems like 12 year $348mill contract might have at least been tempting,

Those last two years…

[moonslav59]

25 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah, I think the plan was all of a piece - slash payroll and get a CBO from the Rays organization who knows how to get more out of less.  

The best laid plans of mice and men and John Henry.

They got the guy who literally wrote the book on the Rays way, but it turned out others from that organization went on to do better things than Bloom was able to pull off with BOS.

He did find a few "gems in the rough," but I thin the expectation was that he'd find more, and with a bigger budget than the Rays, could produce better results.

NOT!

James Click HOU>TOR

Matt Aronol MIL

Peter Bendix MIA

Andrew Friedman LAD

Managers: Rocco Baldelli (MIN) Derek Shelton (PIT) Matt Quatraro (KCR) Craig Albernaz (BAL) Blake Butera (WSH) and formerly Joe Maddon (Cubs and LAA)- some of these have not done too well.

 

[Old Red]

13 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Yeah, I think the plan was all of a piece - slash payroll and get a CBO from the Rays organization who knows how to get more out of less.  

The best laid plans of mice and men and John Henry.

Bloom said things would be AWESOME. What happened?🤔

[Old Red]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

They got the guy who literally wrote the book on the Rays way, but it turned out others from that organization went on to do better things than Bloom was able to pull off with BOS.

He did find a few "gems in the rough," but I thin the expectation was that he'd find more, and with a bigger budget than the Rays, could produce better results.

NOT!

Friedman had something to do with the Ray’s way.

[Duran Is The Man]

4 hours ago, JoeBrady said:

I don't think we'd have had anything.  There were three reasons why DD was replaced after 2019:

• 84-78
• Highest payroll in baseball
• Worst farm in baseball

None of those things were going to change any time soon.

now we have:

•the shittiest team in baseball

•top 12 payroll

•#13 farm 

LOf***ingL

i'll take DD and his 3 AL east Championships, and one WS over the steaming pile of s*** we have now.

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

now we have:

•the shittiest team in baseball

•top 12 payroll

•#13 farm 

LOf***ingL

i'll take DD and his 3 AL east Championships, and one WS over the steaming pile of s*** we have now.

You honestly think DD wins another ring with the same budgets handed Bloom & Brez?

You think the Phillies are well positioned now after 2026? Look at the massive contracts they have for players who will be 32 or over.

[Old Red]

7 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

You honestly think DD wins another ring with the same budgets handed Bloom & Brez?

You think the Phillies are well positioned now after 2026? Look at the massive contracts they have for players who will be 32 or over.

Yes, and the Phillies have been in the postseason the last 4 years, which I think most Red Sox fans will take.

[Duran Is The Man]

19 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

You honestly think DD wins another ring with the same budgets handed Bloom & Brez?

You think the Phillies are well positioned now after 2026? Look at the massive contracts they have for players who will be 32 or over.

moon, we don't have a clue what he could have done with a limited budget. i just know what he did while he was here. the guy is a HOF GM and been very successful where ever he has been. meanwhile, the entire Sox organization has been a steaming pile of s*** since he was fired. here we are 7 years later and the entire roster has turned over a half dozen times since he left, it still suck ass and the clowns running it don't have a clue. and i don't give a s*** about philly; it has nothing to do with the Red Sox. again, i'll take DD over Bloom or Bresloverpay any day.

[Old Red]

15 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

moon, we don't have a clue what he could have done with a limited budget. i just know what he did while he was here. the guy is a HOF GM and been very successful where ever he has been. meanwhile, the entire Sox organization has been a steaming pile of s*** since he was fired. here we are 7 years later and the entire roster has turned over a half dozen times since he left, it still suck ass and the clowns running it don't have a clue. and i don't give a s*** about philly; it has nothing to do with the Red Sox. again, i'll take DD over Bloom or Bresloverpay any day.

I think this sums things up pretty well. You are right NO ONE knows what DD would have done with a limited budget. Of course if you have a limited opinion that he would have not done so well that would make Bloom, and Breslow not look so bad.

[JoeBrady]

2 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

From what we have observed about this Red Sox organization, I think that if it was Betts who was the instigator behind the trade, they would have very gladly leaked the story.

That is certainly not unfair.

[moonslav59]

46 minutes ago, Duran Is The Man said:

moon, we don't have a clue what he could have done with a limited budget. i just know what he did while he was here. the guy is a HOF GM and been very successful where ever he has been. meanwhile, the entire Sox organization has been a steaming pile of s*** since he was fired. here we are 7 years later and the entire roster has turned over a half dozen times since he left, it still suck ass and the clowns running it don't have a clue. and i don't give a s*** about philly; it has nothing to do with the Red Sox. again, i'll take DD over Bloom or Bresloverpay any day.

We do know what he did here: he spent large and long and traded away much or the overrated farm. 

Many of the players on the 2019 and 2020 teams were in decline and paid a ton. His farm brought us Houck and Devers and precious little else for over a half decade.

With a limited budget, even Houdini could not bring us a ring.

One could argue 2021 was a stunning accomplishment considering the budget cuts, lack of roster depth and farm infusion.

Please don't take this as a knock on DD. I loved him as a GM and defended him against the notion that he "emptied the farm." Almost every farm hand he traded underperformed, as the players we got back were almost all helpful.

His major signings almost all did well to very well, but he was allowed more of them than Bloom was allowed. Even the Story ($140M/6) and Yoshida ($90M/5) deals paled in comparison to Price ($210M/7) and were about the same or less when factoring in inflation to Sale & JD's deals. He had enough to add Nate ($60M/4) and Porcello's extension at over $20M.

I just don't see any GM doing enough to get us nearer a ring than 2021.

Better than Bloom? Yes, of course, but that bar was set low. There was a long way to go to get close to a ring, and to do it, DD would have likely had to trade several from Anthony, Mayer, Tolle, Early, Rafaela and other young players and prospects.

I'd take DD for 2020>>>, if we had an increasing budget that kept us top 3 into 2025-2026.

(Note: we stayed top 3-5 due to all the DD contracts for several years into Bloom's term.)

 

[JoeBrady]

1 hour ago, Old Red said:

Bloom said things would be AWESOME. What happened?🤔

He inherited a bloated payroll, and four years of DD drafts which resulted in nothing but Duran.  I'm not saying Bloom did anything, but he didn't inherit much either.

[JoeBrady]

5 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

Almost every farm hand he traded underperformed, as the players we got back were almost all helpful.

Trading away overrated prospects is DD's superpower.  That said. he inherited 4 young, a top-tier farm, and was allowed to out-spend every team in BB.  He had Devers, Bogaerts, Betts & JBJ, traded away a top-10 and a top-5 prospect, and had the money to sign Price & JDM.  It worked out great, but it wasn't exactly a magic show.

[Old Red]

13 minutes ago, JoeBrady said:

He inherited a bloated payroll, and four years of DD drafts which resulted in nothing but Duran.  I'm not saying Bloom did anything, but he didn't inherit much either.

Bloom was hired in 2019, and said things were going to be awesome in 2023, so he was on year 4. 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, JoeBrady said:

Trading away overrated prospects is DD's superpower.  That said. he inherited 4 young, a top-tier farm, and was allowed to out-spend every team in BB.  He had Devers, Bogaerts, Betts & JBJ, traded away a top-10 and a top-5 prospect, and had the money to sign Price & JDM.  It worked out great, but it wasn't exactly a magic show.

I think I once counted 20-25 prospects DD traded that at one time or another were top 20 on soxprospects.com. Hardly any did anything super helpful, and most did next to nothing.

Some call it luck, as many of the ones he kept were very young, but the ones he kept outperformed those he traded...

Devers, Rafaela, Duran, Houck, Beni, Casas, Beeks, Crawford, Bello, Chris Murphy & Dalbec

I had no issues with what DD did. I just don't think he'd have handled major slashes to the budget. I think JH unknowingly did DD a favor.

[Old Red]

11 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

I think I once counted 20-25 prospects DD traded that at one time or another were top 20 on soxprospects.com. Hardly any did anything super helpful, and most did next to nothing.

Some call it luck, as many of the ones he kept were very young, but the ones he kept outperformed those he traded...

Devers, Rafaela, Duran, Houck, Beni, Casas, Beeks, Crawford, Bello, Chris Murphy & Dalbec

I had no issues with what DD did. I just don't think he'd have handled major slashes to the budget. I think JH unknowingly did DD a favor.

To speculate that DD couldn’t have done a better job than Bloom with the same budget is just wishful thinking on your part that you have speculated many times, and of course if that happened it wouldn’t have made Bloom look so bad. Bloom was bad, but Bloom would have been bad no matter what IMO. 

[mvp 78]

16 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

They got the guy who literally wrote the book on the Rays way, but it turned out others from that organization went on to do better things than Bloom was able to pull off with BOS.

He did find a few "gems in the rough," but I thin the expectation was that he'd find more, and with a bigger budget than the Rays, could produce better results.

NOT!

James Click HOU>TOR

Matt Aronol MIL

Peter Bendix MIA

Andrew Friedman LAD

Managers: Rocco Baldelli (MIN) Derek Shelton (PIT) Matt Quatraro (KCR) Craig Albernaz (BAL) Blake Butera (WSH) and formerly Joe Maddon (Cubs and LAA)- some of these have not done too well.

 

The Cardinals are currently 8 games ahead of the Sox in the standings.