Red Sox ownership

[moonslav59]

Under Dombrowski, the Sox won the A.L. East an unprecedented three straight years ,with one world championship, without emulating the Rays. They then slipped to third place ( although still a competitive , above .500 team ) and Dombrowski was axed. At that point, the team embarked on its current course , starting with the bizarre trading of one of their all time best and most popular players. And the results speak for themselves.

 

DD deserves all the praise he gets.

 

He made a lot of great signings and trades. That 3 year stretch was amazing.

 

He did sacrifice some of the future, but it was worth every bit, and as it turned out, he mainly kept the best prospects and traded the duds.

[Bellhorn04]

In case you are no longer aware, the Red Sox no longer want to have the highest payroll in the league. It worked from a baseball standpoint, but something about it from a business standpoint clearly has not been sitting well with Henry. That he gave us a few years of top tier payroll is nice and we all enjoyed it, but he clearly has always been about running a more efficient team that costs less. As Dombrowski prefers to operate in the upper stratosphere of payrolls, his MO doesn’t fit well with what the Sox want to do.

 

It’s not about liking it. It’s just reality…

 

And it might be screwing the pooch and killing the golden goose, for some more animal-related metaphors.

 

It's not really just hyperbole any more that the Sox are becoming an organization that's not well thought of around the game. The poor selection of candidates for CBO cemented that reality.

[dgalehouse]

In case you are no longer aware, the Red Sox no longer want to have the highest payroll in the league. It worked from a baseball standpoint, but something about it from a business standpoint clearly has not been sitting well with Henry. That he gave us a few years of top tier payroll is nice and we all enjoyed it, but he clearly has always been about running a more efficient team that costs less. As Dombrowski prefers to operate in the upper stratosphere of payrolls, his MO doesn’t fit well with what the Sox want to do.

 

It’s not about liking it. It’s just reality…

 

I was just responding to your statement that the Sox were not as successful as the Rays .

[moonslav59]

I think you mean that he nearly traded Mookie, not Sale. And you keep posting that as if it is a known fact. But I don't recall hearing anything about it at the time. The fact is, the Sox were having great success, but for some reason, decided to change course. Now they look like a cheap Ship of Fools.

 

Yes, Mookie not Sale.

 

My bad.

 

My point was the moment of change as right after 2018, not after 2019. The near trade of Mookie in 2019 is evidence the change had already started.

 

It's my opinion that was one of the bones of contention thought to have occurred between DD and the Sox FO. I can only imagine how DD would have acted, had he stayed on for 2020 under the same circumstances forced on Bloom.

 

Edited January 13, 2024 by moonslav59

[Old Red]

And it might be screwing the pooch and killing the golden goose, for some more animal-related metaphors.

 

It's not really just hyperbole any more that the Sox are becoming an organization that's not well thought of around the game. The poor selection of candidates for CBO cemented that reality.

That was talked about a lot too on the MLB network, and ESPN when candidate after candidate would not answer the Red Sox door, or take a call. Kind of an joke around the league.

[Randy Red Sox]

If Bloom's main task was to build for the long term success, and that is what he tried to do, why is he to blame for that?

 

No doubt, the lack of promising pitching prospects is very worthy of criticism and puts a big dent in any grade we give him for farm building, but the fact is, the farm is ranked much higher by every ranking system. Much higher.

 

It could all turn to dust. We get that.

 

The "great" Ben farm, that DD traded much away, turned out to be over hype. That happens, a lot, but more times than not, these rankings do a decent job with projections.

 

I'd rather have the farm now, in one year: Anthony, Mayer, Teel, Bleis, Rafaela, Cespedes & Abreu than...

 

All the top homegrown, starting pitching prospects the Sox system had in the 12 seasons before Bloom took over (2008-2019):

 

Listed by top soxpropsects,com ranking:

1, Casey Kelly, Jay Groome

2. Michael Bowden, Henry Owens, Anthony Ranaudo, DHern

3. Doubront, Anderson Espinoza, Daniel Bard (best as a RP)

5. Houck, Michael Kopech, Brian Johnson

 

Bloom took over a system that produced jack for SP'ers for over a dozen years. It's not something that can be changed, overnight.

 

I understand your focus on the lack of top draft picks and IFA bonuses for SP'ers. It has merit, but the context and full picture shows our farm seems to have improved. Time will tell on the pitching.

 

I think we all hope Brez can turn the pitching aspect around. Ben, DD and Bloom did not.

 

i never said that Bloom didn't improve the farm. heck with 3 last place finishes in 4 years i would HOPE that he would have improved the farm. Not to mention he had the Mookie trade and the FA's who all walked away for nothing. Fact is that we have no top P prospects { NONE} will impact any contributions the farm position players provide.

[Randy Red Sox]

What a stupid response.

 

i'd call it something else

[Old Red]

DD deserves all the praise he gets.

 

He made a lot of great signings and trades. That 3 year stretch was amazing.

 

He did sacrifice some of the future, but it was worth every bit, and as it turned out, he mainly kept the best prospects and traded the duds.

 

He did not sacrifice any of the future that turned out better than what they got, and the BEST part was he did it for the here, and now, and was successful at it.

[moonslav59]

i never said that Bloom didn't improve the farm. heck with 3 last place finishes in 4 years i would HOPE that he would have improved the farm. Not to mention he had the Mookie trade and the FA's who all walked away for nothing. Fact is that we have no top P prospects { NONE} will impact any contributions the farm position players provide.

 

I'm not trying to downplay the lack of young pitchers on the horizon. It sucks.

 

I did not mean to imply you think the farm is not improved.

 

To me, we should be using the improved farm to trade for better SP'ers, until we find a way to improve our homegrown pitching production. It's what we've done since even before Theo (Pedro under Dan D.)

 

DD proved the farm has more value than just providing talent. (Sale, Kimbrell, Pomeranz)

[jacksonianmarch]

What makes anyone think Breslow will be able to do what a decade of sox GM work has been unable to do in rebuilding the MiLB pitching depth

[Old Red]

In case you are no longer aware, the Red Sox no longer want to have the highest payroll in the league. It worked from a baseball standpoint, but something about it from a business standpoint clearly has not been sitting well with Henry. That he gave us a few years of top tier payroll is nice and we all enjoyed it, but he clearly has always been about running a more efficient team that costs less. As Dombrowski prefers to operate in the upper stratosphere of payrolls, his MO doesn’t fit well with what the Sox want to do.

 

It’s not about liking it. It’s just reality…

 

Who said the Red Sox were expected, or wanted to have the highest payroll in the league? The top tier payroll that the Red Sox once resided in has gone up, and up in just a few short years. JH who was once one of the big boys is no longer that. Got to get better with what you have to work with, but that should have included Mookie.

[notin]

Who said the Red Sox were expected, or wanted to have the highest payroll in the league? The top tier payroll that the Red Sox once resided in has gone up, and up in just a few short years. JH who was once one of the big boys is no longer that. Got to get better with what you have to work with, but that should have included Mookie.

 

There was a time when that was reality. Nowadays, we seem to be middle of the pack and dropping.

 

The urgency on this forum to spend didn’t start this off-season. It started in the 2019/2020 timeframe, when the Sox were still among the highest payrolls in the league…

[notin]

What makes anyone think Breslow will be able to do what a decade of sox GM work has been unable to do in rebuilding the MiLB pitching depth

 

Because he’s going to try…

[dgalehouse]

Home grown pitching is just one aspect of a winning team. Nothing wrong with acquiring pitching via trades or free agency. The Sox have won championships without a whole lot of contribution from home grown pitchers.

[notin]

Home grown pitching is just one aspect of a winning team. Nothing wrong with acquiring pitching via trades or free agency. The Sox have won championships without a whole lot of contribution from home grown pitchers.

 

Like button?

 

Only issue is the Sox seem reluctant to pay for any top tier pitching, not that free agent starting pitching has been a strong suit for this team…

[Hugh2]

What a stupid response.

 

With all due respect, who are you to tell other people their opinions are stupid?

[Old Red]

With all due respect, who are you to tell other people their opinions are stupid?

 

Or you especially. Wow!

[Hitch]

I think you're reading too much in there. I consider myself a cerebral type, so I don't think of it as an insult. And I thought Theo Epstein was cerebral and obviously very successful.

 

All I'm saying is that it might be questionable to fire someone and then replace them with someone who checks so many of the same boxes.

 

I wasn't saying you were using cerebral as insult. If you read my post again you'll see every point is in reference to comparison. You are lazily comparing them to take another shot at ownership and using cerebral as the adjective to deliver it.

 

The fact they both went to Yale and were both lacking in experience at the very top of Front Office management is about all there is (and even then you have next to no idea exactly what experience and workload they did have). Breslow has sat in locker rooms for years, learned how to hone his craft, given and taken advice to and from other players. Delivered under huge pressure with a full stadium cheering or booing him. Won a WS. The experience he brings to this role when it comes to what the team may or not need is a different galaxy to Bloom. They're different people with vastly different life experiences once they left school. This, I'm sure, would have counted for a lot.

 

Tying them together because they're both smart is just flat out lazy.

 

You (along with many others) are at a point where everything points to the evil/stupidity of ownership right now. And when someone is there it's just constant confirmation bias.

Edited January 14, 2024 by Hitch

[Old Red]

I wasn't saying you were using cerebral as insult. If you read my post again you'll see every point is in reference to comparison. You are lazily comparing them to take another shot at ownership and using cerebral as the adjective to deliver it.

 

The fact they both went to Yale and were both lacking in experience at the very top of Front Office management is about all there is (and even then you have next to no idea exactly what experience and workload they did have). Breslow has sat in locker rooms for years, learned how to hone his craft, given and taken advice to and from other players. Delivered under huge pressure with a full stadium cheering or booing him. Won a WS. The experience he brings to this role when it comes to what the team may or not need is a different galaxy to Bloom. They're different people with vastly different life experiences once they left school. This, I'm sure, would have counted for a lot.

 

Tying them together because they're both smart is just flat out lazy.

 

You (along with many others) are at a point where everything points to the evil/stupidity of ownership right now. And when someone is there it's just constant confirmation bias.

 

🙈🤭🤮.

[Hugh2]

Or you especially. Wow!

 

Oh….the irony.

[Old Red]

Oh….the irony.

 

Hibernate.

[Hugh2]

Just calling out a hypocrite when I see one

[Old Red]

Just calling out a hypocrite when I see one

 

YOU are the one who used the word dumb.🤭🙈🤮, so you must have been looking in the mirror. OMG, OMG!

[Bellhorn04]

I wasn't saying you were using cerebral as insult. If you read my post again you'll see every point is in reference to comparison. You are lazily comparing them to take another shot at ownership and using cerebral as the adjective to deliver it.

 

The fact they both went to Yale and were both lacking in experience at the very top of Front Office management is about all there is (and even then you have next to no idea exactly what experience and workload they did have). Breslow has sat in locker rooms for years, learned how to hone his craft, given and taken advice to and from other players. Delivered under huge pressure with a full stadium cheering or booing him. Won a WS. The experience he brings to this role when it comes to what the team may or not need is a different galaxy to Bloom. They're different people with vastly different life experiences once they left school. This, I'm sure, would have counted for a lot.

 

I don't think there's much evidence to support the idea that playing experience is a plus in a CBO.

 

If you run through the list of the most successful CBOs in history, I don't think you'll find very many former players.

 

I am suffering from confirmation bias these days, I will freely admit that.

 

When it comes to Breslow's hiring, the thing that stands out is that the Red Sox ended up with a much smaller field of candidates than they expected, which was concerning and frankly embarrassing in itself. Then they choose a guy who is a total unknown quantity as a CBO, just as the previous guy was. Then they tell us full throttle and follow it up with a stunningly inactive offseason. It's hard to get a sense they have any clue what they're doing any more.

[Hugh2]

YOU are the one who used the word dumb.🤭🙈🤮, so you must have been looking in the mirror. OMG, OMG!

 

Yo, I ain’t running and hiding, I own what I say.

 

I said to him EXACTLY what he said to me after I wrote to you “that’s the dumbest s*** I ever heard”

 

I was very specific to write exactly that after he called another posters comments dumb.

 

Obviously that went over your head.

[Old Red]

Yo, I ain’t running and hiding, I own what I say.

 

I said to him EXACTLY what he said to me after I wrote to you “that’s the dumbest s*** I ever heard”

 

I was very specific to write exactly that after he called another posters comments dumb.

 

Obviously that went over your head.

 

You threw a hissy fit before, cried, and took your toys, and went home. That’s a fact. That was your best work.

[Old Red]

I don't think there's much evidence to support the idea that playing experience is a plus in a CBO.

 

If you run through the list of the most successful CBOs in history, I don't think you'll find very many former players.

 

I am suffering from confirmation bias these days, I will freely admit that.

 

When it comes to Breslow's hiring, the thing that stands out is that the Red Sox ended up with a much smaller field of candidates than they expected, which was concerning and frankly embarrassing in itself. Then they choose a guy who is a total unknown quantity as a CBO, just as the previous guy was. Then they tell us full throttle and follow it up with a stunningly inactive offseason. It's hard to get a sense they have any clue what they're doing any more.

 

The only thing that Bres probably got by being a player in Boston is how the media, and fan base is. I doubt that will help him any when it comes to making moves, or not making moves.

[Hitch]

I don't think there's much evidence to support the idea that playing experience is a plus in a CBO.

 

If you run through the list of the most successful CBOs in history, I don't think you'll find very many former players.

 

I am suffering from confirmation bias these days, I will freely admit that.

 

When it comes to Breslow's hiring, the thing that stands out is that the Red Sox ended up with a much smaller field of candidates than they expected, which was concerning and frankly embarrassing in itself. Then they choose a guy who is a total unknown quantity as a CBO, just as the previous guy was. Then they tell us full throttle and follow it up with a stunningly inactive offseason. It's hard to get a sense they have any clue what they're doing any more.

 

I think it would be quite obvious that having a far more intimate understanding of players and the game and it's nuances would help CBO's identify different things that simple analysts won't. Breslow is clearly very smart. The added actual baseball knowledge certainly won't hurt. But this is beside the point, I was pointing out how different the life experiences Breslow and Bloom have had after Yale and that lumping them together is the kind of lazy crap you see off some of our more excitable posters.

 

On your last point. I don't disagree. As I mentioned yesterday it was clear Werner just spoke out of turn and got too excited. I don't know why it's still being talked about. In terms of having a lesser pool to pick from. I think this the direct result of two things:

 

- Ownership bringing in DD to go big and win, which he did, then sack him; bringing in Bloom to rebuild the farm, trade Mookie and do everything on a budget, which he did, then sack him.

- The looming presence of Cora and his interest in the front office.

 

Point 2 would be a concern. Point 1 would be enough for most sensible people to say 'no thanks'.

 

They seem to want to try the Bloom experiment again (and go back to type) but this time with a man who isn't beset with doubts about his own decisions.

Edited January 14, 2024 by Hitch

[Bellhorn04]

They seem to want to try the Bloom experiment again (and go back to type) but this time with a man who isn't beset with doubts about his own decisions.

 

But they apparently aren't letting Breslow spend much this offseason or letting him trade one of the top 3 prospects. So he's very limited in what he can do. It's ownership that's the problem. Changing CBO's won't change that.

[Hitch]

But they apparently aren't letting Breslow spend much this offseason or letting him trade one of the top 3 prospects. So he's very limited in what he can do. It's ownership that's the problem. Changing CBO's won't change that.

 

Happy to be proven wrong but I've seen no reports saying ownership is barring him from trading any of the top 3. Every report I've seen is saying Breslow isn't keen.

 

We'll see how limited he is in the coming months. It's all guesswork outside of it looks like he has a budget to work to. And even then, no concrete proof is available right now.