Bloom fired

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox under Henry also have a long history of taking a shots at those they dismiss…

 

But the shots almost never come directly from the front office.

 

They're tricky buggers, alright...

[Bellhorn04]

If memory serves, after DD was fired Henry said something about it being unwise to just bring the same team back, like DD did in 2019.

[notin]

But the shots almost never come directly from the front office.

 

They're tricky buggers, alright...

 

Didn’t Henry himself take shots at Nomar after that trade?

[Hugh2]

The stories pass the smell test, that doesn't mean that they don't stink either.

 

Stories can often lack information.

 

How many of his moves that are being criticized now had either the full backing of the front office or even it's complete approval and probable directive (Betts)?

 

It can be both true that Bloom has made decisions that ultimately led to his downturn and at the time had the backing of Henry and maybe even his guidance. But so what, we know this FO will throw people under the bus in a heart beat.

 

It kind of reminds me of when I was a child at 20 years old (yes 20 is still a child) and I was angry at my parents for not pushing me to go to college more. Bloom is gone, at some point Henry is going to have to start looking at himself in the mirror. Or not.

[Bellhorn04]

Didn’t Henry himself take shots at Nomar after that trade?

 

I don't remember that.

[Bellhorn04]

The stories pass the smell test, that doesn't mean that they don't stink either.

 

Stories can often lack information.

 

How many of his moves that are being criticized now had either the full backing of the front office or even it's complete approval and probable directive (Betts)?

 

Blaming Bloom for trading Betts does not pass my smell test.

 

And I'd say Henry has actually taken some responsibility for Betts, although it was phrased as a sort of a lament about "not being able" to sign him to an extension.

[moonslav59]

Blaming Bloom for trading Betts does not pass my smell test.

 

And I'd say Henry has actually taken some responsibility for Betts, although it was phrased as a sort of a lament about "not being able" to sign him to an extension.

 

You wonder how JH can say something like that with a straight face.

 

There is just no way the Betts trade was not an organizational decision. I'm leaning towards the idea that the choice was made without Bloom's opinion even mattering, except on who to trade him to and for what.

 

I know this is an area of contention, and it quickly morphed into a Bloom Basher vs Bloom Apologist divide. To me, it's not even apologizing for Bloom, because there was nothing to apologize for. There has been so many actions and non actions to be critical and highly critical of Bloom over, but there is no need to invent areas that were out of his control (like the betts-Price trade), or largely out of his control (like slashing the budget).

 

I have no problem with his being let go, but let's not join in on throwing him under the bus over things that were not his fault. If that makes me an "apologist," to some, so be it. I don't see it that way.

[Bellhorn04]

You wonder how JH can say something like that with a straight face.

 

There is just no way the Betts trade was not an organizational decision. I'm leaning towards the idea that the choice was made without Bloom's opinion even mattering, except on who to trade him to and for what.

 

I know this is an area of contention, and it quickly morphed into a Bloom Basher vs Bloom Apologist divide. To me, it's not even apologizing for Bloom, because there was nothing to apologize for. There has been so many actions and non actions to be critical and highly critical of Bloom over, but there is no need to invent areas that were out of his control (like the betts-Price trade), or largely out of his control (like slashing the budget).

 

I have no problem with his being let go, but let's not join in on throwing him under the bus over things that were not his fault. If that makes me an "apologist," to some, so be it. I don't see it that way.

 

As you probably know, a credible rumor has emerged that Dombrowski was in talks with the Dodgers about a Betts trade before the 2019 deadline.

[moonslav59]

As you probably know, a credible rumor has emerged that Dombrowski was in talks with the Dodgers about a Betts trade before the 2019 deadline.

 

Yes, but I doubt the talks included Price or half-Price.

 

The decision was made before Bloom even walked in the door. Who we got for Betts had some Bloom influence to some or a major degree, although when only one team would take half-Price, even that is severely limited. Yet, Bloom is still attacked as the one who traded Betts with absolutely no context allowed.

[Hugh2]

Blaming Bloom for trading Betts does not pass my smell test.

 

And I'd say Henry has actually taken some responsibility for Betts, although it was phrased as a sort of a lament about "not being able" to sign him to an extension.

 

Agreed, I think most fans see things this way.

 

In the past I've always thought Henry's ability to seemingly change his mind was an asset, the narrative being put out there now can make one skeptical of that point. I'm still cautiously optimistic about his desire to build a sustainable winning franchise here. But he's on the clock for certain, and unfortunately, he can't fire himself.

[moonslav59]

Agreed, I think most fans see things this way.

 

In the past I've always thought Henry's ability to seemingly change his mind was an asset, the narrative being put out there now can make one skeptical of that point. I'm still cautiously optimistic about his desire to build a sustainable winning franchise here. But he's on the clock for certain, and unfortunately, he can't fire himself.

 

I'm still not so sure it's "unfortunate."

 

1. We don't know who might replace JH, and it could be much worse.

2. JH has gone up and down on spending, and if he goes back up, and like real soon, maybe he can get back into our good graces.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm still not so sure it's "unfortunate."

 

1. We don't know who might replace JH, and it could be much worse.

2. JH has gone up and down on spending, and if he goes back up, and like real soon, maybe he can get back into our good graces.

 

Roger on the "like real soon".

[moonslav59]

Roger on the "like real soon".

 

I've said I am not going to predict he spends big, this winter. I've said that for 2-3 straight winters and been wrong. Even this past winter's large winter budget was a bit deceiving, since we lost guys like Bogey, JD, Nate, Wacha, Hill and Strahm, along with their salaries.

 

While dropping in the team budget ranking might be partially due to more teams starting to spend big, and not resetting in 2023, we could have or should have finished higher than we are, now.

 

[sk7326]

I'm still not so sure it's "unfortunate."

 

1. We don't know who might replace JH, and it could be much worse.

2. JH has gone up and down on spending, and if he goes back up, and like real soon, maybe he can get back into our good graces.

 

The spending will help. But on some basic level, he has operated the front office in terms of expectation and turnover the last decade like a less fun George Steinbrenner.

[moonslav59]

The spending will help. But on some basic level, he has operated the front office in terms of expectation and turnover the last decade like a less fun George Steinbrenner.

 

It has worked, so it's hard for me to choose the unknown over a 4 time ring winner like JH & Co.

 

Those first 30 years of being a Sox fan were "fun" but also painful.

[Bellhorn04]

I've said I am not going to predict he spends big, this winter. I've said that for 2-3 straight winters and been wrong. Even this past winter's large winter budget was a bit deceiving, since we lost guys like Bogey, JD, Nate, Wacha, Hill and Strahm, along with their salaries.

 

While dropping in the team budget ranking might be partially due to more teams starting to spend big, and not resetting in 2023, we could have or should have finished higher than we are, now.

 

 

If I could ask Bloom one question, it would be why he never issued a contract of more than $10 million to a starting pitcher...

[sk7326]

It has worked, so it's hard for me to choose the unknown over a 4 time ring winner like JH & Co.

 

Those first 30 years of being a Sox fan were "fun" but also painful.

 

Oh I think the current ownership just needs to act normal.

 

What is interesting about the history of the Sox - and why the "curse" was so seductive as a mentality was that BASICALLY, between 1967 and 2004 - aside from a couple of Butch Hobson seasons, the team was good! And what was painful came down to Game 7s - it was ever thus.

 

I give Henry the benefit of the doubt mostly - but he has been much more unmoored since cutting loose the original flavor management team.

[Hugh2]

I'm still not so sure it's "unfortunate."

 

1. We don't know who might replace JH, and it could be much worse.

2. JH has gone up and down on spending, and if he goes back up, and like real soon, maybe he can get back into our good graces.

 

The game has also changed. When Henry won those championships he was a big spender. Didn't have to be the biggest but top three for sure.

 

Now, he's not alone at the top with NYY and LAD anymore. There's several other franchises out there spending, everyones spending is up. There's more money in the game.

 

I would have believed he wanted to build the farm and clear out payroll before starting a higher level of spending, in the aim of "sustainable success". It makes sense to switch gears a little bit at the moment, but the only head-scratcher is the contracts given out to guys like Yoshida/Story in that light. Even Devers, The Devers deal feels more and more like a freak-out attempt to appease the Boston fan base after losing out on both Betts and Bogaerts.

[notin]

If I could ask Bloom one question, it would be why he never issued a contract of more than $10 million to a starting pitcher...

 

Really?

 

Mine would be “why did you avoid getting pitching at the last two trade deadlines when the Sox were clearly still in the hunt for the postseason?”

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Oh I think the current ownership just needs to act normal.

 

What is interesting about the history of the Sox - and why the "curse" was so seductive as a mentality was that BASICALLY, between 1967 and 2004 - aside from a couple of Butch Hobson seasons, the team was good! And what was painful came down to Game 7s - it was ever thus.

 

I give Henry the benefit of the doubt mostly - but he has been much more unmoored since cutting loose the original flavor management team.

 

Post of the post-Bloom Era.

[Bellhorn04]

Really?

 

Mine would be “why did you avoid getting pitching at the last two trade deadlines when the Sox were clearly still in the hunt for the postseason?”

 

I think both are valid.

[moonslav59]

If I could ask Bloom one question, it would be why he never issued a contract of more than $10 million to a starting pitcher...

 

He'd probably say they put no limits on what Bloom could spend on pitching.

 

My guess is the real answer is, they did not want to spend large and long on a pitcher, when they knew they were not going all in, yet. You don't sign David Price 3-5 years before you think the window opens. You sign him right at the time you think the window opens.

 

Just my opinion.

 

All the signings over 4 years were just fluff and deceptions. The longer ones, like Story and Yoshi were designed to overlap the upcoming window opening- I HOPE!

[Bellhorn04]

He'd probably say they put no limits on what Bloom could spend on pitching.

 

My guess is the real answer is, they did not want to spend large and long on a pitcher, when they knew they were not going all in, yet. You don't sign David Price 3-5 years before you think the window opens. You sign him right at the time you think the window opens.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I get that idea, but the problem is, it implies Bloom really was being given 5 years.

[moonslav59]

Oh I think the current ownership just needs to act normal.

 

What is interesting about the history of the Sox - and why the "curse" was so seductive as a mentality was that BASICALLY, between 1967 and 2004 - aside from a couple of Butch Hobson seasons, the team was good! And what was painful came down to Game 7s - it was ever thus.

 

I give Henry the benefit of the doubt mostly - but he has been much more unmoored since cutting loose the original flavor management team.

 

'67 was a 7 gamer, too.

 

IMO, the playoff and WS appearances were too far apart to be anything less than painful, but I did stay entertained.

 

BTW, I was entertained this year and last. Many games were exciting and close. It sucks to lose, but I still enjoyed a lot about the 2023 team, especially the younger players and JT.

[moonslav59]

I get that idea, but the problem is, it implies Bloom really was being given 5 years.

 

I think the plan was 5, but they buckled and had to throw blame on someone. It will never be JH who accepts the blame.

 

Sox Nation was not going to accept status quo. They barely accepted Bloom being given year 4.

[Bellhorn04]

'67 was a 7 gamer, too.

 

IMO, the playoff and WS appearances were too far apart to be anything less than painful, but I did stay entertained.

 

BTW, I was entertained this year and last. Many games were exciting and close. It sucks to lose, but I still enjoyed a lot about the 2023 team, especially the younger players and JT.

 

1972 to 2003 brought a whole lot of pain.

 

Any pain we experience now is mild by comparison.

 

Hell, we all kind of shrugged off 2011...

[Dipre]

1972 to 2003 brought a whole lot of pain.

 

Any pain we experience now is mild by comparison.

 

Hell, we all kind of shrugged off 2011...

 

Not on talksox they didn't.

[Bellhorn04]

Not on talksox they didn't.

 

I'm sure. But the effects didn't really linger like they did with, say, 1978.

[moonslav59]

1972 to 2003 brought a whole lot of pain.

 

Any pain we experience now is mild by comparison.

 

Hell, we all kind of shrugged off 2011...

 

I was just a teen in the 70's so that hit me harder than it should have, but man, I was excited and engaged in the team. We had a lot of talent to be excited about. After the purge of Fisk, Lynn, Burly and others, there were some fun teams, but not close to the 70's. Clemens and Boggs was about it for 20 years.

 

I still watched just about every inning of every game I could, but the failures were way worse than now.

 

Bloom's record is close to .500. Ben's was not as bad as some in the 80's and 90's.

 

There is bad and there is awful.

[moonslav59]

I'm sure. But the effects didn't really linger like they did with, say, 1978.

 

No GM came close to doing what Sullivan did to that Sox team of the 70's.