Bloom fired

[Old Red]

Their record on August 1 was 57-50 (a pace for 86 wins). They were 2 games out. They needed to add pitching at the deadline, not sell. And certainly not stand still. One genius repeatedly suggested (re: predicted) Paul Blackburn as a target. Blackburn has a 3.24 ERA across 8 starts since the deadline…

 

They needed to add pitching when the 3 starters went down, which was before Aug 1. Raffy, and Jansen both said they needed to add pitching, but Bloom did nothing.

[Bellhorn04]

Bloom deserved to go, I just think ownership is ultimately responsible for this mess. They don't really know what direction to go in any more, they just keep changing horses.

[Old Red]

Bloom deserved to go, I just think ownership is ultimately responsible for this mess. They don't really know what direction to go in any more, they just keep changing horses.

 

Maybe the Old Gray Mare at the top needs to go.

[notin]

They needed to add pitching when the 3 starters went down, which was before Aug 1. Raffy, and Jansen both said they needed to add pitching, but Bloom did nothing.

 

He had a chance and did nothing, which is why I’ve been saying he should have been fired. He did absolutely nothing at two consecutive trade deadlines when the team was right there in the thick of things and really needed pitching help. Neither Eric Hosmer nor Luis Urias for that bill.

 

Needing help beforehand, while true, don’t mean anyone else is necessarily willing to sell. You cannot make trades alone…

[moonslav59]

They needed to add pitching when the 3 starters went down, which was before Aug 1. Raffy, and Jansen both said they needed to add pitching, but Bloom did nothing.

 

It's not easy filling needs before the deadline. Basically, it's winter or within a week of the deadline for 98% of all trades.

[moonslav59]

He had a chance and did nothing, which is why I’ve been saying he should have been fired. He did absolutely nothing at two consecutive trade deadlines when the team was right there in the thick of things and really needed pitching help. Neither Eric Hosmer nor Luis Urias for that bill.

 

Needing help beforehand, while true, don’t mean anyone else is necessarily willing to sell. You cannot make trades alone…

 

I agree, but why keep saying Hosmer when McGuire was clearly the key addition in '22. Hell, even Pham was more key than Hosmer, and Hosmer was not even the key player returned in that trade- Rosier was.

[moonslav59]

Maybe the Old Gray Mare at the top needs to go.

 

Again, be careful what you wish for. Some of us remember previous owners and shudder to think of who might replace JH.

[mvp 78]

Bloom deserved to go, I just think ownership is ultimately responsible for this mess. They don't really know what direction to go in any more, they just keep changing horses.

 

It's both. Bloom was indecisive. Ownership has its own share of issues (letting Mookie go, overall direction of organization from year to year).

[Maxbialystock]

He had a chance and did nothing, which is why I’ve been saying he should have been fired. He did absolutely nothing at two consecutive trade deadlines when the team was right there in the thick of things and really needed pitching help. Neither Eric Hosmer nor Luis Urias for that bill.

 

Needing help beforehand, while true, don’t mean anyone else is necessarily willing to sell. You cannot make trades alone…

 

I think you and other have over-simplified things. You don't go out and get starters like you're buying groceries at the supermarket. If Kluber and a bunch of other guys have taught us nothing else, it's that the starter market is tricky and, in my opinion, vastly over-priced.

 

I used to listen to a radio show called "Wait, wait, don't tell me" and one Sunday they talked about Whole Foods and how they were joining a coop so that could save up to buy a pear. To me that's the starting pitcher market in MLB.

 

Plus everyone seems to have forgotten that on 1 August Sale was about to return (11 August?), as were Houck and Whitlock. All three were known quantities and paid for.

 

Since roughly August 11, the Sox have pretty much stopped going with reliever starts/games. Even with Paxton out, the Sox rotation right now is Bello, Crawford, Sale, Pivetta, Houck, Pivetta, and Sale--and their WAR's are 4.0, 2.2, 1.6, 1.4, and 1.3.

 

Also, as I have argued far too often, the Sox are about to complete 48 games with just 3 days off--a killer for any pitching staff. Those 48 games end tomorrow, and it's worth noting that in the most recent 8 games the Sox pitching staff has given up 3, 4, 0, 8, 3, 4 (13 innings), 3, and 2 runs.

[moonslav59]

I think you and other have over-simplified things. You don't go out and get starters like you're buying groceries at the supermarket. If Kluber and a bunch of other guys have taught us nothing else, it's that the starter market is tricky and, in my opinion, vastly over-priced.

 

I used to listen to a radio show called "Wait, wait, don't tell me" and one Sunday they talked about Whole Foods and how they were joining a coop so that could save up to buy a pear. To me that's the starting pitcher market in MLB.

 

Plus everyone seems to have forgotten that on 1 August Sale was about to return (11 August?), as were Houck and Whitlock. All three were known quantities and paid for.

 

Since roughly August 11, the Sox have pretty much stopped going with reliever starts/games. Even with Paxton out, the Sox rotation right now is Bello, Crawford, Sale, Pivetta, Houck, Pivetta, and Sale--and their WAR's are 4.0, 2.2, 1.6, 1.4, and 1.3.

 

Also, as I have argued far too often, the Sox are about to complete 48 games with just 3 days off--a killer for any pitching staff. Those 48 games end tomorrow, and it's worth noting that in the most recent 8 games the Sox pitching staff has given up 3, 4, 0, 8, 3, 4 (13 innings), 3, and 2 runs.

 

What's the alternative?

 

Wait for several years for the Sox system to learn how to scout, acquire then develop young pitchers into aces?

 

Its free agency or trades, until that day arrives.

 

Our record with big trades for top pitchers is way better than almost anyone with free agency.

 

I'm thinking we do both (with fingers crossed.)

 

I suggested 3 SP'er, partly because I know the success rate is not great.

 

There is a better chance of getting 3 good SP'ers by acquiring 3 than by acquiring just 2 and hoping we go 2 for 2.

 

I know the odds are long.

Edited September 19, 2023 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

It would be nice for once if that .180-hitting SS would play in a Spring Training game or two and shake the rust off before the season began…

 

Fingers crossed that he'll be able to do that next year!

[mvp 78]

Of course we don't know what the offers were. Hard to see a team taking on $7 mill of salary for 2 months of JD and giving up meaningful prospects too.

 

You don't need a meaningful prospect. Just get under the CBT since you're planning handing out 2 QO's.

[Maxbialystock]

What's the alternative?

 

Wait for several years for the Sox system to learn how to scout, acquire then develop young pitchers into aces?

 

Its free agency or trades, until that day arrives.

 

Our record with big trades for top pitchers is way better than almost anyone with free agency.

 

I'm thinking we do both.

 

All good points. Of course the Sox should do both--develop and trade for/buy.

 

But you have also said you want to go for 5 x $25M, 6 x $25M, and 7 x $25M starters. And you have said the best time to do that is in the offseason and very definitely not o/a August 1.

 

I'm defending Bloom's choices/decisions 7+ weeks ago. I am not disagreeing the Sox must obtain starters from outside their minor league system.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Maxbialystock

[moonslav59]

All good points. Of course the Sox should do both--develop and trade for/buy.

 

But you have also said you want to go for 5 x $25M, 6 x $25M, and 7 x $25M starters. And you have said the best time to do that is in the offseason and very definitely not o/a August 1.

 

I'm defending Bloom's choices/decisions 7+ weeks ago. I am not disagreeing the Sox must obtain starters from outside their minor league system.

 

I said if we spent $80M we can get you 3 pitchers at the prices I gave, plus the minimal cost of a LH'd RP'er.

 

I do want 3 SP'ers, but what I want is not to sign 3, but to trade for 1 or 2, and sign 1 or 2.

 

I'd be happy if we traded for one really good one, signed one rerally good one, then added a better LH'd RP'er and maybe bring Duvall back.

[Maxbialystock]

I said if we spent $80M we can get you 3 pitchers at the prices I gave, plus the minimal cost of a LH'd RP'er.

 

I do want 3 SP'ers, but what I want is not to sign 3, but to trade for 1 or 2, and sign 1 or 2.

 

I'd be happy if we traded for one really good one, signed one rerally good one, then added a better LH'd RP'er and maybe bring Duvall back.

 

I believe the sticking point with JH is the 5, 6, or 7 years in your hypothetical contracts. That's exactly what DD did when he brought in Price and the Sale. Don't those contracts apply for both trades and purchases? So it isn't just an $80M commitment, but a $400M to $560M commitment.

[moonslav59]

I believe the sticking point with JH is the 5, 6, or 7 years in your hypothetical contracts. That's exactly what DD did when he brought in Price and the Sale. Don't those contracts apply for both trades and purchases? So it isn't just an $80M commitment, but a $400M to $560M commitment.

 

What we could do, but it will take the okay from upper management, is trade a really good prospects or two for a cost-controlled, young SP'er with several years of team control, then sign one of the mid 30's pitchers to a 4-5 year deal or an even older one to 2-3 years, and avoid the 6-8 year deals.

 

That's only 2, but at this point, I'm thinking asking for two really good SP'er in one winter is probably too much.

[Old Red]

Again, be careful what you wish for. Some of us remember previous owners and shudder to think of who might replace JH.

 

Like I keep saying that JH is not the same guy when he first bought the Red Sox as he is today. No doubt he’s been a good owner, but the Red Sox didn’t win in 1967, 1975, 1978, or 1986, because of who the owner was.

[mvp 78]

Like I keep saying that JH is not the same guy when he first bought the Red Sox as he is today. No doubt he’s been a good owner, but the Red Sox didn’t win in 1967, 1975, 1978, or 1986, because of who the owner was.

 

It's because Larry Lucchino isn't there to lead the franchise anymore. Larry was there through the hiring of DD. Once things went off the rails in 2019, Henry decided he had enough with the spending and wanted to tighten up the purse strings. He went the TB route (Chaim) and wanted a SUSTAINABLE model where he could pinch a penny but still could stay in contention every year or be close enough to pump ticket sales (we already have their money, what are they gonna do). Unfortunately, this model took too long to develop. Fans ended up staying away. The CBO hired was too tentative and could do a good enough job at staying above .500. We'll see what direction Henry goes with for the next CBO.

[dgalehouse]

Like I keep saying that JH is not the same guy when he first bought the Red Sox as he is today. No doubt he’s been a good owner, but the Red Sox didn’t win in 1967, 1975, 1978, or 1986, because of who the owner was.

 

The owner can spend the bucks to field a contender. When it comes down to post season games, there is nothing the owner can do. It comes down to the manager's moves and the player's performance. Often it comes down to one inning, one pitch, one at bat or one play. Or just a little luck.

[Bellhorn04]

Like I keep saying that JH is not the same guy when he first bought the Red Sox as he is today. No doubt he’s been a good owner, but the Red Sox didn’t win in 1967, 1975, 1978, or 1986, because of who the owner was.

 

Who the owner is has always been important. Harry Frazee, for example.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Plus everyone seems to have forgotten that on 1 August Sale was about to return (11 August?), as were Houck and Whitlock. All three were known quantities and paid for.

.

 

This has been the unspoken truth behind most non-moves of the Bloom Era. If guys are hurt, just wait until they return from the IL. Sale will be back soon, againandagainandagain, and Paxton, Whitlock, Houck, Eovaldi, ERod, Hill, Wacha, Braiser/Taylor/OrtOrtOrt. Schwarber's coming, as soon as his leg heals, and Story will be here, as soon as it's too late to unlose all those early games...

 

That's life in the slow lane.

 

Imagine George Steinbrenner's Yankees suffering an injury to a key guy, and not replacing him in the line-up or on the pitching staff with at least a bonafide big leaguer. Those bad old New Yorkers would never wait around for injured players to return so they could contend again.

[Old Red]

Who the owner is has always been important. Harry Frazee, for example.

 

How could anyone forget him?

[Old Red]

It's because Larry Lucchino isn't there to lead the franchise anymore. Larry was there through the hiring of DD. Once things went off the rails in 2019, Henry decided he had enough with the spending and wanted to tighten up the purse strings. He went the TB route (Chaim) and wanted a SUSTAINABLE model where he could pinch a penny but still could stay in contention every year or be close enough to pump ticket sales (we already have their money, what are they gonna do). Unfortunately, this model took too long to develop. Fans ended up staying away. The CBO hired was too tentative and could do a good enough job at staying above .500. We'll see what direction Henry goes with for the next CBO.

Time will tell, but I’m leaning to an inside job with Cora getting more of a say. Don’t know if that’s what’s best, but what might happen. They only interviewed Bloom last time, and I’m not to sure there is a long line waiting to work for JH.

[Old Red]

This has been the unspoken truth behind most non-moves of the Bloom Era. If guys are hurt, just wait until they return from the IL. Sale will be back soon, againandagainandagain, and Paxton, Whitlock, Houck, Eovaldi, ERod, Hill, Wacha, Braiser/Taylor/OrtOrtOrt. Schwarber's coming, as soon as his leg heals, and Story will be here, as soon as it's too late to unlose all those early games...

 

That's life in the slow lane.

 

Imagine George Steinbrenner's Yankees suffering an injury to a key guy, and not replacing him in the line-up or on the pitching staff with at least a bonafide big leaguer. Those bad old New Yorkers would never wait around for injured players to return so they could contend again.

Toronto lost their SS for a while, so they went out, and got another one. It didn’t work out, but they tried. They lost their closer, so they went out, and got another one, who is now the setup man with the closer back.

[moonslav59]

This has been the unspoken truth behind most non-moves of the Bloom Era. If guys are hurt, just wait until they return from the IL. Sale will be back soon, againandagainandagain, and Paxton, Whitlock, Houck, Eovaldi, ERod, Hill, Wacha, Braiser/Taylor/OrtOrtOrt. Schwarber's coming, as soon as his leg heals, and Story will be here, as soon as it's too late to unlose all those early games...

 

That's life in the slow lane.

 

Imagine George Steinbrenner's Yankees suffering an injury to a key guy, and not replacing him in the line-up or on the pitching staff with at least a bonafide big leaguer. Those bad old New Yorkers would never wait around for injured players to return so they could contend again.

 

How many big trades are made in May or June?

 

I'm not defending Bloom. He could have outbid whoever for Iggy, but it's not easy getting a really good replacement way before the deadline.

[notin]

How many big trades are made in May or June?

 

I'm not defending Bloom. He could have outbid whoever for Iggy, but it's not easy getting a really good replacement way before the deadline.

 

Trades in May are usually for guys like Pablo Reyes (acquired May 12). Most teams don’t even know of their selling that early…

[moonslav59]

Trades in May are usually for guys like Pablo Reyes (acquired May 12). Most teams don’t even know of their selling that early…

 

Yes, that was my point. We got pretty lucky with Reyes.

 

Iggy was added by someone, around that time, but it is extremely rare when a solid player is traded in May or June, yet the same people keep saying, we should have/could have traded for one. (Then, who do we give up?)

 

I do respect the idea of "trying," but for all we know, Bloom tried his ass off, but nobody wanted to trade their SS.

[notin]

Yes, that was my point. We got pretty lucky with Reyes.

 

Iggy was added by someone, around that time, but it is extremely rare when a solid player is traded in May or June, yet the same people keep saying, we should have/could have traded for one. (Then, who do we give up?)

 

I do respect the idea of "trying," but for all we know, Bloom tried his ass off, but nobody wanted to trade their SS.

 

Bloom did have ample opportunity to go get one for himself. Elvis Andrus didn’t sign anywhere for a long time and then took a contract from a team that made him switch positions.

 

And Andrelton Simmons is still available…

[moonslav59]

Bloom did have ample opportunity to go get one for himself. Elvis Andrus didn’t sign anywhere for a long time and then took a contract from a team that made him switch positions.

 

And Andrelton Simmons is still available…

 

Yes, many of us were for signing Andrus, right up to his signing.

 

It seems weird Simmons was not given a shot, but maybe GMs know more than us.

 

In season moves are harder.

[sk7326]

Yes, many of us were for signing Andrus, right up to his signing.

 

It seems weird Simmons was not given a shot, but maybe GMs know more than us.

 

In season moves are harder.

 

I don't think Simmons wants to play much anymore.