9/06 SOX @ Rays 6:40PM ET

[jung]

My take on the ownership attitude regarding the SOX currently is this. JH spent a lot of money and wasted a lot of money in financially allowing the SOX to win 4 championships under his ownership. His current attitude is to make as much money as possible by checking attendance for every home game. He had to re-sign Devers to avoid empty seats at Fenway. So, it's all about giant profits for JH for now and until he eventually sells the team. Cynical, I know, but that's how I view it.

 

My take on ownership is that it considered the Red Sox a cash cow.....thats it. The Red Sox no longer blow up John Henry's dress. He has been there and done that. Even his English league football team is a been there and done that now.

[Bellhorn04]

My take on ownership is that it considered the Red Sox a cash cow.....thats it. The Red Sox no longer blow up John Henry's dress. He has been there and done that. Even his English league football team is a been there and done that now.

 

He's a human being, though (AFAIK), and I think he's embarrassed by the state of the Red Sox. I think we're going to see something newsworthy soon - a spending spree, another CBO canned, rumors of selling the team...

[Bellhorn04]

Not likely? Maybe you should look at the current standings and look at the SOX remaining schedule and look at the SOX starting pitching. And, finally, look at Devers.

 

The Yankems appear to have been re-energized by Dominguez.

 

Yeah, I think they're going to pass us easily and leave us in the basement again.

[mvp 78]

The Yankems appear to have been re-energized by Dominguez.

 

Yeah, I think they're going to pass us easily and leave us in the basement again.

 

If the Sox aren't going to be in the playoffs, may as well get a higher draft pick?

[moonslav59]

The Yankems appear to have been re-energized by Dominguez.

 

Yeah, I think they're going to pass us easily and leave us in the basement again.

 

Easily?

 

They first have to learn how to beat us, but the way we have been playing, we may beat ourselves enough time to hand it to them.

[Bellhorn04]

Easily?

 

They first have to learn how to beat us, but the way we have been playing, we may beat ourselves enough time to hand it to them.

 

Yanks have won 8 of 9. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but that's the way I feel.

[moonslav59]

Yanks have won 8 of 9. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but that's the way I feel.

 

The sweep at HOU was impressive. The 5-1 vs DET pretty good.

 

Certainly, if trends continue, it will be "easy," but one thing about this year is trends are ever-changing.

[Bellhorn04]

The sweep at HOU was impressive. The 5-1 vs DET pretty good.

 

Certainly, if trends continue, it will be "easy," but one thing about this year is trends are ever-changing.

 

Except the Red Sox trend of roller-coastering around the .500 mark. That's been consistent as heck.

[moonslav59]

Except the Red Sox trend of roller-coastering around the .500 mark. That's been consistent as heck.

 

True, although we have not been below .500, since June.

 

More like hoering around 2-4 games above .500 for most of the year.

[Duran Is The Man]

True, although we have not been below .500, since June.

 

More like hoering around 2-4 games above .500 for most of the year.

 

 

 

always the optimist. i see us trending towards a third last place finish in four years. Ben did that and got canned, even though his one winning season was a WS championship. i can't wait to see Bloom in the unemployment line.

[Maxbialystock]

Hard to be an optimist about the Sox right now. The biggest problem is the pitching, but there have also been plenty of games, like last night's, when the pitching was decent but the hitting sucked (or, if you will, the other team's pitching was a lot better).

 

So one more time on my pet theory (or hobby horse, take your pick), that griping about the defense is futile for the simple reason that good bats are more important than good gloves. You can even see that when Cora puts a lineup together: he is always looking for the best combination of bats with hopefully some defensive ability.

 

Here, for example, are DWAR's and OPS's of the worst gloves on the team:

 

Yoshida DWAR -1.2, OPS .806

Casas -1.0, .868

Turner -0.9, .828

Duran -0.4, .828

Duvall -0.3, .891

Devers -0.3, .847

McGuire -0.2, .689

 

Don't forget that moonslav has evidence that those DWAR's overlook a ton of errors that aren't scored that way, so those seven are literally giving games away with their lousy defense.

 

Now here are the good DWAR's with their OPS's--

 

Wong DWAR +1.7, OPS .709

Verdugo +0.9, .790

Story +0.6, .504

 

Story's playing excellent defense and absolutely stinks at the plate. Wong is actually doing OK at the plate, but of course can't catch every game.

 

Dugo is the one player on this team with a good bat and glove, but everybody wants to dump him because he's lazy or whatever.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Maxbialystock

[Maxbialystock]

always the optimist. i see us trending towards a third last place finish in four years. Ben did that and got canned, even though his one winning season was a WS championship. i can't wait to see Bloom in the unemployment line.

 

I disagree with moonslav frequently (even though I know he's far more knowledgeable), but I am thankful for his tendency to be optimistic.

 

You, on the other hand, are spoiled rotten. Where were you during the 86 year curse? John Henry not only ended it, but brought 3 more WS titles to Boston.

 

As you point out, JH has never hesitated to fire a manager (Cora is his 5th) or CBO (Bloom is his 5th). Either or both could get fired this year. However, in their defense, this year's Sox payroll is ranked 15th in MLB, the lowest ranking in the JH era and probably the lowest in 40 years. You get what you pay for--unless, like the Rays, Orioles, and maybe a couple of other franchises, you build a team with your farm system.

 

I think that's what JH and CB are trying to do, but it takes time. I also think JH hates paying huge amounts for pitchers who don't deliver--like Sale and Price. Those are the same two guys who were key members of the Sox best team ever, 2018, but have been worthless since 2019 even though the Sox kept paying both through last year and Sale through next year.

[moonslav59]

always the optimist. i see us trending towards a third last place finish in four years. Ben did that and got canned, even though his one winning season was a WS championship. i can't wait to see Bloom in the unemployment line.

 

It's not being an optimist to show facts that indicate we have been near 2-6 games over .500 than +2 to -2 around it.

 

That's who we have been.

 

Where we think we end up has to do with optimism or pessimism.

[moonslav59]

Hard to be an optimist about the Sox right now. The biggest problem is the pitching, but there have also been plenty of games, like last night's, when the pitching was decent but the hitting sucked (or, if you will, the other team's pitching was a lot better).

 

So one more time on my pet theory (or hobby horse, take your pick), that griping about the defense is futile for the simple reason that good bats are more important than good gloves. You can even see that when Cora puts a lineup together: he is always looking for the best combination of bats with hopefully some defensive ability.

 

Here, for example, are DWAR's and OPS's of the worst gloves on the team:

 

Yoshida DWAR -1.2, OPS .806

Casas -1.0, .868

Turner -0.9, .828

Duran -0.4, .828

Duvall -0.3, .891

Devers -0.3, .847

McGuire -0.2, .689

 

Don't forget that moonslav has evidence that those DWAR's overlook a ton of errors that aren't scored that way, so those seven are literally giving games away with their lousy defense.

 

Now here are the good DWAR's with their OPS's--

 

Wong DWAR +1.7, OPS .709

Verdugo +0.9, .790

Story +0.6, .504

 

Story's playing excellent defense and absolutely stinks at the plate. Wong is actually doing OK at the plate, but of course can't catch every game.

 

Dugo is the one player on this team with a good bat and glove, but everybody wants to dump him because he's lazy or whatever.

 

Max, the evidence is there for you to see. It's there when you watch the games.

 

It's not futile to want to discuss an aspect of the game that has cost us at least 5 games, when we are 5 games from the playoffs. Just because you don't want to hear about it does not make it futile, and again- NOBODY is saying pitching and hitting matter less, yet you keep saying the same thing over and over- like we disagree.

 

BTW, not a single poster wants to "dump" Verdugo. Not one.

[vegasbob]

Max, the evidence is there for you to see. It's there when you watch the games.

 

It's not futile to want to discuss an aspect of the game that has cost us at least 5 games, when we are 5 games from the playoffs. Just because you don't want to hear about it does not make it futile, and again- NOBODY is saying pitching and hitting matter less, yet you keep saying the same thing over and over- like we disagree.

 

BTW, not a single poster wants to "dump" Verdugo. Not one.

 

There would be no point in "dumping" Dugo just to remove him from irritating everyone with his real or imagined motivational issues. The OF situation is getting overcrowded with a mishmash of vets and rookies, including some DH candidates.

 

Yoshi is under contract for 4 more years ; Refsnyder could be moved but is otherwise under contract for 2024 ; Duran is under control therefore is movable ; Rafaela and Abreu are movable and should be factors in ST ; Duvall is a FA expressing interest in returning.

 

Turner may or more likely may not return for 2024, possibly clearing the DH slot for Yoshi; Duvall may not get signed . That leaves 4 players plus Dugo for maximum 4 roster spots.

 

Bloom needs to decide on Duvall ( probably passes) , and then can deal up to 2 of the Refsnyder, Dugo, Duran, Abreu and Rafaela group, along with another player for 1 mid range controllable starter . Of course Cedanne and Wilyer can also be parked at WooSox for awhile awaiting the inevitable injury opening. Dugo at least has a multi-year track record that another GM can better evaluate than the rookies. He will also cost a lot more in his final arb year.

[moonslav59]

There would be no point in "dumping" Dugo just to remove him from irritating everyone with his real or imagined motivational issues. The OF situation is getting overcrowded with a mishmash of vets and rookies, including some DH candidates.

 

Yoshi is under contract for 4 more years ; Refsnyder could be moved but is otherwise under contract for 2024 ; Duran is under control therefore is movable ; Rafaela and Abreu are movable and should be factors in ST ; Duvall is a FA expressing interest in returning.

 

Turner may or more likely may not return for 2024, possibly clearing the DH slot for Yoshi; Duvall may not get signed . That leaves 4 players plus Dugo for maximum 4 roster spots.

 

Bloom needs to decide on Duvall ( probably passes) , and then can deal up to 2 of the Refsnyder, Dugo, Duran, Abreu and Rafaela group, along with another player for 1 mid range controllable starter . Of course Cedanne and Wilyer can also be parked at WooSox for awhile awaiting the inevitable injury opening. Dugo at least has a multi-year track record that another GM can better evaluate than the rookies. He will also cost a lot more in his final arb year.

 

There are posters who have mentioned trading Dugo for equal return, perhaps at another position of higher need or maybe a RH'd OF bat. Dumping a very good player is not what anyone has suggested.

 

He's also had some, let's call them, "attitude incidents."

 

He's a good RF'er on D.

He's a good hitter vs RHPs.

He's got one year of control left.

He has real value to us and to other teams.

[Maxbialystock]

There are posters who have mentioned trading Dugo for equal return, perhaps at another position of higher need or maybe a RH'd OF bat. Dumping a very good player is not what anyone has suggested.

 

He's also had some, let's call them, "attitude incidents."

 

He's a good RF'er on D.

He's a good hitter vs RHPs.

He's got one year of control left.

He has real value to us and to other teams.

 

Not good enough. As the Talksox leading proponent for good Sox defense, you should have said Dugo is the only outfielder on this team with a plus DWAR. In fact, his +0.8 is the second best DWAR on the team after Wong's +1.7.

 

You should be raving about his defense--which we have all seen has included a number of grabs and throws that prevented runs from scoring.

 

With his OPS of .790, Dugo is also the only Sox regular who can in fact play defense and hit the dadgum ball. Everyone with with better offensive stats than Dugo has a negative freaking DWAR.

 

If you really believe defense is important to winning games, you would be insisting Dugo is the only player on this team who is untradeable.

 

Instead, you mention his attitude problem.

[Bellhorn04]

Not good enough. As the Talksox leading proponent for good Sox defense, you should have said Dugo is the only outfielder on this team with a plus DWAR. In fact, his +0.8 is the second best DWAR on the team after Wong's +1.7.

 

You should be raving about his defense--which we have all seen has included a number of grabs and throws that prevented runs from scoring.

 

With his OPS of .790, Dugo is also the only Sox regular who can in fact play defense and hit the dadgum ball. Everyone with with better offensive stats than Dugo has a negative freaking DWAR.

 

If you really believe defense is important to winning games, you would be insisting Dugo is the only player on this team who is untradeable.

 

Instead, you mention his attitude problem.

 

It's not about him not being a good player, though.

 

1) He only has one year of control left. He'll be a free agent after 2024.

2) Raffaela should be taking over center field next year. Duran can play right field instead of Verdugo. Yoshida is in left.

3) We should get something of use in return.

[Maxbialystock]

It's not about him not being a good player, though.

 

1) He only has one year of control left. He'll be a free agent after 2024.

2) Raffaela should be taking over center field next year. Duran can play right field instead of Verdugo. Yoshida is in left.

3) We should get something of use in return.

 

Makes sense. I like Duvall and he has the arm for right field.

[moonslav59]

Not good enough. As the Talksox leading proponent for good Sox defense, you should have said Dugo is the only outfielder on this team with a plus DWAR. In fact, his +0.8 is the second best DWAR on the team after Wong's +1.7.

 

You should be raving about his defense--which we have all seen has included a number of grabs and throws that prevented runs from scoring.

 

With his OPS of .790, Dugo is also the only Sox regular who can in fact play defense and hit the dadgum ball. Everyone with with better offensive stats than Dugo has a negative freaking DWAR.

 

If you really believe defense is important to winning games, you would be insisting Dugo is the only player on this team who is untradeable.

 

Instead, you mention his attitude problem.

 

For one, I don't place total value on a player based on one good year of defense.

I also don't value a player with one year as highly as one with 2, 3 or more.

Yes, his OPS is .790. You act like 7th best is something we need to cling to.

 

Again, I am not "for" trading Dugo, and I'm 200% against DUMPING him. I think Rafaela is a better defender. I think Duvall and Abreu may not be the downgrade on defense in RF, you seem to envision, and no, I don't use BR's dWAR to measure a player's value on D.

 

I've already discussed how our defense should improve without needing to add anyone from outside the system, but I do see trading Dugo, among several other choices as a possible player we could trade in a package and try to improve our pitching- an area we both agree needs serious fixing.

 

If we have to lose a little ground in RF to gain a lot of ground with teh staff, you'll say "It's not good enough.?".

[moonslav59]

It's not about him not being a good player, though.

 

1) He only has one year of control left. He'll be a free agent after 2024.

2) Raffaela should be taking over center field next year. Duran can play right field instead of Verdugo. Yoshida is in left.

3) We should get something of use in return.

 

That's a bad defensive OF.

 

Better yet....

 

DH Yoshida

LF Duran/Ref platoon

CF Rafaela/Abreu (Duran 3rd)

RF Duvall/Abreu (Ref 3rd)

 

or, keep Dugo and trade Duran...

DH: Yoshida

LF: Abreu/Ref (Yoshida)

CF: (Duvall?) Rafaela/Abreu

RF: Dugo/Abreu (Duvall)

[notin]

Makes sense. I like Duvall and he has the arm for right field.

 

Duran-Rafaela-Duvall makes more sense defensively if you’re moving Verdugo. But his one year of control does make him less attractive as a trade target for other teams. Plus he expressed a desire to stay in Boston.

Edited September 8, 2023 by notin

[Maxbialystock]

For one, I don't place total value on a player based on one good year of defense.

I also don't value a player with one year as highly as one with 2, 3 or more.

Yes, his OPS is .790. You act like 7th best is something we need to cling to.

 

Again, I am not "for" trading Dugo, and I'm 200% against DUMPING him. I think Rafaela is a better defender. I think Duvall and Abreu may not be the downgrade on defense in RF, you seem to envision, and no, I don't use BR's dWAR to measure a player's value on D.

 

I've already discussed how our defense should improve without needing to add anyone from outside the system, but I do see trading Dugo, among several other choices as a possible player we could trade in a package and try to improve our pitching- an area we both agree needs serious fixing.

 

If we have to lose a little ground in RF to gain a lot of ground with teh staff, you'll say "It's not good enough.?".

 

Actually, as you well know, while I like defense, especially great defense, I value hitting a whole lot more. Same goes for pitching--way more valuable. Defense is a distant 3d.

[moonslav59]

Actually, as you well know, while I like defense, especially great defense, I value hitting a whole lot more. Same goes for pitching--way more valuable. Defense is a distant 3d.

 

Yes. We all know.

 

I like all our good players, and wish we could keep them all.

 

I wish they could all hit really well and defense real well.

 

I wish we had enough pitchers who could pitch well enough to bring us another ring.

 

Suggesting some trades that might help our staff is not about "dumping" good players or undervaluing them.