Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Yeah, without poor Bob, they wouldn't have had a sniff at that WS. I recall watching the hideous game 7 (none of us knowing that Oil Can had drunk himself into oblivion--or so I hear--and was unavailable), and my friend saying as the string of RS relievers threw it away -- 'Why not Bob Stanley, facrisake!' Btw, is that true about Oil Can? or is that just another one of the stories he so happily made up?

 

Boyd would've started Game Seven, then a rain-out gave Hurst one more day of rest -- and the ball. McNamara, after blowing Game Six by taking out Clemens (and lying about it), didn't dare not pitch his best postseason arm, if available.

 

Boyd admitted once he heard he was replaced, he went straight to a crack house and blew his mind out in the dark. Turns out Hurst on three days rest had five good innings left, before blowing a 3-run lead. Then then bullpen puked all over itself again.

 

My preference that day was to start the Can as planned, and let him go as long as he was effective -- then bring in Hurst to win the ring. The bullpen was already toast and couldn't be trusted no matter what, but Oil Can was a wild card who was whack enough to maybe not let the Game Six debacle bother him. At least in my first guessing...

[Dipre]

You're describing a chronic problem. If a three day period injured a guy harshely enough to derail his career he wouldn't be throwing on it for an additional two years before having surgery, he would have developed an acute injury.

 

A lot of pitchers deal with chronic issues, try to pitch through it, can't get people out, then retire. Sound familiar?

[Hugh2]

A lot of pitchers deal with chronic issues, try to pitch through it, can't get people out, then retire. Sound familiar?

 

Exaclty, that's caused by bad habits and overuse overtime, not a couple days.

 

It's like pinpointing a couple drops in a bucket instead of one. If 3 days derailed his career, and you can pinpoint those 3 days, his elbow would have blown out the next year.

[Dipre]

Exaclty, that's caused by bad habits and overuse overtime, not a couple days.

 

It's like pinpointing a couple drops in a bucket instead of one. If 3 days derailed his career, and you can pinpoint those 3 days, his elbow would have blown out the next year.

 

That's the point. That's not necessarily true. It could be overuse, it could be one bad pitch, you don't know, and neither do I. The problem is you see it as a black-and-white issue, and I'm open to the fact that absolutely anything can happen with something as unnatural as pitching. It doesn't even have to be three days, it may have been a single pitch. Who knows.

[Bellhorn04]

Where did those goal posts go?

 

No one is even asking for indisputable proof. But I do think the standard should be higher than Ironclad Innuendo.

 

Right now the debate is "Francona ruined Foulke in one week" vs "Francona probably added the final straw to an increasingly fragile arm". Sound about right?

 

Sure.

[Bellhorn04]

That's the point. That's not necessarily true. It could be overuse, it could be one bad pitch, you don't know, and neither do I. The problem is you see it as a black-and-white issue, and I'm open to the fact that absolutely anything can happen with something as unnatural as pitching. It doesn't even have to be three days, it may have been a single pitch. Who knows.

 

How many times have we seen pitchers leave a game in mid-inning and then go on the IL? Only all the time. For whatever reason, it was that last pitch they threw that indicated there was something wrong.

[Dipre]

How many times have we seen pitchers leave a game in mid-inning and then go on the IL? Only all the time. For whatever reason, it was that last pitch they threw that indicated there was something wrong.

 

Apparently not.

[Hugh2]

That's the point. That's not necessarily true. It could be overuse, it could be one bad pitch, you don't know, and neither do I. The problem is you see it as a black-and-white issue, and I'm open to the fact that absolutely anything can happen with something as unnatural as pitching. It doesn't even have to be three days, it may have been a single pitch. Who knows.

 

I don't see it as black and white, I see it as chronic and acute injuries, which are two entirely different things. An acute injury isn't going to derail a guys future in several years, it's going to end it or sideline it then and there.

 

If the injury or "3 day event" was significant enough to end his career he would not be pitching on it for years afterwards.

 

those 3 days might have been an example of his overuse, but at the end of the day it's just some of the water in a larger bucket.

[mvp 78]

Foulke blew out his arm when Tek jumped onto him and Foulke held him up at the end of Game 4!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hugh2]

Foulke blew out his arm when Tek jumped onto him and Foulke held him up at the end of Game 4!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

There you go, Tek blew out his elbow not 3 days. Lets' blame him.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Foulke blew out his arm when Tek jumped onto him and Foulke held him up at the end of Game 4!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Joe C. -- knowing how armed Sox' outdoorsmen were with weapons of self-defense -- got a little too excited with his last call at the end, which he blurted out before anyone actually got knifed.

[Hugh2]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/02/dodgers-to-re-sign-ryan-brasier.html

 

why can't we get guys like this????

[Hugh2]

Dodgers giving Braiser 2 years 9 million, with incentives giving him the chance to earn 13 million.

[Dipre]

I don't see it as black and white, I see it as chronic and acute injuries, which are two entirely different things. An acute injury isn't going to derail a guys future in several years, it's going to end it or sideline it then and there.

 

If the injury or "3 day event" was significant enough to end his career he would not be pitching on it for years afterwards.

 

those 3 days might have been an example of his overuse, but at the end of the day it's just some of the water in a larger bucket.

 

Yes you are. Because it seems impossible to even accept the possibility that that's exactly what happened, which it very well could have. We'll never know.

[dgalehouse]

9 year old me is crying in my bunkbed again. FU Bob Stanley.

 

Needing one more out, Schiraldi gave up three straight singles. That's baseball. With any luck, one of those would have been playable and history would have changed. And it also would have changed Stanley and Foulke's place in history.

[mvp 78]

There you go, Tek blew out his elbow not 3 days. Lets' blame him.

 

I think it's the most logical conclusion since he was clearly pitching fine before THE INCIDENT.

[mvp 78]

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2024/02/dodgers-to-re-sign-ryan-brasier.html

 

why can't we get guys like this????

 

Is he a starter now?

[mvp 78]

Needing one more out, XXXXXXXXX gave up three straight singles. That's baseball. With any luck, one of those would have been playable and history would have changed. And it also would have changed Stanley and Foulke's place in history.

 

Explicit content.

[Hugh2]

Yes you are. Because it seems impossible to even accept the possibility that that's exactly what happened, which it very well could have. We'll never know.

 

Human phsyiology is a fairly exact science. There's a distinct difference between an acute injury, and a chronic one.

 

you do not develop a chronic injury in the course of a day or two, you develop it over time E.G. the wear and tear of pitching over the course of years.

 

Acute injuries stop you in your tracks, chronic develop slow over time.

If he had elbow surgery that offseason the argument would be stronger, but even then, I would still say that THAT would be a "the straw that broke the camels back" incident. But he didn't, he had it years later. You can't pinpoint one week in an 11 year career and say "this....this is what caused this chronic problem"

 

If I develop lung cancer tomorrow, I'm not going back to a new years eve party 3 years ago where I smoked a f***-ton of pot. And let me tell you....it was a lot.

[notin]

Sure.

 

Aroldis Chapman was also ridden pretty hard by Joe Maddon in 2016, giving him 97 pitches in the final 3 games after pitching in 2 of the first 4 games. And yet here we are 8 years later and Chapman is still out there getting $10mill contracts.

 

Chapman, despite all his post-season series, simply never shouldered the in-season workload Foulke did for all those other years. Chapman rarely pitched 60 IP in a season, only doing so 3 times in his career, and not at all since 2015. His career high in IP for the regualr eason was 71 with the 2012 Reds. Foulke never threw less than 77 IP between 1999 and 2004, and topped out at 105 IP in 1999. THAT is a big part of the the difference. Not throwing 3 fewer pitches in 3 games...

[dgalehouse]

Explicit content.

 

The randomness of baseball. When you think about it , just one of those three singles being playable changes so much for Schiraldi, Stanley, Buckner and McNamara . And even has an effect on the legacy of guys like Theo , Tito and others. Such is fate.

[mvp 78]

@ChrisCotillo

The Red Sox don't have a finished roster, Sam Kennedy said Monday.

 

“The offseason continues. There’s still a lot of unsigned players and conversations going on. I would anticipate there’s still work to be done.”

[mvp 78]

@ChrisCotillo

The Red Sox don't have a finished roster, Sam Kennedy said Monday.

 

“The offseason continues. There’s still a lot of unsigned players and conversations going on. I would anticipate there’s still work to be done.”

 

Pitching remains a glaring need for Boston, especially in terms of rotation additions. But Kennedy deferred to Breslow when asking about the likelihood of such moves.

 

“Probably a better question for Brez,” Kennedy said. “I don’t want to predict what sort of shape or form any additions or changes could take. But we’re still going.”

[notin]

Pitching remains a glaring need for Boston, especially in terms of rotation additions. But Kennedy deferred to Breslow when asking about the likelihood of such moves.

 

“Probably a better question for Brez,” Kennedy said. “I don’t want to predict what sort of shape or form any additions or changes could take. But we’re still going.”

 

Way to deflect!!

 

“Talk to the guy I won’t let do anything!”

[Hugh2]

I think Brez is still in on Jordan/Blake, although from what we can gather it sounds like it would be Jordan over Blake.

 

Fans won't like to hear this, and have effectively already annointed Bres-slow the next Bloom but in a vaccuum I can't blame him for sitting out an offseason if the price isn't worth it. I try to look at things over the long term horizon and in a basket of seasons and not just any given year. To me, it's the aggregate effect of offseason after offseason after offseason of seemingly doing little to nothing to put together a championship caliber team.

 

I'll pretty much withhold my judgement on him for a year. But I do think it will be interesting if he signs them, because I don't think he will do it out of panic, but rather a caclulation. To be fair, all 30 teams haven't signed these guys so far. So either something is up and we have no chance regardless, or the price is low and Breslow is doing the right thing by waiting it out.

[Bellhorn04]

@ChrisCotillo

The Red Sox don't have a finished roster, Sam Kennedy said Monday.

 

“The offseason continues. There’s still a lot of unsigned players and conversations going on. I would anticipate there’s still work to be done.”

 

Sam is on the comeback trail!

[Bellhorn04]

Aroldis Chapman was also ridden pretty hard by Joe Maddon in 2016, giving him 97 pitches in the final 3 games after pitching in 2 of the first 4 games. And yet here we are 8 years later and Chapman is still out there getting $10mill contracts.

 

Chapman, despite all his post-season series, simply never shouldered the in-season workload Foulke did for all those other years. Chapman rarely pitched 60 IP in a season, only doing so 3 times in his career, and not at all since 2015. His career high in IP for the regualr eason was 71 with the 2012 Reds. Foulke never threw less than 77 IP between 1999 and 2004, and topped out at 105 IP in 1999. THAT is a big part of the the difference. Not throwing 3 fewer pitches in 3 games...

 

Full disclosure: sometimes I exaggerate for dramatic or comic purposes.

 

"Tito ended Foulke's career but it was worth it" is just a fun thing to say. And look at all the entertaining and informative discussion that statement has sparked. It's a win-win.

[notin]

@ChrisCotillo

The Red Sox don't have a finished roster, Sam Kennedy said Monday.

 

“The offseason continues. There’s still a lot of unsigned players and conversations going on. I would anticipate there’s still work to be done.”

 

 

Now there still are 25 unsigned starting pitchers per MLBTR (and including Bauer).

 

Several will already miss some or all of 2024 (Woodruff, Kershaw, Boyd, Odorizzi, Keller)

 

A couple (Urias, Bauer) are PR nightmares.

 

Some (Greinke? Hill? Cueto? Kluber?) might be forced into retirement.

 

Taking out those 11, there are 14 left. Some of whom will fall into the previously mentioned categories…

[mvp 78]

Way to deflect!!

 

“Talk to the guy I won’t let do anything!”

 

It's not me. It's them! - Dustin the Deflector Pedroia

[Bellhorn04]

Now there still are 25 unsigned starting pitchers per MLBTR (and including Bauer).

 

Several will already miss some or all of 2024 (Woodruff, Kershaw, Boyd, Odorizzi, Keller)

 

A couple (Urias, Bauer) are PR nightmares.

 

What about Clevinger - a PR restless dream?