Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Did you the following pitchers are currently in the Tampa bullpen - Jake Diekman, Trevor Kelley and Zack Littell? And earlier this year they had a cameo from Heath Hembree?

 

By now, Bloom must be all pity pedals over the pitching flops he brings to Boston that keep getting transformed into Marvel movies by the sorcerers and alchemists in the indomitable Tampa R&D department.

 

How much would it cost to lure a few geniuses up to New England? How about $10 million dollars -- the next time he wants to sign a Kluber for one year, Chaim could instead lock up a real front office difference maker for a decade.

[notin]

By now, Bloom must be all pity pedals over the pitching flops he brings to Boston that keep getting transformed into Marvel movies by the sorcerers and alchemists in the indomitable Tampa R&D department.

 

How much would it cost to lure a few geniuses up to New England? How about $10 million dollars -- the next time he wants to sign a Kluber for one year, Chaim could instead lock up a real front office difference maker for a decade.

 

 

Based on this response, I’m not so sure you’re all that familiar with Jake Diekman or Trevor Kelley. Or Heath Hembree.

 

Or the Tampa bullpen in general..

[Bellhorn04]

4 ip.

 

It was in response to Cora being faulted for using him.

[notin]

It was in response to Cora being faulted for using him.

 

Cora used him smartly to get Fraley, but didn’t need to trot him out the following inning…

[Maxbialystock]

I don't disagree with this at all, starting pitchers that can go deeper into games saves the bullpen and holds more value. But the game has changed, starting pitchers don't go deep into games like they used too and relief pitchers are throwing more and more innings. Not going deep into games is not hurting the team, bad pitching has. We need more guys out of the bullpen that can go 2-3 and give you good innings. Teams are doing this more and more.

 

Still, you expect to get more out of your starter than 4 innings. But a lot starting pitchers are easily only going 5 innings nowadays. But there's a difference between the average and what you can get. Sometimes you need an ACE who can just go out there and throw 8+ and fully recharge a bullpen.

 

You guys still don't get it. Yes, certainly, Bello only went 4 innings because he control/command sucked. On the other hand, he showed a ton of heart and gave up just 1 run in 4 innings. You guys need to go back and look at all those starts by Sale, Kluber, Houck, Pivetta, Paxton, and even Bello in which they gave up a bunch of runs early and made it really hard for the Sox to come back.

 

Put it this way. Which would you rather have, a starter who went 5 innings and gave up 4-5 runs or 4 innings and 1 run?

[Old Red]

You guys still don't get it. Yes, certainly, Bello only went 4 innings because he control/command sucked. On the other hand, he showed a ton of heart and gave up just 1 run in 4 innings. You guys need to go back and look at all those starts by Sale, Kluber, Houck, Pivetta, Paxton, and even Bello in which they gave up a bunch of runs early and made it really hard for the Sox to come back.

 

Put it this way. Which would you rather have, a starter who went 5 innings and gave up 4-5 runs or 4 innings and 1 run?

 

A starter who goes 7 innings, and gives up 3 runs, or less, or a starter who goes 6 innings, and gives up 2 runs, or less. That to me is a quality start. I could care less about a ton of heart. Throw dam strikes.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Old Red

[Bellhorn04]

A starter who goes 7 innings, and gives up 3 runs, or less, or a starter who goes 6 innings, and gives up 2 runs, or less. That to me is a quality start. I could care less about a ton of heart. Throw dam strikes.

 

I think 5 innings and 2 runs or less should be also be a Quality Start based on the current state of the game.

 

5 innings is all it takes for a starter to qualify for a Win, after all.

[Old Red]

I think 5 innings and 2 runs or less should be also be a Quality Start based on the current state of the game.

 

5 innings is all it takes for a starter to qualify for a Win, after all.

I’m a harder grader than you I guess.

[Hugh2]

I think 5 innings and 2 runs or less should be also be a Quality Start based on the current state of the game.

 

5 innings is all it takes for a starter to qualify for a Win, after all.

 

A quality start is not a “great start” just quality. I too, wonder given the current state of affairs in baseball today if the stat should be changed, or come up with a new one. We can call it “pretty much a quality start”

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Based on this response, I’m not so sure you’re all that familiar with Jake Diekman or Trevor Kelley. Or Heath Hembree.

 

Or the Tampa bullpen in general..

 

What the---? You know better than to question the favorite anagram of talksox: SSS!!!!!

 

(and that doesn't stand for/surf for Silver Surfer Smiled)

[dgalehouse]

A manager has to use the bullpen pitchers that he has available. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It is probably the biggest reason for second guessing.

[notin]

You guys still don't get it. Yes, certainly, Bello only went 4 innings because he control/command sucked. On the other hand, he showed a ton of heart and gave up just 1 run in 4 innings. You guys need to go back and look at all those starts by Sale, Kluber, Houck, Pivetta, Paxton, and even Bello in which they gave up a bunch of runs early and made it really hard for the Sox to come back.

 

Put it this way. Which would you rather have, a starter who went 5 innings and gave up 4-5 runs or 4 innings and 1 run?

 

Heart or not, a starter going deeper only helps the bullpen.

 

A staff will throw roughly 1450 IP per season. Normally a rotation giver 800-900 of those, and the bullpen picks up the rest. So obviously the lesser IP from the starters adds to that 550-650 IP workload that you’re already expecting the pen to handle…

[moonslav59]

I think 5 innings and 2 runs or less should be also be a Quality Start based on the current state of the game.

 

5 innings is all it takes for a starter to qualify for a Win, after all.

 

Hell, at this point, I'll take 3 IP 0 ER or 4 IP 1 ER over 5 or 6 IP and 3-4 ERs.

 

Our pen is deep, and many can go long.

 

We can't have SP'ers going only 3-4 IP, every start, but a few here and there is better than being behind 6-2 in the 6th.

 

[Dipre]

Red Sox starters rank in 2023:

 

25th in IP

7th (!) in K/9

13th in BB/9

28th in HR/9

21st in BABIP

5th in average four seamer velocity

26th in ERA

26th in FIP

29th in exit velocity

 

In essence, they barely provide IP, they throw hard, strike out a lot of guys, don't walk a lot of guys, but they give up a lot of homers and hard contact. Just a mish-mash of inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

[Bellhorn04]

A manager has to use the bullpen pitchers that he has available. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It is probably the biggest reason for second guessing.

 

No question, pitching changes are the biggest source of second guessing.

[mvp 78]

Hell, at this point, I'll take 3 IP 0 ER or 4 IP 1 ER over 5 or 6 IP and 3-4 ERs.

 

Our pen is deep, and many can go long.

 

We can't have SP'ers going only 3-4 IP, every start, but a few here and there is better than being behind 6-2 in the 6th.

 

 

No, there aren't enough guys in the pen to cover 3-4 IP very often. That will run the bullpen ragged and there isn't much help coming from AAA.

[mvp 78]

Red Sox starters rank in 2023:

 

25th in IP

7th (!) in K/9

13th in BB/9

28th in HR/9

21st in BABIP

5th in average four seamer velocity

26th in ERA

26th in FIP

29th in exit velocity

 

In essence, they barely provide IP, they throw hard, strike out a lot of guys, don't walk a lot of guys, but they give up a lot of homers and hard contact. Just a mish-mash of inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

 

And it's the entire staff giving up HR's too. Pivetta and Kluber were absolutely dreadful though averaging over 2 per 9.

[Dipre]

And it's the entire staff giving up HR's too. Pivetta and Kluber were absolutely dreadful though averaging over 2 per 9.

 

They need to revamp this entire pitching staff.

[Old Red]

No, there aren't enough guys in the pen to cover 3-4 IP very often. That will run the bullpen ragged and there isn't much help coming from AAA.

 

That’s been the point I’ve been making the last few days. Even though Bello only gave up 1 run in 4 innings the other night the BP had to pitch 5. Last night they had to pitch 4. It’s been more than a week now that a starter has gone 6. The staff threw 199 pitches just the other night.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Old Red

[Dipre]

That’s been the point I’ve been making the last few days. Even though Bello only gave up 1 run in 4 innings the other night the BP had to pitch 5. Last night they had to pitch 4. It’s been more than a week now that a starter has gone 6.

 

But you singled out Bello, which is why you received the blowback.

[Old Red]

But you singled out Bello, which is why you received the blowback.

 

Because he was pitching that night. I said the same thing about Paxton last night, because he only pitched 5 innings, and the BP had to go 4. I’ll say the same thing tonight too if Sale doesn’t last .

[Dipre]

Because he was pitching that night. I said the same thing about Paxton last night, because he only pitched 5 innings, and the BP had to go 4. I’ll say the same thing tonight too if Sale doesn’t last .

 

And people won't complain, because like Paxton, Sale is a veteran making a ton of money. Context is required.

[Old Red]

And people won't complain, because like Paxton, Sale is a veteran making a ton of money. Context is required.

 

WTF does that have to do with how many innings the BP has to pitch! and how many innings the BP has to pitch is my main point. Nothing more, or nothing less than that. It doesn’t matter to me who causes it to happen.

[Hugh2]

Red Sox starters rank in 2023:

 

25th in IP

7th (!) in K/9

13th in BB/9

28th in HR/9

21st in BABIP

5th in average four seamer velocity

26th in ERA

26th in FIP

29th in exit velocity

 

In essence, they barely provide IP, they throw hard, strike out a lot of guys, don't walk a lot of guys, but they give up a lot of homers and hard contact. Just a mish-mash of inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

 

I wonder how much all those numbers come down if they kept the ball in the yard. Sox pitchers seem to have given up a lot of runs on homer is this year.

[Dipre]

WTF does that have to do with how many innings the BP has to pitch! and how many innings the BP has to pitch is my main point. Nothing more, or nothing less than that. It doesn’t matter to me who causes it to happen.

 

I give up. Book closed on this specific argument anyways. The horse is long dead.

[Dipre]

I wonder how much all those numbers come down if they kept the ball in the yard. Sox pitchers seem to have given up a lot of runs on homer is this year.

 

Only two starting staffs in all of MLB have given up more homeruns than the Red Sox' rotation. Let that sink in.

[moonslav59]

Only two starting staffs in all of MLB have given up more homeruns than the Red Sox' rotation. Let that sink in.

 

Well, it's 6 teams in May. We missed it being 12 teams by 3 HRs.

 

The staff has improved from April, but the bar was so low, it was probably impossible not to.

 

We need to see bigger steps up in June or July, or we'll be sellers in August.

 

It's- not easy staying optimistic in times like this, but I'll try...

 

1. The addition by subtraction idea

No Brasier 7.29 (not SP)

Probably no more from Ort 7.30 (not SP)

Much less from Pivetta 5.66

Much less from Kluber 6.26

Maybe much less from Bleier 5.85 (not SP)

 

These guys totalled 145 IP or about 30% or our IP, this year. (Over 20% from just SP'ers.)

 

2. Of all our 5 SP'ers candidates at the start of the year, the two I felt were probably the best pitchers based on skills were MAYBE Whitlock & Houck, and these two are the two with the worst ERA of the 5. I'm still hopeful they can make great strides in June and July.

May ERAs:

1.80 Whitlock (just 5 IP)

2.42 Sale

2.67 Bello

4.26 Paxton

I'm sticking with my belief I've held since April, our rotation could have been much better had we added an ace, but it is not as bad as people think. It also has serious upside potential.

 

3. As much as Wink and Craw have looked human, of late, their May numbers are still nice:

2.84 Crawford

3.14 Winkowski

 

They may end up starting at some point. I'm not trying to convince the nay-sayers. It's all to easy to be a pessimist, these days.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by moonslav59

[Dipre]

You're including a bunch of relievers when the list was specifically about the starting staff.

[moonslav59]

You're including a bunch of relievers when the list was specifically about the starting staff.

 

Yes, I got off track. I'll go back and remove.

[Maxbialystock]

Because he was pitching that night. I said the same thing about Paxton last night, because he only pitched 5 innings, and the BP had to go 4. I’ll say the same thing tonight too if Sale doesn’t last .

 

The Sox have had a surfeit of days off over the last 2 weeks--one before, one during, and one after the West Coast trip. Does that count for nothing?

 

These days every time Jansen pitches he looks rusty--because he is.

 

And please name me a team whose rotation averages 6 freaking innings per start.

 

All that said, the Sox play four vs the Rays in the next 3 days, so all that relief pitching tonight, last night, and the night before has probably taken a toll.

 

Nevertheless, when the Sox play two on Saturday my candidate to start the other game is Pivetta, who threw 54 pitches last Sunday (6 days back from this Saturday) 13 yesterday and 15 tonight.

 

If Sale's shoulder puts him on the IL, Pivetta is the obvious choice to rejoin the rotation.