Devers signs 11 year $331 million extension

[Old Red]

That's kinda been my point about Vaz, all along. (See my most recent post.)

 

Vaz was hitting over .750 when he joined the Astros, while Maldy was under .590. I guess how you handle a staff counts for more than that. Many disagree.

 

You still don’t get it! What Vaz ended up doing for the Astros had nothing to do with the fact that Vaz was the #1 C for the Red Sox.

[moonslav59]

It’s definitely a debatable topic, but it worked out for Astros

 

Or course it is. It is also not the only factor in determining the defensive value of a catcher. There is also framing, blocking bad pitchers and arm strength and accuracy.

 

I do find it rather telling that the top 7 pitchers by IP on the Sox since 2014 all did better with someone not named Vaz with 6 of the 7 by a wide margin.

 

People can call it luck, but the sample sizes are large enough to convince me he has issues in this area. I'm hopeful the gains we can make in this area can outweigh the loss of his bat and other plusses he brought to the team and clubhouse.

[notin]

I know why the Astros did the trade. I was just defending Vazquez, who I think we all know isn’t actually a backup, he is clearly a top 30 catcher and a starter in this league. Maldonado is just one of those weird cases where stat wise he looks bad, but pitchers and teammates love him and he does a phenomenal job of calling games, framing, defense and etc. don’t even think Astros care if he hit at all.

 

I agree with you. Just quoted your post because it was last and on topic.

 

Vazquez didn’t get a $30mill contract because the Twins see him as a backup…

[moonslav59]

You still don’t get it! What Vaz ended up doing for the Astros had nothing to do with the fact that Vaz was the #1 C for the Red Sox.

 

Can you read? I admitted I pushed it with that statement. I know full well he was our starting catcher every year since 2016.

 

Try taking a reading comprehension course online. It might help.

 

Yes, my statement had nothing to do with him being the starting catcher for the Sox, but it did have something to do with my point that he ended the season as a back-up. It's two separate issues, but I know you have difficulties handling two thoughts at the same time.

[moonslav59]

I agree with you. Just quoted your post because it was last and on topic.

 

Vazquez didn’t get a $30mill contract because the Twins see him as a backup…

 

Very true.

 

Let's see how he does with their staff.

 

BTW, I would not have mined us signing him back, but just not at that money.

 

If we did have him on our 2023 roster, I would not be so sure I'd want him starting more games than McGuire, but only because I'm not sure how well McGuire handles a staff. He started out poorly, last summer.

[Old Red]

Can you read? I admitted I pushed it with that statement. I know full well he was our starting catcher every year since 2016.

 

Try taking a reading comprehension course online. It might help.

 

Yes, my statement had nothing to do with him being the starting catcher for the Sox, but it did have something to do with my point that he ended the season as a back-up. It's two separate issues, but I know you have difficulties handling two thoughts at the same time.[/quote

I don’t need any reading comprehension course. Only you would make any kind of big deal out of this. The Astros already had their #1 C that the pitchers liked throwing to, and I don’t think it would have mattered who the Astros would have acquired as a C that he still would have been the backup just like Vaz was, so Vaz being the backup didn’t mean anymore than that much to your theory, and chagrin.

[moonslav59]

Can you read? I admitted I pushed it with that statement. I know full well he was our starting catcher every year since 2016.

 

Try taking a reading comprehension course online. It might help.

 

Yes, my statement had nothing to do with him being the starting catcher for the Sox, but it did have something to do with my point that he ended the season as a back-up. It's two separate issues, but I know you have difficulties handling two thoughts at the same time.[/quote

I don’t need any reading comprehension course. Only you would make any kind of big deal out of this. The Astros already had their #1 C that the pitchers liked throwing to, and I don’t think it would have mattered who the Astros would have acquired as a C that he still would have been the backup just like Vaz was, so Vaz being the backup didn’t mean anymore than that much to your theory, and chagrin.

 

I made a simple point and admitted I pushed the envelope by pointing out he ended the season as a back-up.

 

Who made this into a big deal?

[Old Red]

 

I made a simple point and admitted I pushed the envelope by pointing out he ended the season as a back-up.

 

Who made this into a big deal?

 

To me the question is why did you jump so quick to say Vaz was just a backup in Houston when it had nothing to do with the FACT that Vaz was the #1 C on the Red Sox, and still would be today if he was on the roster with the other two backup C the Red Sox have on the roster at the moment.

[moonslav59]

The same way it mattered that pitchers preferred to pitch to Maldy over Vaz, they MIGHT prefer McGuire over the 2023 Vaz.

 

They MIGHT end up doing better.

 

It's a worthy point to bring up in the context of comparing 2022 to what MIGHT be expected in 2023.

 

Okay, I overstated the "back-up" tag on Vaz. He was never the back-up here, except for Sale and Porcello. Saying he was did not help the point I was trying to make. He will not be a back up on the Twins.

 

We MIGHT end up doing better with McGuire and Wong than Vaz and Plawecki.

 

Vaz was a good hitting catcher, while Plawecki sucked on O but seemed to do well with the staff. Maybe McGuire and Wong can do well with the staff and hit b etter than they have, so far in their rather short careers.

 

[Old Red]

The same way it mattered that pitchers preferred to pitch to Maldy over Vaz, they MIGHT prefer McGuire over the 2023 Vaz.

 

They MIGHT end up doing better.

 

It's a worthy point to bring up in the context of comparing 2022 to what MIGHT be expected in 2023.

 

Okay, I overstated the "back-up" tag on Vaz. He was never the back-up here, except for Sale and Porcello. Saying he was did not help the point I was trying to make. He will not be a back up on the Twins.

 

We MIGHT end up doing better with McGuire and Wong than Vaz and Plawecki.

 

Vaz was a good hitting catcher, while Plawecki sucked on O but seemed to do well with the staff. Maybe McGuire and Wong can do well with the staff and hit b etter than they have, so far in their rather short careers.

 

 

And back to the original point that started all this off that I believe the Red Sox have a lot more ??? than they do answers at this point, and that’s why at the moment I’m not predicting that many more wins, and there is nothing wrong with thinking that.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Old Red

[moonslav59]

And back to the original point that started all this off that I believe the Red Sox have a lot more ??? than they do answers at this point, and that’s why at the moment I’m not predicting that many more wins, and there is nothing wrong with thinking that.

 

No, there is not. I know many of the areas I projected gains are question marks and even big question marks. That doesn't change the fact that most positions do look better, on paper, even if it's speculative.

 

The point was not meant to force anyone into thinking we will be any better. I was curious, where anyone specifically disagreed with my projections- position b y position, but nobody is forced to answer that.

 

We can choose to be optimistic about projected improvements or focus on the speculative nature of wondering about 2023. Just how good will Yoshida be? Is Turner over the hill, or was his nice finish to 2022 a sign he's still got it? Just how many innings will Kluber, Sale and Paxton throw? All huge questions. How well will Bello's sophomore season go? Can Whitlock excel as a starter over a full season? Can Story and Kike bounce back? Who plays 2B and SS? Can McGuire and Wong do well enough to not make our catc hing position a loss? Can the improved pen that many felt was the key to our losing so much in 2022 help turn so many losses into wins in 2023?

 

Yes, soooooo many questions. (We are not alone in having many Qs.)

[Jasonbay44]

I honestly think the biggest factor this season is going to be health of the rotation, obviously any team could say this, but I think it’s especially true with this rotations injury history/ages.

[notin]

I honestly think the biggest factor this season is going to be health of the rotation, obviously any team could say this, but I think it’s especially true with this rotations injury history/ages.

 

The biggest comforting factor there is the Sox do have more depth this season.

 

Bello, Mata, Crawford, Walter, Winckowski, and Murphy are all lined up for starts if/when any of Sale/Paxton/Kluber/Whitlock/Pivetta go down. That’s much greater depth than last year, when the lack of depth became exposed before the season.

 

The best way to further enhance this depth would be to add another RP or two, preferably from the shockingly still unemployed set of Andrew Chafin, Michael Fulmer and Reyes Moronta…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The biggest comforting factor there is the Sox do have more depth this season.

 

Bello, Mata, Crawford, Walter, Winckowski, and Murphy are all lined up for starts if/when any of Sale/Paxton/Kluber/Whitlock/Pivetta go down. That’s much greater depth than last year, when the lack of depth became exposed before the season.

 

The best way to further enhance this depth would be to add another RP or two, preferably from the shockingly still unemployed set of Andrew Chafin, Michael Fulmer and Reyes Moronta…

 

I was in on Chafin early in the offseason, and then I saw that he opted out of his contract. We know what that means: he'd want too many years in Boston than Bloom would want him in Boston.

 

 

Calling Dombro, calling Cohen, calling Mickey D's!

[notin]

I was in on Chafin early in the offseason, and then I saw that he opted out of his contract. We know what that means: he'd want too many years in Boston than Bloom would want him in Boston.

 

 

Calling Dombro, calling Cohen, calling Mickey D's!

 

He opted out of 1 year at $6.5mill. He might only be looking for a second guaranteed year at whatever his rate is…

[jacksonianmarch]

"The guys you lost".

 

We lost one guy who had a good season last year, one guy with an fWAR above 1.8-Bogey, and he would have cost in the high 20's to retain.

 

You lost Wacha and Eovaldi from your rotation and added back Kluber, who isn’t very good.

 

You lost a generational talent at a premier position and replaced him with a DH

 

You lost your DH, who was still good and replaced him with nobody

 

And your team won 78 games last year in a buzzsaw division.

 

Baseball is a funny sport in that the best team wins 60% of the time and some years mediocre teams make runs and go to the POs. But the Sox are built to be doormats again without some heavy additions

[notin]

You lost Wacha and Eovaldi from your rotation and added back Kluber, who isn’t very good.

 

You lost a generational talent at a premier position and replaced him with a DH

 

You lost your DH, who was still good and replaced him with nobody

 

And your team won 78 games last year in a buzzsaw division.

 

Baseball is a funny sport in that the best team wins 60% of the time and some years mediocre teams make runs and go to the POs. But the Sox are built to be doormats again without some heavy additions

 

Is Bogaerts really a “generational talent” at shortstop? Excellent player? Absolutely. But I think that term might be getting thrown around a bit liberally…

[Jasonbay44]

You lost Wacha and Eovaldi from your rotation and added back Kluber, who isn’t very good.

 

You lost a generational talent at a premier position and replaced him with a DH

 

You lost your DH, who was still good and replaced him with nobody

 

And your team won 78 games last year in a buzzsaw division.

 

Baseball is a funny sport in that the best team wins 60% of the time and some years mediocre teams make runs and go to the POs. But the Sox are built to be doormats again without some heavy additions

 

How is replacing JD with Justin Turner “nobody”?

 

JD wasn’t very good last season and Turner wouldn’t have to do much to replace his production. We aren’t losing prime JD, we’re losing 2022 JD.

[Bellhorn04]

You lost Wacha and Eovaldi from your rotation and added back Kluber, who isn’t very good.

 

Wow, how can anyone argue with such detailed analysis.

[Hugh2]

How is replacing JD with Justin Turner “nobody”?

 

JD wasn’t very good last season and Turner wouldn’t have to do much to replace his production. We aren’t losing prime JD, we’re losing 2022 JD.

 

Good point, might I add, we are technically losing 2023 JD. If his drop-off in 2022 continues into 2023 he's barely a regular anymore.

[moonslav59]

You lost Wacha and Eovaldi from your rotation and added back Kluber, who isn’t very good.

 

You lost a generational talent at a premier position and replaced him with a DH

 

You lost your DH, who was still good and replaced him with nobody

 

And your team won 78 games last year in a buzzsaw division.

 

Baseball is a funny sport in that the best team wins 60% of the time and some years mediocre teams make runs and go to the POs. But the Sox are built to be doormats again without some heavy additions

 

You lost Wacha and Eovaldi from your rotation and added back Kluber, who isn’t very good. Are we losing the 2018 or 2021 Nate of the "other Nate?" We are also "adding" up to 20 starts from Whitlock and another 20 from Bello.

 

You lost a generational talent at a premier position and replaced him with a DH. It's not going to be hard to replace Bogey's D, and Yoshida does not have to hit as well as Bogey to help this year's O be better than 2022's.

 

You lost your DH, who was still good and replaced him with nobody. Our DH position hit .765 in 2022. Turner can do that in his sleep and is hardly a "nobody."

 

And your team won 78 games last year in a buzzsaw division. And now we don't have to play them as much.

 

Baseball is a funny sport in that the best team wins 60% of the time and some years mediocre teams make runs and go to the POs. But the Sox are built to be doormats again without some heavy additions. We made heavy additions in the pen and have something we haven't seen in a while: YOUTH!

[moonslav59]

How is replacing JD with Justin Turner “nobody”?

 

JD wasn’t very good last season and Turner wouldn’t have to do much to replace his production. We aren’t losing prime JD, we’re losing 2022 JD.

 

If Turner is a "nobody," then so is JD:

 

2022

.788 Turner (.858 after May 16th)

.790 JD M (.698 after May 29th and .759 after May 16th)

 

2021-2022:

.811 Turner (40 HRs 168 RBI)

.820 JD M (44 Hrs 161 RBI)

 

2020-2022:

.818 Turner (.282 44 191)

.805 JD M (.269 51 188)

 

2019-2022

.836 Turner (.284 71 258)

.846 JD M (.280 87 293)

 

You have to go back to 2018 to make the sample size sway heavily to JD's side.

[mvp 78]

You lost Wacha and Eovaldi from your rotation and added back Kluber, who isn’t very good.

 

You lost a generational talent at a premier position and replaced him with a DH

 

You lost your DH, who was still good and replaced him with nobody

 

And your team won 78 games last year in a buzzsaw division.

 

Baseball is a funny sport in that the best team wins 60% of the time and some years mediocre teams make runs and go to the POs. But the Sox are built to be doormats again without some heavy additions

 

Kluber is better than Eovaldi or Wacha.

 

Turner is as good as JD is today. JD has fallen off mightily.

 

The issue is they replaced Xander with a big question mark. I don’t see Yoshida as the replacement. Mayer would be the replacement in 2024.

[mvp 78]

Wow, how can anyone argue with such detailed analysis.

 

And Sale will probably be as good as 2023 Eovaldi or Wacha at least.

[Old Red]

And Sale will probably be as good as 2023 Eovaldi or Wacha at least.

 

He has to stay on the mound first, and that’s bigger than a big if.

[notin]

And Sale will probably be as good as 2023 Eovaldi or Wacha at least.

 

Eovaldi and Wacha combined for 43 starts. If the Sox get 43 combined starts out of Sale and Paxton, that should be a marked improvement…

[Old Red]

Eovaldi and Wacha combined for 43 starts. If the Sox get 43 combined starts out of Sale and Paxton, that should be a marked improvement…

 

It’s amazing to me how anyone can predict anything from Sale even if he does stay on the mound let alone anything good, which he hasn’t been since early 2018.

[moonslav59]

He has to stay on the mound first, and that’s bigger than a big if.

 

Same was true of Nate and Wacha, before and during 2022.

[moonslav59]

It’s amazing to me how anyone can predict anything from Sale even if he does stay on the mound let alone anything good, which he hasn’t been since early 2018.

 

Sale's 147 IP in 2019 was more than Nate's in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2022 plus more than Nate's 2019 + 2020 combined.

 

Sale's 147 IP in 2019 is more than any season by Wacha since his 165 in 2017.

 

Maybe, you meant to say 2019.

[moonslav59]

If Wacha, Nate, and JD were so great, why did we finish in last place?

 

Only Wacha really pulled his weight, and it may have been with smoke and mirrors.