Corey Kluber signs with Red Sox

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe they start, but both of them have started and neither exactly dazzled in the rotation either.

 

Kluber was a very low risk gamble that didn’t work out. I don’t mind that they signed him. They needed rotation help and he certainly has a long history of being a successful starter. But I’m also glad it was only for one year and glad they removed him from the rotation…

 

The real risk is that we have injuries to the current starting 5 and Kluber has to start again...

[notin]

The real risk is that we have injuries to the current starting 5 and Kluber has to start again...

 

And will people overreact to one start from Kluber? Like they did for one start at shortstop from Dalbec? Even if the Sox win Kluber’s start?

[Bellhorn04]

And will people overreact to one start from Kluber? Like they did for one start at shortstop from Dalbec? Even if the Sox win Kluber’s start?

 

Nice volley of rhetorical questions.

 

Obviously the concern is that Kluber has to make multiple more starts and continues to allow 6 runs per 9 innings. Of course they would probably DFA him, but that doesn't really make it a win.

[Maxbialystock]

I'm sorry, gang, but I think this entire thread is just silly.

 

I do not disagree Kluber is a bust, $10M down the drain. But even my weak memory remembers some much worse and far more expensive deals in the past. You do too.

 

But the real silliness is contributing to a thread that seems not to be aware that right now the Sox have the best rotation they've had in years: Sale, Bello, Paxton, Houck, and Whitlock. Plus Winck, Crawford, Martin, Schreiber (when he returns), Jansen, and Garza to back them up. Kluber and Pivetta can long relieve in games the Sox are sure of winning or sure of losing--or be sent packing.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm sorry, gang, but I think this entire thread is just silly.

 

I do not disagree Kluber is a bust, $10M down the drain. But even my weak memory remembers some much worse and far more expensive deals in the past. You do too.

 

But the real silliness is contributing to a thread that seems not to be aware that right now the Sox have the best rotation they've had in years: Sale, Bello, Paxton, Houck, and Whitlock.

 

Bello 4.08

Sale 4.72

Houck 4.99

Whitlock 5.14

Paxton 5.14

 

Now who's silly?

 

I realize these guys have a good shot on improving those numbers, but I wouldn't get high and mighty about others being silly by talking about Kluber.

[notin]

Nice volley of rhetorical questions.

 

Obviously the concern is that Kluber has to make multiple more starts and continues to allow 6 runs per 9 innings. Of course they would probably DFA him, but that doesn't really make it a win.

 

I would imagine he’s behind Pivetta on the depth chart…

[Bellhorn04]

I would imagine he’s behind Pivetta on the depth chart…

 

They've been about equally dreadful.

[notin]

They've been about equally dreadful.

 

Pivetta hasn’t lost speed on his fastball and isn’t at the point in his career where slumps turn into retirement. I have more faith in him bouncing back…

[moonslav59]

You're being a bit selective, considering that Kluber threw a grand total of 116 innings for the years 2019-2021. If we only use 2022, Carlos Rodon has no injury concerns either.

 

Very true, but pitchers are often signed based on just last year.

 

Also, 298 IP from 2019-2021 is not all that great, either (Nate.)

285 (Wacha) is not great, either. Both better but not great.

 

2019-2022

413 Wacha

407 Nate

281 Kluber

 

BTW, starting this chosen sample size right after Kluber led the league in IP (2018) could be considered cherry-picking.

 

No doubt, after about a third of the season is over, both Nate and Wacha look like way better signings. They will likely end the season way better, too.

 

I had hoped we'd have brought Wacha back, but I think the QO and added draft pick for Nate was the prudent thing to do, at the time.

[moonslav59]

What does that have to do with the injury point?

 

All three are injury prone. One year deals with injury prone pitchers seems better than longer ones.

[moonslav59]

I'm sorry, gang, but I think this entire thread is just silly.

 

I do not disagree Kluber is a bust, $10M down the drain. But even my weak memory remembers some much worse and far more expensive deals in the past. You do too.

 

But the real silliness is contributing to a thread that seems not to be aware that right now the Sox have the best rotation they've had in years: Sale, Bello, Paxton, Houck, and Whitlock. Plus Winck, Crawford, Martin, Schreiber (when he returns), Jansen, and Garza to back them up. Kluber and Pivetta can long relieve in games the Sox are sure of winning or sure of losing--or be sent packing.

 

I think the anger over the Kluber signing goes beyond just Kluber. It's also about not really adding anyone else.

 

I will add that because none of us wanted to count on even one start from Sale or Paxton, the fact was both were looking like they could and would be healthy, and Bloom did count on them. He also counted on recently injured Bello, Houck and Whitlock. He also counted on Crawford and Wink as reserves. He did not totally drop the ball, but I am firmly in the camp of those who felt he should have done better with his one addition or added two capable starters, last winter.

[Bellhorn04]

One thing I had forgotten to check was Kluber's H-R splits last year:

 

TropDome 3.71 ERA 1.09 WHIP

Road 5.05 ERA 1.36 WHIP

 

[notin]

One thing I had forgotten to check was Kluber's H-R splits last year:

 

TropDome 3.71 ERA 1.09 WHIP

Road 5.05 ERA 1.36 WHIP

 

 

 

I bet you also didn’t check Eovaldi’s home road splits from last year.

 

Fenway : 5.26ERA 1.48WHIP

Away: 2.64ERA 1.02WHIP

[Hugh2]

The Kluber signing was fine at the time, if he was pitching as good as he was last year no one would be complaining about him.

 

It's ok. It's also ok to be upset that a signing didn't work out as intended. Last year's pitching market was thin and the high end of it was filled with age and injury risk. Verlander was older, DeGrom was an accident waiting to happen, and only 2 years younger than Kluber.

 

I think you can critique Bloom for building this pitching staff, that's fair because he's been here for 3 years now, but I think it's also fair to recognize last years market was not the year to do it. I'd expect bigger things next year in a much more robust pitching m

arket. Also, if "developing" homegrown pitching is the goal.....that takes more than 3 years. Still, looking at the pipeline there does not seem to be too many exciting guys on the farm unless someone pops.

[Bellhorn04]

I bet you also didn’t check Eovaldi’s home road splits from last year.

 

Fenway : 5.26ERA 1.48WHIP

Away: 2.64ERA 1.02WHIP

 

Smaller samples!

[Bellhorn04]

The Kluber signing was fine at the time, if he was pitching as good as he was last year no one would be complaining about him.

 

The question I have now is whether he actually pitched good last year.

 

A 4.34 ERA for a guy who pitches in a pitcher's park didn't use to be considered good at all.

 

He had a 3.0 fWAR because of a 3.57 FIP, I guess. But I question whether fWAR for a pitcher is all that reliable. His bWAR was 0.8, which sucks for that number of innings.

[Hugh2]

The question I have now is whether he actually pitched good last year.

 

A 4.34 ERA for a guy who pitches in a pitcher's park didn't use to be considered good at all.

 

He had a 3.0 fWAR because of a 3.57 FIP, I guess. But I question whether fWAR for a pitcher is all that reliable. His bWAR was 0.8, which sucks for that number of innings.

 

Average ERA was 4.27 last year. I think that would be very welcomed on this team for 164 innings. 150 innings is the new 200. But his WHIP and FIP and BB/9 were well above average. If he gave us this year what he gave last year that would be fine. He'd look great in the 3-5 role on this team. Not the "Upside" we were promised but for what he was and for $10 mil whatever, he's fine. Well he's not fine he sucks, but the signing itself wasn't bad. It just didn't work out. Stands out more when the overall team you built isn't that great either.

Edited June 5, 2023 by A Red Sox fan named Hugh

[mvp 78]

One thing I had forgotten to check was Kluber's H-R splits last year:

 

TropDome 3.71 ERA 1.09 WHIP

Road 5.05 ERA 1.36 WHIP

 

 

I think it's because his two biggest blowouts were on the road:

 

@LAA 3 INN, 8 ER

@NYY 0.2 INN, 6 ER

 

Two outings can really skew a sample if you're only looking at 15 starts.

[mvp 78]

The question I have now is whether he actually pitched good last year.

 

A 4.34 ERA for a guy who pitches in a pitcher's park didn't use to be considered good at all.

 

He had a 3.0 fWAR because of a 3.57 FIP, I guess. But I question whether fWAR for a pitcher is all that reliable. His bWAR was 0.8, which sucks for that number of innings.

 

He pitched to contact and had a decent defense behind him. Now he has the Boston Red Sox behind him and is pitching worse. It's a f***ing nightmare scenario.

[mvp 78]

I bet you also didn’t check Eovaldi’s home road splits from last year.

 

Fenway : 5.26ERA 1.48WHIP

Away: 2.64ERA 1.02WHIP

 

Look at his home/away splits this year.

 

3.38 Home

1.49 Away

[Dipre]

He pitched to contact and had a decent defense behind him. Now he has the Boston Red Sox behind him and is pitching worse. It's a f***ing nightmare scenario.

 

I keep preaching this point. The Sox' pitching staff would look much better overall with a good D behind it, although their penchant for giving up HR's doesn't help, it's certainly not alleviated by the amount of baserunners that get on because of bad defense.

[notin]

Look at his home/away splits this year.

 

3.38 Home

1.49 Away

 

No one is questioning his performance this year.

 

But the Eovaldi that the Sox had to choose to extend was coming off a year of 109 IP and a lofty Fenway ERA. Somehow they apparently (per MLBTR) did offer him a multiyear deal anyway, but probably for less than Texas did. Apparently his deal with Texas can reach 3yrs $63mil with incentives and Eovaldi chose to bet on himself. But I doubt he sees them since he would need to reach 300 IP in the next two years and he hasn’t accomplished reached that total over a 2 year stretch like since 2015.

 

I’ve been saying it since his first contract with Boston - the issues with Eovaldi have nothing to do with his talent. And on a staff that already has Sale and Paxton - two other deals in wasn’t wild about - adding another high injury risk pitcher is just asking for trouble…

[notin]

The question I have now is whether he actually pitched good last year.

 

A 4.34 ERA for a guy who pitches in a pitcher's park didn't use to be considered good at all.

 

He had a 3.0 fWAR because of a 3.57 FIP, I guess. But I question whether fWAR for a pitcher is all that reliable. His bWAR was 0.8, which sucks for that number of innings.

 

There’s a fair point about the difference in the metrics.

 

But also, even if he did pitch well last year, at Kluber’s age, health history, and mileage, a sudden drop off wouldn’t be a surprising result either. He was a risk just like Eovaldi and Wacha, but he was at least just a one year risk…

[mvp 78]

I keep preaching this point. The Sox' pitching staff would look much better overall with a good D behind it, although their penchant for giving up HR's doesn't help, it's certainly not alleviated by the amount of baserunners that get on because of bad defense.

 

That was my concern going into the season. There are a lot of words that I can use to describe for the plan Bloom had for "up the middle" this season and none of them are good.

 

What I would have done is just left Kiké in CF, played Arroyo at 2B and found a glove first SS that hits 9th. When Story comes back, you upgrade Arroyo with Story and have a pretty strong defensive alignment IMO.

 

What Bloom did was rely on Kiké to be a fulltime SS when he's never been one. Expected Arroyo to be a fulltime 2B when he's never been healthy enough to give you those innings. Hoped Duvall would bring COF GG defense to CF and play average defense there. Traded for an injured Mondesi to backup 2B/SS if Kiké/Arroyo didn't work out. The only plan that kind of worked out was Duvall. He got injured, but could have been injured on a similar play if he was in RF or LF.

[moonslav59]

We’d be in a wild card slot if Houck and Whitlock had ERAs like last year or 2021.

 

Even Pivetta at2021-2022 numbers would probably mean another win.

 

Kluber has been a major reason our rotation has sucked but he is not alone.

 

Ultimately, the blame gets placed on the GM. It’s the way it’s always been, but it’s hard for a GM to expect 5 major declines, all at once.

 

On the flip side, we got more from Sale, Wink, Craw and Pax, so far, than most of us expected.

[mvp 78]

No one is questioning his performance this year.

 

But the Eovaldi that the Sox had to choose to extend was coming off a year of 109 IP and a lofty Fenway ERA. Somehow they apparently (per MLBTR) did offer him a multiyear deal anyway, but probably for less than Texas did. Apparently his deal with Texas can reach 3yrs $63mil with incentives and Eovaldi chose to bet on himself. But I doubt he sees them since he would need to reach 300 IP in the next two years and he hasn’t accomplished reached that total over a 2 year stretch like since 2015.

 

I’ve been saying it since his first contract with Boston - the issues with Eovaldi have nothing to do with his talent. And on a staff that already has Sale and Paxton - two other deals in wasn’t wild about - adding another high injury risk pitcher is just asking for trouble…

 

As I've said before, the Red Sox offered a LARGER contract than what the Rangers gave him. Eovaldi went back to the Sox after receiving the TEX offer and requested the original Sox offer and Bloom said no. They had already spent the money elsewhere.

[Old Red]

We’d be in a wild card slot if Houck and Whitlock had ERAs like last year or 2021.

 

Even Pivetta at2021-2022 numbers would probably mean another win.

 

Kluber has been a major reason our rotation has sucked but he is not alone.

 

Ultimately, the blame gets placed on the GM. It’s the way it’s always been, but it’s hard for a GM to expect 5 major declines, all at once.

 

On the flip side, we got more from Sale, Wink, Craw and Pax, so far, than most of us expected.

 

You said the same thing last year about the declines of players, and the GM. I guess Bloom just has bad luck. Poor guy. Houck, and Whitlock also belong in the BP where Whitlock definitely pitches better.

[Dipre]

As I've said before, the Red Sox offered a LARGER contract than what the Rangers gave him. Eovaldi went back to the Sox after receiving the TEX offer and requested the original Sox offer and Bloom said no. They had already spent the money elsewhere.

 

It won't be accepted if it doesn't fit the narratives of people whining about it. And even then, Eovaldi choosing Texas isn't the problem, the problem was signing Kluber.

[Old Red]

That was my concern going into the season. There are a lot of words that I can use to describe for the plan Bloom had for "up the middle" this season and none of them are good.

 

What I would have done is just left Kiké in CF, played Arroyo at 2B and found a glove first SS that hits 9th. When Story comes back, you upgrade Arroyo with Story and have a pretty strong defensive alignment IMO.

 

What Bloom did was rely on Kiké to be a fulltime SS when he's never been one. Expected Arroyo to be a fulltime 2B when he's never been healthy enough to give you those innings. Hoped Duvall would bring COF GG defense to CF and play average defense there. Traded for an injured Mondesi to backup 2B/SS if Kiké/Arroyo didn't work out. The only plan that kind of worked out was Duvall. He got injured, but could have been injured on a similar play if he was in RF or LF.

I wouldn’t have resigned Kike in the first place, and I’ve said all along the $10M could have been put to better use. I agree that a glove first SS should have been a priority after Story came up lame.

[Old Red]

It won't be accepted if it doesn't fit the narratives of people whining about it. And even then, Eovaldi choosing Texas isn't the problem, the problem was signing Kluber.

 

Bingo on signing Kluber.