Time For the Hypo Trade Talks to Begin ?

[cp176]

Bloom’s roster construction has been atrocious this season. They played over their heads for a short stretch, but they have crashed down to earth in a fireball. They are helpless against every team in their division.

 

Pretty much how I see it.

[moonslav59]

Pretty much how I see it.

 

Consider context.

Edited July 26, 2022 by moonslav59

[Kimmi]

That isn't going to happen. Henry has said that he wants to get his finances in order. He hired Bloom to get that done. Bloom has experience with low budget teams (one, actually). Bogey is gone. I hope they find the money to sign Devers but from what I hear they are very far apart. My guess is that both will be gone soon.

 

Bloom was hired to build teams in which the long term is balanced with the short term. Dombrowski kind of blew out the long term outlook of this team. Building it back takes time, roughly 5 years. In the meantime, Bloom should be doing exactly what he's been doing. He hasn't been perfect, but IMO, his strategy is spot on. Right now, things are going terribly wrong, but last year's team was very competitive, as is this year's team when healthy.

 

IMO, once the long term sustainability goal is reached, we will see more of the "big market" type moves that most people want to see, though I'm not sure if Bloom will ever sign a player to a 10+ year contract.

[Kimmi]

Right. He wants to win. He wants to keep the revenue streams from the gate, tv, gear etc, i.e., he wants to keep all his fans and fan interest. He wants to make millions of dollars. But he wants to do this without paying his employees fair market value for their services. I guess all you guys supporting this are business owners or CEOs, because I find it incomprehensible that workers or customers would support this.

 

I'm all for giving hefty raises to the everyday commoners who work for the team. Giving hefty raises to the entitled players who are already make more in one game than most people make in a year, not so much.

[Kimmi]

They both will end up getting more than either of us would suggest, but I'm just saying, I'll likely like Soto's deal more, due mostly to age and projected future vlaue.

 

I am confident in saying that I won't like either deal.

[Kimmi]

 

No one hated Sale in 2018. But extending him while he was injured has proven disastrous…

 

Interestingly enough, I think I was more on board with his extension than I was with the original trade.

[Kimmi]

I prefer to think, they played to their capabilities until injuries wrecked their season!

 

I like this.

 

Though their season isn't over yet.

[notin]

Keep in mind one limiting factor in Bloom's way IF he determines to be a serious seller .

 

Buyer's, who will pay well, tend to be those who expect or on the cusp of earning a post season slot. Each league will have 6 of those initial "winners"

 

In the AL, 4 of those teams are in the AL East together with the Red Sox. NYY, TBR, TBJs, and ok, even the Orioles based on recent play ( 1:1000 chance still) . That leaves only a few possible AL buyers, such as Cleveland, White Sox, Twins, Mariners , none of which are known for extravagant spending on the Bogaerts/JDM types. Do the Astros need anything ? JDM could try to crack that lineup.

 

Bloom will have to focus on the NL , one to avoid getting beat by his own guys later, and because that' s where some money and needs are. The Mets, IMO, via Owner Steve Cohen , will go all-in to win it all this year. Try to pick his pocket, Chaim. Cohen's guys have to beat the Braves and keep the Phillies out of the picture.

 

Dodgers are always an open checkbook and Friedman would not shortchange his former protege, would he ? The Padres are scrambling but don't need a SS. Braves and Cardinals could use some help, maybe, JDM if he can get his back right. Are the Giants in business still after being 4 swept by LAD. Do the Brewers have any excess talent or money?

 

The point is again that Bloom needs to shop in the NL, not AL to move veteran names with notable bucks still remaining this year. BUT the biggest point is how can Bloom be a seller of veterans if he expects to get a WC berth . He needs to buy( 1B/SP) The next 7 games will determine where the Sox fall.

 

Fair Disclosure: The Sox may scramble for a WC slot, and good for them , but I do not see any hope of this current bunch, even with returning IL guys, actually reaching the ALCS much less the WS.

 

Why do you eliminate AL East teams?

 

If you’re giving up and selling off the season, the most sensible move is to trade WITH division rivals. You can create a situation where you improve your future while simultaneously weakening theirs…

[JDavis76]

Bloom was hired to build teams in which the long term is balanced with the short term. Dombrowski kind of blew out the long term outlook of this team. Building it back takes time, roughly 5 years. In the meantime, Bloom should be doing exactly what he's been doing. He hasn't been perfect, but IMO, his strategy is spot on. Right now, things are going terribly wrong, but last year's team was very competitive, as is this year's team when healthy.

 

IMO, once the long term sustainability goal is reached, we will see more of the "big market" type moves that most people want to see, though I'm not sure if Bloom will ever sign a player to a 10+ year contract.

 

Wouldn't trading off the expiring contracts go a long way to accomplishing this goal?

[notin]

 

Interestingly enough, I think I was more on board with his extension than I was with the original trade.

 

I’m the opposite.

 

The Sox gave up a lot for Sale, but those first couple seasons, he was absolutely worth it. But signing him to a limiting AAV while he was injured was foolish. Especially since he hasn’t done anything since, which was alway a possibility. And if Sale misses the rest of 2022, that deal will have cost $72mill for 48 IP. It would be $90mill for 48 IP, but I pro-rated 2020.

 

But hey, only 2 years $55mill left (at a $29mill AAV for tax purposes).

 

This deal is rapidly approaching being Panda Bad…

[a700hitter]

 

I’m the opposite.

 

The Sox gave up a lot for Sale, but those first couple seasons, he was absolutely worth it. But signing him to a limiting AAV while he was injured was foolish. Especially since he hasn’t done anything since, which was alway a possibility. And if Sale misses the rest of 2022, that deal will have cost $72mill for 48 IP. It would be $90mill for 48 IP, but I pro-rated 2020.

 

But hey, only 2 years $55mill left (at a $29mill AAV for tax purposes).

 

This deal is rapidly approaching being Panda Bad…

I am with you. I loved the trade, but not the extension after he was already having arm issues.

[JDavis76]

 

I’m the opposite.

 

The Sox gave up a lot for Sale, but those first couple seasons, he was absolutely worth it. But signing him to a limiting AAV while he was injured was foolish. Especially since he hasn’t done anything since, which was alway a possibility. And if Sale misses the rest of 2022, that deal will have cost $72mill for 48 IP. It would be $90mill for 48 IP, but I pro-rated 2020.

 

But hey, only 2 years $55mill left (at a $29mill AAV for tax purposes).

 

This deal is rapidly approaching being Panda Bad…

 

I was going to say pavano-esque......

[JDavis76]

From mlb.com

 

Alyson Footer, editor/moderator: Let’s start with the Red Sox. Are they sellers? They seem to be quickly fading, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they have to just get rid of anyone hitting free agency soon. Also, as I look at the list of pending free agents, I can’t help but think of how many of them have contributed to the team being outscored 55-8 in the past three games. They aren't really the "blow-it-up" type of organization. What should/will they do?

 

Jon Paul Morosi, reporter, MLB.com/MLB Network: The Red Sox absolutely should be listening on Xander Bogaerts, but not Rafael Devers. That's a conversation for this coming offseason and next year.

 

Mark Feinsand, executive reporter: Boston is one of those eight bubble teams I wrote about this week, and frankly, I don’t think we’ll know their course until a day or two before the Deadline. I think J.D. Martinez could be dealt, because he’s not in their future plans, but Bogaerts could either bring back a nice prospect or two, or he could be given a qualifying offer after he opts out.

 

Devers is most definitely an offseason topic. If Bogaerts leaves, I would expect the Red Sox to extend Devers.

 

Morosi: If you move Bogaerts, you acknowledge that you're not a likely World Series contender this year -- which is the reality. They aren't.

 

Feinsand: If chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom decides to go into full sell mode, then Martinez, Bogaerts and Nathan Eovaldi should all be on the move.

 

Morosi: In many ways, Red Sox fans are the perfect group to understand the virtue in an "express sale" -- as long as it's done correctly. They've seen how quickly fortunes can change -- witness the 2013 World Series title following the 2012 calamity.

 

They also know what a World Series champion looks like -- and they realize that the 2022 Red Sox do not match that description, at least based on their current form.

 

Feinsand: Chris Sale’s latest injury was the sign that 2022 just isn’t going to be their year.

 

After this recent 1-9 stretch, I think Red Sox fans would be at peace with a bit of a reset. But they have to do what it takes to extend Devers. If they lose both Bogaerts and Devers -- without adding another huge bat in the process -- that won’t go over well in Boston.

 

Morosi: Let's put it this way: If you ask Red Sox fans if they'd rather (a) miss the playoffs but extend Devers by Opening Day or ( win one playoff round, lose in the Division Series, and not extend Devers, I believe they'd overwhelmingly choose option (a).

 

I've long believed that, at this time of year, front offices welcome a sense of clarity. What has transpired with the Red Sox has given them clarity, though not in the way they hoped.

 

Feinsand: By now, I would think that the Red Sox know what it will take to bring Bogaerts back. If they don’t think they’re going to be willing to do that -- and my guess is that they won’t -- then they have to trade him.

[Kimmi]

 

I’m the opposite.

 

The Sox gave up a lot for Sale, but those first couple seasons, he was absolutely worth it. But signing him to a limiting AAV while he was injured was foolish. Especially since he hasn’t done anything since, which was alway a possibility. And if Sale misses the rest of 2022, that deal will have cost $72mill for 48 IP. It would be $90mill for 48 IP, but I pro-rated 2020.

 

But hey, only 2 years $55mill left (at a $29mill AAV for tax purposes).

 

This deal is rapidly approaching being Panda Bad…

 

In hindsight, the Sale extension looks bad. There are still 2 years for him to make good on it though.

[moonslav59]

I figured a healthy Sale was worth maybe close to $145M/4 on the open market, and they gave him $145M/5, figuring he'd likely miss a season.

 

I thought the signing was risky, especially with the injury, but he had comeback in September of 2018 and K'd 18 in 12 IP (1BB & 11 Hits)

 

There was some hope, he'd not miss a year, too.

 

As it turned out, it was a miserable choice to make, and Bloom has paid the price more than DD.

[moonslav59]

In hindsight, the Sale extension looks bad. There are still 2 years for him to make good on it though.

 

It only took one playoff season for some people to forget Price's deal.

[mvp 78]

It only took one playoff season for some people to forget Price's deal.

 

David Price's deal was worth it. With him in the fold, they won 3 straight AL East titles and a WS. They are now eating some money on the back end, but I think it was worth it. Would have still rather signed Lester though. His deal was less egregious than Sale's actually.

[Kimmi]

It only took one playoff season for some people to forget Price's deal.

 

It doesn't take much for people to turn on players or to figuratively enshrine them into the HOF.

 

It's really a shame because there was a lot of optimism surrounding Sale's stuff when he returned recently. This injury cannot be blamed on Sale being frail.

[notin]

David Price's deal was worth it. With him in the fold, they won 3 straight AL East titles and a WS. They are now eating some money on the back end, but I think it was worth it. Would have still rather signed Lester though. His deal was less egregious than Sale's actually.

 

Three straight titles justifies Price? He was basically along for the ride on the last two.

 

His first year in Boston, he was worth 4.4 fWAR. His last three totaled 6.2 fWAR.

 

He did come up big in the postseason in 2018, finally putting his shaky October career behind him…

[moonslav59]

While Price did not suck for us, and a 118 ERA+ is good, that's not what we paid him to give us.

 

Only 588 IP in 4 seasons was the kicker. Sure, that's more than Sale has given us, but I wasn't comparing those numbers.

 

If Sale is part of a ring team in 2023 or 2024, will he be absolved, like Price was?

 

I have no doubt, that if we did not win a ring in 2018, most would have viewed Price's deal as an overall failure.

 

(I'm not even bringing up the fact that we paid him $32M not to pitch for us, at a time where money was extremely tight.)

[mvp 78]

Three straight titles justifies Price? He was basically along for the ride on the last two.

 

His first year in Boston, he was worth 4.4 fWAR. His last three totaled 6.2 fWAR.

 

He did come up big in the postseason in 2018, finally putting his shaky October career behind him…

 

So not just along for the ride then?

 

As always, flags fly forever. The reason the Sale extension doesn't work out as no flags have come after it. Don't pay for past performance.

[mvp 78]

While Price did not suck for us, and a 118 ERA+ is good, that's not what we paid him to give us.

 

Only 588 IP in 4 seasons was the kicker. Sure, that's more than Sale has given us, but I wasn't comparing those numbers.

 

If Sale is part of a ring team in 2023 or 2024, will he be absolved, like Price was?

 

I have no doubt, that if we did not win a ring in 2018, most would have viewed Price's deal as an overall failure.

 

(I'm not even bringing up the fact that we paid him $32M not to pitch for us, at a time where money was extremely tight.)

 

How much are we paying Sale for him not to pitch for us? JBJ to not be a positive fWAR player?

[moonslav59]

How much are we paying Sale for him not to pitch for us? JBJ to not be a positive fWAR player?

 

I can keep telling you, but it doesn't seem to matter.

 

The Sale extension sucked.

The JBJ trade made my scalp bleed from the scratching.

The Price signing sucked, but for the ring. I'm not saying an equal suck with Sale's contract.

Sale has 2 years to contribute to a ring, and he's even with Price- in my book. Maybe not yours, but why are you asking me pointless questions?

[mvp 78]

I can keep telling you, but it doesn't seem to matter.

 

The Sale extension sucked.

The JBJ trade made my scalp bleed from the scratching.

The Price signing sucked, but for the ring. I'm not saying an equal suck with Sale's contract.

Sale has 2 years to contribute to a ring, and he's even with Price- in my book. Maybe not yours, but why are you asking me pointless questions?

 

Thank you.

[moonslav59]

Thank you.

 

You're not welcome.

 

[Bellhorn04]

While Price did not suck for us, and a 118 ERA+ is good, that's not what we paid him to give us.

 

Only 588 IP in 4 seasons was the kicker. Sure, that's more than Sale has given us, but I wasn't comparing those numbers.

 

If Sale is part of a ring team in 2023 or 2024, will he be absolved, like Price was?

 

An even better comp for Sale's current contract might be Lackey.

[JDavis76]

An even better comp for Sale's current contract might be Lackey.

 

carl pavano

[notin]

So not just along for the ride then?

 

As always, flags fly forever. The reason the Sale extension doesn't work out as no flags have come after it. Don't pay for past performance.

 

 

The postseason has nothing to do with the division titles you cited. Apparently the original goal post location was not to your liking?

[mvp 78]

The postseason has nothing to do with the division titles you cited. Apparently the original goal post location was not to your liking?

 

I mentioned Division titles AND the WS. Maybe you just aren't that good at reading?

[Swiharts Ghost]

Sean Murphy ? Chaim mentions maybe dealing to strengthen a strength about 8 weeks ago .Murphy is a stud catcher with a cannon for an arm and Pop in his bat .Maybe Chaim can improve the team this year and for next few at Catcher .Vaz can be dealt while he has value to a contending team .