Fire Bloom .

[Old Red]

Had Bloom hit on one of his $10M/1 SPer deals, maybe this would not be a major debate issue.

 

It hard for

Me to bash Bloom for not signing any loner term pitching deals because nobody seemed even close to deserving of the deals they ended up getting.

 

I’ve advocated for trading for a younger, more cost controlled SP’er, but farm building has been a higher priority than winning now since DDs last year in BOS. (Many think the going cheap started with Bloom, but it actually started when we let Kimbrell and Kelly go and did not replace them or trade any more prospects after 2028.)

 

Since I love the idea of building the farm and depth up first, I’m torn between keeping the kids or biting the bullet and making a big splash trade like the Sale, Beckett, Schill or Pedro trades.

Farm building is fine, but that can only get you so far, and just, because the farm is higher ranked today than when Bloom took over doesn’t mean it is good enough to lead to success.

[dgalehouse]

Nathan Eovaldi is from Texas. Nolan Ryan is his role model. So, it is very possible that he preferred playing there. Wacha has an injury history and apparently some of his metrics did not match up with his won - loss record and ERA. J.D. did seem to be declining. The Mookie and Bogaerts situations have been beaten to death. And so on and so forth. You can try to justify and spin every single move. Here is the problem: The Red Sox have spent far too much time in the cellar since Bloom took over the reins. This is not acceptable to many of us . We want it to change.

[Old Red]

Nathan Eovaldi is from Texas. Nolan Ryan is his role model. So, it is very possible that he preferred playing there. Wacha has an injury history and apparently some of his metrics did not match up with his won - loss record and ERA. J.D. did seem to be declining. The Mookie and Bogaerts situations have been beaten to death. And so on and so forth. You can try to justify and spin every single move. Here is the problem: The Red Sox have spent far too much time in the cellar since Bloom took over the reins. This is not acceptable to many of us . We want it to change.

 

Agree, but some will say, but Bloom has built the farm system up, which is higher ranked now, but it’s just not time to go all in yet, but maybe in 2024, or 2025. Like I keep saying Anything short of a postseason appearance is a failure, and a last place finish is even worse.

[Randy Red Sox]

I think our farm system is over-rated. Yes it is better than it was but name me ONE top pitching prospect anywhere near MLB ready Bloom has brought in.

Farm building is fine, but that can only get you so far, and just, because the farm is higher ranked today than when Bloom took over doesn’t mean it is good enough to lead to success.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Had Bloom hit on one of his $10M/1 SPer deals, maybe this would not be a major debate issue.

 

 

Strahm was obviously too costly for $15M... over 2 years. So what if he's been better than any lefty reliever in Boston's bullpen this year, and better than Kluber in the Phils' starting rotation. Either way, breaking down his $7.5 AAV doesn't look so bad considering what Bloom blew on Klubes.

 

Strahm deserved to be re-signed just for the fact that he's a baseball card collecting hero on social media.

[notin]

Sorry, gotta disagree again. The first baseball team that really captured my attention was the 1965 Dodgers, and it was because of Koufax and Drysdale.

 

In 1966 the Birds won the Series with some incredible pitching by Palmer, McNally et al.

 

1967, Bob Gibson almost single-handedly won the Series against the Sox.

 

1968 was the Year of the Pitcher. And Mickey Lolich was the Series hero.

 

1969, the Mets, Seaver and Koosman.

 

The great Sox teams of the late 70's had Tiant, Eckersley...

 

I could go on and on.

 

My point w wasn’t that pitching doesn’t win. It’s that a lot of teams pursued other formulae. The fact that 1968 was “the year of the pitcher” shows how ubiquitous it was. Flash forward to the 1970’s and what was the calling card of the Big Red Machine? Or in the 1980’s with the Brewers aka Harvey’s Wallbangers. Or the Cardinals of the early 1980’s. They had pitching, but best teams were built around more. Heck, most of those 1980’s teams early in the decade focused on speed and stolen bases. That was the fad - the launch/angle and escape velocity of the day.

 

You didn’t see this mad league-wide rush for starting pitching and 200 IP starters until the late 1970’s, when the success of Earl Weaver finally went mainstream.

 

Some of this is due to expansion. With 6 more teams in the league, finding superior pitching is getting tougher. A lot of it is driven by economics (personal theory, but not unsupported).

 

KC won a title with a mediocre staff of no names. Tampa has made the postseason four (and counting) straight years while getting fewer IP from their starters than the overwhelming majority of the league. Like it or not, the Opener is a brilliant strategy when deployed properly.

 

It’s very possible starting pitching just isn’t as desirable as it used to be. It can never go away completely, but it can be reduced and deployed different. This might be a fad, but every future was once a fad. And if it is the future of the game, most of those who stay in the past will remove themselves from competition soon enough…

[Old Red]

I think our farm system is over-rated. Yes it is better than it was but name me ONE top pitching prospect anywhere near MLB ready Bloom has brought in.

 

Take Mayer out of the rankings, and it wouldn’t be as high either.

[notin]

Take Mayer out of the rankings, and it wouldn’t be as high either.

 

Take out the top prospect of 29 other teams and the farm gets worse, too…

[Jasonbay44]

Take Mayer out of the rankings, and it wouldn’t be as high either.

And it wasn’t like Mayer was some amazing pick. He fell into his lap. It would be like praising whichever NBA team drafts Wemby #1 this year.

[Old Red]

And it wasn’t like Mayer was some amazing pick. He fell into his lap. It would be like praising whichever NBA team drafts Wemby #1 this year.

 

Bloom gets no credit for Mayer if he works out, or not. 3 teams passed on him first, and Bloom just took the BPA.

[Old Red]

Take out the top prospect of 29 other teams and the farm gets worse, too…

 

We’re not talking about the 29 others.

[notin]

Strahm was obviously too costly for $15M... over 2 years. So what if he's been better than any lefty reliever in Boston's bullpen this year, and better than Kluber in the Phils' starting rotation. Either way, breaking down his $7.5 AAV doesn't look so bad considering what Bloom blew on Klubes.

 

Strahm deserved to be re-signed just for the fact that he's a baseball card collecting hero on social media.

 

That’s a good argument. I also would have accepted “he’s a baseball junkie.”

 

But the bottom line is - the 2022 Red Sox were 78-84. If the Sox brought back Wacha, Eovaldi, Strahm and Martinez, how is that an improvement? By hoping they all play better this year? Who is it on this board who (correctly) says “hope is not a strategy”?

 

And if Bloom brings the band back together and the Sox go 78-84 again, how many will call it the right move anyway? Especially since not one of them took a one year deal, so 2024 might look a lot like 2022 as well…

[notin]

We’re not talking about the 29 others.

 

But you are applying universal logic and stating it as if it only applied to the Red Sox…

[notin]

And it wasn’t like Mayer was some amazing pick. He fell into his lap. It would be like praising whichever NBA team drafts Wemby #1 this year.

 

What about Nick Yorke and his .884 OPS in AA?

[Old Red]

But you are applying universal logic and stating it as if it only applied to the Red Sox…

 

I’m only interested it what the Red Sox have done, or is doing. If you want to worry about what the other teams do go for it.

[notin]

I’m only interested it what the Red Sox have done, or is doing. If you want to worry about what the other teams do go for it.

 

Not even remotely the point…

[vjcsmoke]

The crazy thing about Wacha is he only got 4/26 from the Padres. That's an average of 6.5m per season.

 

Wacha was one of the Red Sox best pitchers last year with an 11-2 record, 3.32 era, and 1.11 WHIP.

 

This year Wacha is pretty much maintaining his numbers with a 3.48 era, and 1.14 WHIP.

 

You can't seriously tell me that Wacha for 4/26 is a WORSE deal than Kluber for 1/10.

 

A lot of head scratching moves by the Red Sox under Bloom who don't seem to understand that RE-SIGNING your own free agents is a valid option!

[Bellhorn04]

My point w wasn’t that pitching doesn’t win. It’s that a lot of teams pursued other formulae. The fact that 1968 was “the year of the pitcher” shows how ubiquitous it was. Flash forward to the 1970’s and what was the calling card of the Big Red Machine? Or in the 1980’s with the Brewers aka Harvey’s Wallbangers. Or the Cardinals of the early 1980’s. They had pitching, but best teams were built around more. Heck, most of those 1980’s teams early in the decade focused on speed and stolen bases. That was the fad - the launch/angle and escape velocity of the day.

 

You didn’t see this mad league-wide rush for starting pitching and 200 IP starters until the late 1970’s, when the success of Earl Weaver finally went mainstream.

 

Some of this is due to expansion. With 6 more teams in the league, finding superior pitching is getting tougher. A lot of it is driven by economics (personal theory, but not unsupported).

 

KC won a title with a mediocre staff of no names. Tampa has made the postseason four (and counting) straight years while getting fewer IP from their starters than the overwhelming majority of the league. Like it or not, the Opener is a brilliant strategy when deployed properly.

 

It’s very possible starting pitching just isn’t as desirable as it used to be. It can never go away completely, but it can be reduced and deployed different. This might be a fad, but every future was once a fad. And if it is the future of the game, most of those who stay in the past will remove themselves from competition soon enough…

 

Does all this mean the Red Sox 2023 rotation isn't a problem?

[guinness22]

The Wacha thing was puzzling me too. There was something the front office didn’t like I guess but 4/26 doesn’t seem like a lot of downside. If he over performs he holds out? Dunno. If he under performs he’s only 4/26. Versus Paxton and Kluber and Sale’s extension (or Eovaldi’s FA contract if you prefer) it seems like a bargain. (And yes I’m cherry picking but I am also not indicting the entire FO staff for every move they’ve made just expressing my confusion over this one). Maybe Wacha didn’t want to come back to Boston so it was all moot??

[Bellhorn04]

Houck should be in the bullpen, and he would be, if Bloom didn't forget to upgrade the rotation.

[Hugh2]

Offering Wacha a QO doesn’t seem like such a bad idea now

[dannycater]

Come on, Bloom has made one bad decision or call after another. He has continually not only made the wrong move, he has no concept of how important certain guys are to the clubhouse and to the morale of the team. He gutted the morale guys from roster. All of them--the last Eavoldi of that bunch. He behaves like a guy who doesn't understand intangibles to winning baseball.

[notin]

Offering Wacha a QO doesn’t seem like such a bad idea now

 

I don’t think that’s legal anymore…

[notin]

Come on, Bloom has made one bad decision or call after another. He has continually not only made the wrong move, he has no concept of how important certain guys are to the clubhouse and to the morale of the team. He gutted the morale guys from roster. All of them--the last Eavoldi of that bunch.

 

And you know this how?

 

He brought back Hernandez. Are you saying Hernandez was unimportant?

 

And Eovaldi departed via free agency, meaning he had some say in it. He received a QO; he declined it. For a lower AAV and an additional year in Texas. He wanted more years, but one thing he has absolutely shown throughout his career is he’s a very high injury risk. In his three actual full season in Boston, he only pitched a full season one time…

[Old Red]

Houck should be in the bullpen, and he would be, if Bloom didn't forget to upgrade the rotation.

 

I agree, and I’ve always said Whitlock too, but with Sale out now Wink, and the Kut Man would have to go back into the rotation, which at this point might not be such a bad thing.

[Old Red]

And you know this how?

 

He brought back Hernandez. Are you saying Hernandez was unimportant?

 

And Eovaldi departed via free agency, meaning he had some say in it. He received a QO; he declined it. For a lower AAV and an additional year in Texas. He wanted more years, but one thing he has absolutely shown throughout his career is he’s a very high injury risk. In his three actual full season in Boston, he only pitched a full season one time…

Yes Kike is unimportant. He has lived off his 2021 hot streak in the postseason by some on here for two years now. Evol took the bigger sum of money, which was not surprising at all. Update from today for Evol. 6 IP-1H-0 Runs. Kluber pitched in MOP UP.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Old Red

[notin]

Yes Kike is unimportant. He has lived off his 2021 hot streak in the postseason by some on here for two years now. Evol took the bigger sum of money, which was not surprising at all.

 

Kike isn’t playing well, but the criticism was about clubhouse chemistry and how everyone who left was important to it and everyone who stayed wasn’t.

 

It’s fair to ask how we know who was and wasn’t important to clubhouse chemistry. Also how important said chemistry was on a 78-84 team…

[Bellhorn04]

And another brilliant start for Eovaldi.

[Old Red]

And another brilliant start for Eovaldi.

 

And Kluber coming in with a broom to mop up.

[notin]

Does all this mean the Red Sox 2023 rotation isn't a problem?

 

It means don’t expect lots of money thrown at it. Expect changes in usage…

Edited June 4, 2023 by notin