Fire Bloom .

[mvp 78]

You don’t know what Vaz would have done if he would have stayed in Boston now do you? Vaz got a lot of big clutch hits in his career in Boston. We know Vaz wasn’t good enough for you, but at any rate to me not doing the fire sale at the deadline was the right thing to do at the time. It looks worse now, but nobody knew Raffy would go into a power outage also.

 

Well, you ended up being wrong.

[Old Red]

Well, you ended up being wrong.

 

It’s not the first time, and I’m sure it won’t be the last.

[Old Red]

The Vaz trade was really weird. Overnight, he became a "team leader" who needed to be given a long term deal. How did he go from a defensively overrated guy who throws the ball around too much, but has a few big hits on his resumé to a modern day Sox Rushmore player? Baffling.

 

When was the last time you were in the Red Sox clubhouse? There you would have gotten your answer, and not on here.

[Bellhorn04]

When was the last time you were in the Red Sox clubhouse? There you would have gotten your answer, and not on here.

 

I get that, but the fact is the team was 8-19 in July, so Vaz's leadership didn't seem to be paying off in wins at that point...

[Old Red]

I get that, but the fact is the team was 8-19 in July, so Vaz's leadership didn't seem to be paying off in wins at that point...

 

Neither did Bloom’s, or Cora’s.

[mvp 78]

When was the last time you were in the Red Sox clubhouse? There you would have gotten your answer, and not on here.

 

And if they traded Kevin Plawecki, there would have been similar complaints from players at the time. None of us on here have inside knowledge about what goes on in the clubhouse. Saying "were you in the clubhouse" only serves to stifle conversation.

 

What I was posting about was the reaction from posters on TalkSox. On here, nobody gave two shits about Christian Vazquez until he was traded. It seemed to be just another reason to bitch about the guy in charge.

[moonslav59]

You don’t know what Vaz would have done if he would have stayed in Boston now do you? Vaz got a lot of big clutch hits in his career in Boston. We know Vaz wasn’t good enough for you, but at any rate to me not doing the fire sale at the deadline was the right thing to do at the time. It looks worse now, but nobody knew Raffy would go into a power outage also.

 

Nobody knows but Bloom & brass and maybe Vaz.

 

When we are forced to reset the tax, I'll remind people about 2023.

[moonslav59]

I get that, but the fact is the team was 8-19 in July, so Vaz's leadership didn't seem to be paying off in wins at that point...

 

Not to put down anyone's leadership skills, but the fact is, people who are complaining about the team's lack of focus and will to win, should not be praising the team leaders in the same breath.

 

Just my opinion. people can say whatever they want.

[Old Red]

And if they traded Kevin Plawecki, there would have been similar complaints from players at the time. None of us on here have inside knowledge about what goes on in the clubhouse. Saying "were you in the clubhouse" only serves to stifle conversation.

 

What I was posting about was the reaction from posters on TalkSox. On here, nobody gave two shits about Christian Vazquez until he was traded. It seemed to be just another reason to bitch about the guy in charge.

Of course there is no reason to bitch about the guy in charge after this overachieving year? Everything but I suppose. What goes on in the clubhouse is the important piece, and not what goes on in this forum, so that was not to stifle anything, but to make the point that what the players think is more important than what we think.

[Old Red]

Nobody knows but Bloom & brass and maybe Vaz.

 

When we are forced to reset the tax, I'll remind people about 2023.

 

And I’ll remind you that most fans don’t care about the tax like you do.I don’t care if the Red Sox had a $500M payroll. Let’s go all in with, Bogey, Raffy, and let’s land The Judge too.

[Old Red]

Not to put down anyone's leadership skills, but the fact is, people who are complaining about the team's lack of focus and will to win, should not be praising the team leaders in the same breath.

 

Just my opinion. people can say whatever they want.

Bloom, and Cora are the team leaders.

[moonslav59]

Bloom, and Cora are the team leaders.

 

Then, what's this talk about clubhouse leaders mattering?

[notin]

The Vaz trade was really weird. Overnight, he became a "team leader" who needed to be given a long term deal. How did he go from a defensively overrated guy who throws the ball around too much, but has a few big hits on his resumé to a modern day Sox Rushmore player? Baffling.

 

The same way Renfroe went from being a guy Tampa released rather than pay $3mill, to a player somehow drawing favorable comparisons to Dwight Evans?

[moonslav59]

And I’ll remind you that most fans don’t care about the tax like you do.I don’t care if the Red Sox had a $500M payroll. Let’s go all in with, Bogey, Raffy, and let’s land The Judge too.

 

You don't have to remind me. I agree with your position. Most fans don't care.

 

They will care only when JH cuts salary to re-set and not wonder why it had to happen. I get it.

 

I'd love JH to spend more, too. It's not like I'm here wishing we don't sign good players.

[Old Red]

Then, what's this talk about clubhouse leaders mattering?

 

It’s all part of the equation. Like I said earlier go, and ask any player in any team sports if clubhouse chemistry matters, and I think most would say yes.

[notin]

And I’ll remind you that most fans don’t care about the tax like you do.I don’t care if the Red Sox had a $500M payroll. Let’s go all in with, Bogey, Raffy, and let’s land The Judge too.

 

It’s not about whether or not fans care. It’s a reality that Henry cares and we know this from his frequent resets. You don’t get any more correct by telling those who acknowledge this obvious fact that you prefer to ignore it…

[notin]

It’s all part of the equation. Like I said earlier go, and ask any player in any team sports if clubhouse chemistry matters, and I think most would say yes.

 

But does chemistry create winning or winning create chemistry?

[Bellhorn04]

But does chemistry create winning or winning create chemistry?

 

You don't hear too many losing teams say "But damn, our chemistry was great!"

[Old Red]

But does chemistry create winning or winning create chemistry?

 

Not necessarily none of the above.

[Old Red]

It’s not about whether or not fans care. It’s a reality that Henry cares and we know this from his frequent resets. You don’t get any more correct by telling those who acknowledge this obvious fact that you prefer to ignore it…

 

Ahh judging the old John Henry to think he will follow past ways.

[mvp 78]

The same way Renfroe went from being a guy Tampa released rather than pay $3mill, to a player somehow drawing favorable comparisons to Dwight Evans?

 

As if...

 

Hunter Renfroe Age 30 8.7 fWAR

Dwight Evans Age 30 36.8 fWAR

[Bellhorn04]

Ahh judging the old John Henry to think he will follow past ways.

 

Henry has been very consistent. He's always spent on the team, and he's always shown he won't let the spending get out of control.

[Old Red]

Henry has been very consistent. He's always spent on the team, and he's always shown he won't let the spending get out of control.

 

This coming year will be the big tell on the spending starting with Bogey, and Raffy.

[moonslav59]

It’s all part of the equation. Like I said earlier go, and ask any player in any team sports if clubhouse chemistry matters, and I think most would say yes.

 

Again, I am not disagreeing. I know clubhouse chemistry matters. My position is not exclusive of this.

 

My point is that maybe the clubhouse leaders weren't all that great, this year, and changing them might help in the long run, even if it causes some immediate grumblings among the team.

 

Maybe it's worse after a change is made. I'm just saying nothing was working, this year.

[moonslav59]

As if...

 

Hunter Renfroe Age 30 8.7 fWAR

Dwight Evans Age 30 36.8 fWAR

 

Then, Dwight got better!

[moonslav59]

Henry has been very consistent. He's always spent on the team, and he's always shown he won't let the spending get out of control.

 

He often resets, and several times goes 2-3 years not going over the mark.

 

We can all hope or complain about spending more, but until he does, I'm assuming he continues as he has been doing for 2 decades.

[cp176]

Henry has been very consistent. He's always spent on the team, and he's always shown he won't let the spending get out of control.

 

It will be very interesting to see what Henry decides to do this off-season. I think that he hears much of the talk and that it does affect him. If attendance goes down, he will make some changes I think. They could be big ones.

[Old Red]

Again, I am not disagreeing. I know clubhouse chemistry matters. My position is not exclusive of this.

 

My point is that maybe the clubhouse leaders weren't all that great, this year, and changing them might help in the long run, even if it causes some immediate grumblings among the team.

 

Maybe it's worse after a change is made. I'm just saying nothing was working, this year.

You can be a good clubhouse leader, but that doesn’t mean that results will carry over to the playing field. I think you could win a championship, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you are a good clubhouse leader, and you could be a good clubhouse leader, but on a last place team. I don’t think results on the field automatically carry over to the clubhouse, and vice versa, so if you are saying the club has a losing record this year, because the clubhouse leaders are bad, and the team needs new ones the you could say the same thing about the manager could you not?

Edited September 19, 2022 by Old Red

[cp176]

Again, I am not disagreeing. I know clubhouse chemistry matters. My position is not exclusive of this.

 

My point is that maybe the clubhouse leaders weren't all that great, this year, and changing them might help in the long run, even if it causes some immediate grumblings among the team.

 

Maybe it's worse after a change is made. I'm just saying nothing was working, this year.

 

Team chemistry begins and ends with the coach and the way he relates to his players. I think that players like playing for Cora which can be a very good thing but depending on the type of player you are working with it can present some problems.

[Bellhorn04]

You can be a good clubhouse leader, but that doesn’t mean that results will carry over to the playing field. I think you could win a championship, but that doesn’t necessarily mean you are a good clubhouse leader, and you could be a good clubhouse leader, but on a last place team. I don’t think results on the field automatically carry over to the clubhouse, and vice versa, so if you are saying the club has a losing record this year, because the clubhouse leaders are bad, and the team needs new ones the you could say the same thing about the manager could you not?

 

It can be used against players, too. Varitek was considered a clubhouse leader, and when the Sox collapsed in 2011 and had all the finger-pointing, he was getting blamed for not providing leadership.