2022 Starting Rotation Thread

[Bellhorn04]

Over Whitlock and/or Houck?

 

You're right, what I meant was our traditional pitch the 9th closer types.

[notin]

You're right, what I meant was our traditional pitch the 9th closer types.

 

The original bullpen had 3 experienced closers in Barnes, Robles, and Diekman.

 

Barnes just can’t get it together. Robles is the lucky version of Brasier. And Diekman is subject to bouts of wildness and a ridiculously predictable over-dependence on his slider.

 

To me, that leaves Houck…

[Old Red]

The original bullpen had 3 experienced closers in Barnes, Robles, and Diekman.

 

Barnes just can’t get it together. Robles is the lucky version of Brasier. And Diekman is subject to bouts of wildness and a ridiculously predictable over-dependence on his slider.

 

To me, that leaves Houck…

 

We’re 40+games into the season, and the Red Sox league the league in blown saves. What to hell are they waiting for?

[moonslav59]

We’re 40+games into the season, and the Red Sox league the league in blown saves. What to hell are they waiting for?

 

Hopefully, not beyond game 41.

 

I doubt anyone will trade a top closer, now, so it's Houck or Whitlock, to me.

 

I'm not sure what Cora is waiting for, either.

[mvp 78]

Things could always be worse.

 

It's the 10th anniversary of the Daniel Bard game. https://www.fangraphs.com/wins.aspx?date=2012-06-03&team=Red%20Sox&dh=0

 

https://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/15640-June-3-2012-Red-Sox-Blue-Jays

[notin]

We’re 40+games into the season, and the Red Sox league the league in blown saves. What to hell are they waiting for?

 

Certainly not my input…

[mvp 78]

Certainly not my input…

 

If they were waiting on us, they would have put Whitlock or Houck there already. Clearly the tea leaves revealed them a deeper mystery.

[notin]

If they were waiting on us, they would have put Whitlock or Houck there already. Clearly the tea leaves revealed them a deeper mystery.

 

If they wanted to see if last season’s final 9 IP from Barnes were just a fluke or if he recovered from whatever, I get that. But obviously Barnes ha gone well out of his way to prove those innings were no fluke…

[Kimmi]

The original bullpen had 3 experienced closers in Barnes, Robles, and Diekman.

 

Barnes just can’t get it together. Robles is the lucky version of Brasier. And Diekman is subject to bouts of wildness and a ridiculously predictable over-dependence on his slider.

 

To me, that leaves Houck…

 

Speier brought up an interesting point about the Sox grooming Houck for the closer's role.

[Bellhorn04]

Speier brought up an interesting point about the Sox grooming Houck for the closer's role.

 

What was it?

[moonslav59]

Speier brought up an interesting point about the Sox grooming Houck for the closer's role.

 

How long does this "grooming" take?

[Kimmi]

What was it?

 

My bad, it was Abraham, not Speier.

 

Pete Abraham

@peteabe

·

6h

Interesting Houck is warming after pitching 2 innings on Sunday. Maybe they're preparing him for a late-inning role as opposed to long relief.

 

I think this is the direction the Sox are leaning towards. The way they have used Houck in the last 2-3 outings seems to be less of a piggy back role.

[Kimmi]

How long does this "grooming" take?

 

We'll see the next time a save situation comes up!

[Nick]

Let's see how Hill does today. Unless he turns it around, he maybe the candidate to be replaced by Chris Sale.

 

I anxiously wait on Paxton news.

[moonslav59]

Let's see how Hill does today. Unless he turns it around, he maybe the candidate to be replaced by Chris Sale.

 

I anxiously wait on Paxton news.

 

I'm also thinking Hill might do a fine job taking the long relief role from Houck as he transitions into a high leverage shorter inning Rp'er.

 

We might see:

 

1. Eovaldi

2. Wacha

3. Whitlock

4. Sale

5. Pivetta

 

Closer: Houck

Set-up: Schreiber, Strahm

Long Relief: Hill, Paxton

Prayers: Taylor (IL), Barnes, Diekman, Robles, Brasier, Danish, Davis, Sawamura, Valdez

Farm help? German, Kelly, Baszardo, Bello, Seabold, Winckowski, Mata

[Larry Cook]

Hill threw a really nice game today in Oakland.

 

Maybe we chance it to

 

Closer - sale

Set up men - houck, schreiber

[moonslav59]

Hill threw a really nice game today in Oakland.

 

Maybe we chance it to

 

Closer - sale

Set up men - houck, schreiber

 

We should have a chance to see how Houck does as a closer, before Sale comes back.

[Nick]

Kutter held Seattle to one hit despite walking 4 batters. I think he has good stuff.

 

I do enjoy watching some of the minor league pitchers get an opportunity to start for the Sox. Especially when the team is winning with them.

 

Kutter, Winckowski, Seabold, Bello and Matta awaits.

[Larry Cook]

Kutter held Seattle to one hit despite walking 4 batters. I think he has good stuff.

 

I do enjoy watching some of the minor league pitchers get an opportunity to start for the Sox. Especially when the team is winning with them.

 

Kutter, Winckowski, Seabold, Bello and Matta awaits.

 

Winkowski and Seabold have better stuff than some of our current relievers.

 

I would like to see them get a chance to upgrade our bullpen, but not if the major league balls are indeed slicker than minor league balls and they struggle to grip the ball properly, that would put them in a situation where they can’t succeed!

[moonslav59]

Winkowski and Seabold have better stuff than some of our current relievers.

 

I would like to see them get a chance to upgrade our bullpen, but not if the major league balls are indeed slicker than minor league balls and they struggle to grip the ball properly, that would put them in a situation where they can’t succeed!

 

I'm all for giving these guys a shot, and we have tried Winckowski and Crawford, but most of our farm guys are projected as back end starters, at best, so I'm not so sure they clearly have "better stuff." Some of our RP'ers doing very poorly have some pretty good stuff. Some have been getting most of the batters out and have have low OPS Against, but they have just failed at the worst possible moments.

 

I'd like to see German get a shot.

 

I trust Bloom to know when the right time is, but mistakes can be made with these choices.

[notin]

I'm all for giving these guys a shot, and we have tried Winckowski and Crawford, but most of our farm guys are projected as back end starters, at best, so I'm not so sure they clearly have "better stuff." Some of our RP'ers doing very poorly have some pretty good stuff. Some have been getting most of the batters out and have have low OPS Against, but they have just failed at the worst possible moments.

 

I'd like to see German get a shot.

 

I trust Bloom to know when the right time is, but mistakes can be made with these choices.

 

 

There’s nothing wrong with them being backend starters. Every team needs one or two of those as it is…

[moonslav59]

There’s nothing wrong with them being backend starters. Every team needs one or two of those as it is…

 

No, not at all, but let's not be so sure they have nasty stuff that is clearly better than the current RP'ers who are underperforming or, maybe, just plain suck.

 

We all know RP'ers are a fickle bunch. The vast majority are very hard to project production and vary wildly from year-to- year or month-to-month. That may be one reason why managers and GM stick with struggling RP'ers for much longer than many of us would have done. (Another reason might be that the manager has no better options.)

 

I'm not defending our RP'ers, who have sucked so far, this year, or saying that calling up a German, Seabold or someone else isn't a good idea. I'm just saying some of these guys might turn tings around, and some have some nasty stuff and have been pretty good, as recently as last year.

 

Sometimes sticking with a player for a long time fails miserably- sometimes it doesn't.

 

Will Barnes ever come close to what he was even before the first half of 2021?

 

Can Robles pitch like he did at the end of 2021?

 

Was Brasier ever as good as he looked in 2018, or was that just a mirage? (It was a long time ago, but he does seem to throw some good stuff, every so often.)

 

What seems to be the biggest issue with our pen is not so much about them giving up too many hits, walks and homers, it's their timing.

 

We've used 14 pitchers in relief roles, and looking at the numbers I see a few surprising facts:

 

1) Our pen has a .650 OPS Against, whereas our starters have a .282 OPSA. (Note: this is not to say I think they have done a better job, but only to say they've done okay- just not when it counts most.)

 

2) This is the shocker, IMO, out of the 14 RP'ers used this year, only 4 have an OPS Against below the team average of .650.

.742 Diekman

.784 Barnes

.871 Brasier

.908 Crawford (yesterday's hero)

 

3) The Cora bashers will love this one; one main reason our team OPSA is .650 with only 4 of 14 pitchers over .650, is how much those 4 have b een used:

Most PAs Against (in relief ONLY):

104 Houck

100 Diekman

97 Davis

90 Brasier

88 Danish

81 Barnes

80 Sawamura

80 Robles 4 of the top 8

76 Strahm

71 Schreiber

55 Crawford

53 Valdez

35 Whitlock

4 Plawecki

Granted, some of these PAs Against were in mop up roles, and some of our better RP'ers do not go multiple innings, so some context is needed, but some of these PAs have been high leverage or Late & Close by our worst RP'ers, and this is where Cora's choices come into question.

 

Late & Close PAs Against (Note: some may be as a SP'er):

70 Robles (.590 OPSA) I'd have thought it would be much worse than .590.

58 Strahm (.722) I'd have thought his numbers would be better than Robles, here.

51 Diekman (.717) Not really a horrible number.

39 Schreiber (.427) The unsung hero.

27 Davis (.738)

25 Houck (.670) Should see more use in this role going forward

24 Barnes (1.010)

23 Brasier (.998)

18 Whitlock (.278)

14 Danish (1.095) Clearly a 6th or 7th inning guy)

10 Crawford (.800)

7 Sawamura (.629) Cora must not trust him

 

4) Maybe Houck can nail down the closer role. Strahm and Schreiber can be decent back-up closers or solid set-up men, but a winning pen needs to be deeper than 3 pitchers, and none of these 3 have long histories of being very good for full seasons in these roles. It seems obvious we need new blood, either b y trade or by giving some prospect a chance.

 

The question is when?

 

[Nick]

No, not at all, but let's not be so sure they have nasty stuff that is clearly better than the current RP'ers who are underperforming or, maybe, just plain suck.

 

We all know RP'ers are a fickle bunch. The vast majority are very hard to project production and vary wildly from year-to- year or month-to-month. That may be one reason why managers and GM stick with struggling RP'ers for much longer than many of us would have done. (Another reason might be that the manager has no better options.)

 

I'm not defending our RP'ers, who have sucked so far, this year, or saying that calling up a German, Seabold or someone else isn't a good idea. I'm just saying some of these guys might turn tings around, and some have some nasty stuff and have been pretty good, as recently as last year.

 

Sometimes sticking with a player for a long time fails miserably- sometimes it doesn't.

 

Will Barnes ever come close to what he was even before the first half of 2021?

 

Can Robles pitch like he did at the end of 2021?

 

Was Brasier ever as good as he looked in 2018, or was that just a mirage? (It was a long time ago, but he does seem to throw some good stuff, every so often.)

 

What seems to be the biggest issue with our pen is not so much about them giving up too many hits, walks and homers, it's their timing.

 

We've used 14 pitchers in relief roles, and looking at the numbers I see a few surprising facts:

 

1) Our pen has a .650 OPS Against, whereas our starters have a .282 OPSA. (Note: this is not to say I think they have done a better job, but only to say they've done okay- just not when it counts most.)

 

2) This is the shocker, IMO, out of the 14 RP'ers used this year, only 4 have an OPS Against below the team average of .650.

.742 Diekman

.784 Barnes

.871 Brasier

.908 Crawford (yesterday's hero)

 

3) The Cora bashers will love this one; one main reason our team OPSA is .650 with only 4 of 14 pitchers over .650, is how much those 4 have b een used:

Most PAs Against (in relief ONLY):

104 Houck

100 Diekman

97 Davis

90 Brasier

88 Danish

81 Barnes

80 Sawamura

80 Robles 4 of the top 8

76 Strahm

71 Schreiber

55 Crawford

53 Valdez

35 Whitlock

4 Plawecki

Granted, some of these PAs Against were in mop up roles, and some of our better RP'ers do not go multiple innings, so some context is needed, but some of these PAs have been high leverage or Late & Close by our worst RP'ers, and this is where Cora's choices come into question.

 

Late & Close PAs Against (Note: some may be as a SP'er):

70 Robles (.590 OPSA) I'd have thought it would be much worse than .590.

58 Strahm (.722) I'd have thought his numbers would be better than Robles, here.

51 Diekman (.717) Not really a horrible number.

39 Schreiber (.427) The unsung hero.

27 Davis (.738)

25 Houck (.670) Should see more use in this role going forward

24 Barnes (1.010)

23 Brasier (.998)

18 Whitlock (.278)

14 Danish (1.095) Clearly a 6th or 7th inning guy)

10 Crawford (.800)

7 Sawamura (.629) Cora must not trust him

 

4) Maybe Houck can nail down the closer role. Strahm and Schreiber can be decent back-up closers or solid set-up men, but a winning pen needs to be deeper than 3 pitchers, and none of these 3 have long histories of being very good for full seasons in these roles. It seems obvious we need new blood, either b y trade or by giving some prospect a chance.

 

The question is when?

 

 

All good stuff Moon.

 

Robles has been responsible for at least two losses that came last at bat, two out situations. He had two strikes on the guy and he bloops a single. But then, he did not shut it down. That's on HIM.

 

He seems hittable now. Same with Brasier. I have no use for Sawamura and Barnes. Can't we just cut them so I don't have to look at them?

 

Dieckman can't freaking throw strikes. He loves the 3-2 pitch count. He's walked almost a batter per inning. God I wished he didn't have a two year deal.

 

Go ahead and trot out some of minor league arms.

 

The thing with bullpen is knowing sooner rather than later who is struggling.

[mvp 78]

I'm all for giving these guys a shot, and we have tried Winckowski and Crawford, but most of our farm guys are projected as back end starters, at best, so I'm not so sure they clearly have "better stuff." Some of our RP'ers doing very poorly have some pretty good stuff. Some have been getting most of the batters out and have have low OPS Against, but they have just failed at the worst possible moments.

 

I'd like to see German get a shot.

 

I trust Bloom to know when the right time is, but mistakes can be made with these choices.

 

They have more upside that throwing Brasier and Robles out there again. I'd also cut bait on Diekman if I was GM.

[moonslav59]

All good stuff Moon.

 

Robles has been responsible for at least two losses that came last at bat, two out situations. He had two strikes on the guy and he bloops a single. But then, he did not shut it down. That's on HIM.

 

He seems hittable now. Same with Brasier. I have no use for Sawamura and Barnes. Can't we just cut them so I don't have to look at them?

 

Dieckman can't freaking throw strikes. He loves the 3-2 pitch count. He's walked almost a batter per inning. God I wished he didn't have a two year deal.

 

Go ahead and trot out some of minor league arms.

 

The thing with bullpen is knowing sooner rather than later who is struggling.

 

I'm not advocating keeping any of these guys, unless they have options. I'm just saying they all have shown something to stick in the bigs, this long, and all have have shown decent stuff as recently as last year, except Brasier.

 

My other point is that many of the farm names thrown around are not really known for having nasty stuff, except maybe German, who was just recently promoted.

[moonslav59]

They have more upside that throwing Brasier and Robles out there again.

 

Maybe. Maybe not.

 

I'm not saying I'm against calling someone up to replace at least one of these guys, but there is a chance one of these guys could regain their best stuff, again. They have already shown they can be good, at the ML level, for extended times. They just haven't shown it, recently, and we all know how most RP'ers are up and down.

 

I'm not defending giving these guys endless chances, but I think that's what the continuous recycling of our botton 6-8 guys is all about- hoping one or two can turn things around and become the pitchers they were when they were pretty good.

 

Expecting Seabold, Crawford or Winckowski to do well, just because they have "upside" is an unlikely gamble, too.

 

To me, German and maybe Bello are in a separate category, but they may be deemed not ML ready, at this moment.

[moonslav59]

I'd also cut bait on Diekman if I was GM.

 

I had a few head-scratching moments, this winter, and giving this guy two years was one.

 

He's not making big money ($8M/2 counting his 3rd year buyout), but with the very few 2 year deals Bloom has given out, Diekman's seems strange. (Sawamura is another, but at $1.5M per, he's making nearly the min wage.)

 

I doubt Bloom gives up, this quickly, on Diekman, but I share your opinion. He has been deserving of a DFA.

[Larry Cook]

I had a few head-scratching moments, this winter, and giving this guy two years was one.

 

He's not making big money ($8M/2 counting his 3rd year buyout), but with the very few 2 year deals Bloom has given out, Diekman's seems strange. (Sawamura is another, but at $1.5M per, he's making nearly the min wage.)

 

I doubt Bloom gives up, this quickly, on Diekman, but I share your opinion. He has been deserving of a DFA.

 

Any chance Hang’em Chaim trades for a premier set up guy like fulmer?

[Nick]

Eduardo Rodriguez, former Boston Red Sox starter, leaves Tigers for ‘personal reasons;’ future status now in question

 

I'm glad we didn't sign him. BUT I HOPE HE'S OKAY. HE WAS THE ONLY THING THAT MADE ME WATCH THE SOX AFTER HE CAME OVER FROM THE ORIOLES.

 

That year was brutal.

[oldtimer]

Eduardo Rodriguez, former Boston Red Sox starter, leaves Tigers for ‘personal reasons;’ future status now in question

 

I'm glad we didn't sign him. BUT I HOPE HE'S OKAY. HE WAS THE ONLY THING THAT MADE ME WATCH THE SOX AFTER HE CAME OVER FROM THE ORIOLES.

 

That year was brutal.

 

Possibly E-Rod had emotional problems that were known to the Sox, who decided the risk factor of resigning him was too great for the money he could command.