just wondering

[moonslav59]

In my opinion, Bogaerts is the most consistent and best hitter on the team. His defensive issue is primarily his reduced range. It looks like Marcelo Mayer will be ready to make the club in late 2023 or 2024. until then, Bogie could remain our shortstop but after that perhaps he could move to second or third. I hope he can be signed with that understanding.

 

Devers is more of a natural hitter with great hand-eye coordination. He does swing at a lot of balls out of the strike zone. Will he get better plate discipline as he ages? That is not a given. His defensive issues are major and are due to his inconsistency and sloppiness. I don't see there is another position for him so we either accept his error prone ways in order to get his offensive production or we trade him. I expect we will keep him and hope he becomes more of a complete player.

 

I would not try to change Devers' hitting approach. He hits many balls out of the zone for HRs and hits. It's nice to have varied hitting approaches in a given line-up to keep pitchers off balance and unable to find a groove that works against like batters.

 

Clearly, the defensive issue with Devers is throwing. Half his errors are throwing, and that is more than the league norm. I'm not sure how fixable that is. It seems like his footwork is "sloppy" and not consistent, but sometimes he just seems to botch a perfect positioned throw. He has shown he can be a plus defender for very long periods, so I keep thinking, he can and will improve, but then he goes through awful fielding slumps- often when he is struggling to hit as well.

 

Moving him to 1B, LF or DH could happen, but I do not see any Devers move coming in the next year. We aren't swapping his position with Dalbec, so 1B is occupied. With Casas a year or so away, 1B might not be ideal, anyway. It's a tough call, but I want Devers signed, long term.

[notin]

I seriously doubt Bogey agrees to move off SS, and the Sox may not want to do that anyway, at least for a few more years.

 

I hope we lock up Devers long time, but Bogey is a tough call. I'd make him a fair offer, and if he says no, I might see what we can get for him.

 

I'd also ask around about Vaz before taking his $7M contract option.

 

 

I am so not a fan of Bogaerts’ defense, but he is one player where I’ll take the bad with the good.

 

But as he does have a looming opt-out and did hire Scott Boras to advise him on career decisions, I will fully understand if the Sox decide to move him and pursue other avenues….

[moonslav59]

I am so not a fan of Bogaerts’ defense, but he is one player where I’ll take the bad with the good.

 

But as he does have a looming opt-out and did hire Scott Boras to advise him on career decisions, I will fully understand if the Sox decide to move him and pursue other avenues….

 

That's how I see it.

 

I'll add that getting just a sandwich pick for him, if he bolts after 2022, would be a disaster.

[Kimmi]

But fans aren't loyal to the players. This forum makes that obvious. The emotional fans heap abuse on them for playing bad in a particular game. The rational fans talk about how they can be replaced cheaper next year.

 

Am I wrong about that?

 

You are not wrong Bell. There is little loyalty going in either direction. I'm just saying that I wish there was more.

[moonslav59]

You are not wrong Bell. There is little loyalty going in either direction. I'm just saying that I wish there was more.

 

Good to see you back, Kimmi.

[Kimmi]

Good to see you back, Kimmi.

 

Thanks Moon. I just don't seem to have as much internet time these days, for some reason.

[jad]

Thanks Moon. I just don't seem to have as much internet time these days, for some reason.

 

I hope that's because life is good! That's the way it is with me.

[Nick]

So ok - who has the guts here to admit that in fact they might have been wrong with respect to the extensions of both Eovaldi and Sale? Not only are they outstanding players, they have a fierce desire to win plus they appear to be pretty loyal.

 

I liked the Eovaldi extension from perspective of Porcello had only one year remaining on his contract. If I'm GM, I don't want multiple player contracts expiring at the same time, especially those playing similar positions, starting pitching and outfielders come to mind.

 

I'm not sure how much more discount we would have received had extension occurred later in the year for Chris Sale.

 

At this point with Sale back, I don't think we should extend Eovaldi.

 

Everyone is pretty replaceable.

 

Not sure how many more wins we would have had with Betts vs Renfroe, as an example. Renfroe's payroll was 1/10th of Betts. I'm sure we got more than 10% of what Betts produced in 2021 from Renfroe.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Nick

[Nick]

Many of the RPers signed, last winter did not do well.

 

It’s not always about spending the most. The Rays never do.

 

I see every trade from perspective of Rays now......we piss away tons of money. Value, value, value......limit the downside...

[moonslav59]

I see every trade from perspective of Rays now......we piss away tons of money. Value, value, value......limit the downside...

 

I honestly would not mind seeing us do more of what the Rays do, but with a higher budget.

 

That's why I am looking at our one-year control players and thinking about what we can get for them.

 

That being said, we need a solid pitcher, and spending on one via free agency is not the Rays way, but they do go out and get guys like Rich Hill, so think like that but just on a bigger scale.

[mvp 78]

I honestly would not mind seeing us do more of what the Rays do, but with a higher budget.

 

That's why it's not truly Tampa Rays North. Bloom can do Tampa things, but is still able to bury some large dead contracts if he needs to. Tampa can't.

[moonslav59]

That's why it's not truly Tampa Rays North. Bloom can do Tampa things, but is still able to bury some large dead contracts if he needs to. Tampa can't.

 

That's true, but I'm thinking more about trading key players while being a competitive team. We hardly ever do that, and the reasons are obvious, but in terms of a long term winning strategy, it can be helpful to a big market team, too.

 

I don't think the only reason TB traded players like Archer and Snell was financial. I think they do it to improve the roster as the main reason. If you keep doing that, you continually have young players coming up (from previous trades) to take the places of the new guys you are trading. The problem is getting that strategy started, when you have nobody from a previous trade, and the fall out from the media and fans when trading a star.

 

Look what happened with Betts, and that was a classic TBR type move. Imagine us trading Bogey, JD and Vaz, this winter for prospects. Even if we went on to sign Baez, Schwarber and Pina, something the Rays couldn't do, our fans and media would still be irate.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

That's true, but I'm thinking more about trading key players while being a competitive team. We hardly ever do that, and the reasons are obvious, but in terms of a long term winning strategy, it can be helpful to a big market team, too.

 

I don't think the only reason TB traded players like Archer and Snell was financial. I think they do it to improve the roster as the main reason. If you keep doing that, you continually have young players coming up (from previous trades) to take the places of the new guys you are trading. The problem is getting that strategy started, when you have nobody from a previous trade, and the fall out from the media and fans when trading a star.

 

Look what happened with Betts, and that was a classic TBR type move. Imagine us trading Bogey, JD and Vaz, this winter for prospects. Even if we went on to sign Baez, Schwarber and Pina, something the Rays couldn't do, our fans and media would still be irate.

 

Tampa doesn't just build by dealing established big leaguers. The Rays also takes risks like everyone else, like signing Charlie Morton, who turned out to be maybe the best free agent starting pitcher that year, and trading a minor league pitcher who was their first round pick for a guy with 20 big league at bats: Arozarena.

[mvp 78]

That's true, but I'm thinking more about trading key players while being a competitive team. We hardly ever do that, and the reasons are obvious, but in terms of a long term winning strategy, it can be helpful to a big market team, too.

 

So like trading some guys at the deadline when you're in first place because the prices are outrageous and you really want to restock the farm?

[moonslav59]

Tampa doesn't just build by dealing established big leaguers. The Rays also takes risks like everyone else, like signing Charlie Morton, who turned out to be maybe the best free agent starting pitcher that year, and trading a minor league pitcher who was their first round pick for a guy with 20 big league at bats: Arozarena.

 

Indeed. They do make signings like Morton and Rich Hill, and even make trades for guys like Cruz.

 

They also traded Adames, this year.

 

One area where they really excel is identifying and correctly valuing talent in other teams' farm systems and ML rosters. Maybe part of it is seeing a tweak that can be made to improve a player they want to acquire, but by far, their biggest additions to their roster come not from draft picks. They actually just do okay with the draft.

 

Their strength is picking up players from other teams and either watching them be or turning them into studs.

 

They are not afraid to trade players that look like studs, even if they are low paid- like Snell, when they get multiple players back that often more than one turn out better than who they traded.

 

That is one area Bloom might do very well in, but the strategy might not be accepted in a "big market" environment, despite it being a proven winning strategy, if done right.

[jad]

But "doing things the Tampa way" makes more baseball than business sense. What are their attendance numbers like?

[moonslav59]

So like trading some guys at the deadline when you're in first place because the prices are outrageous and you really want to restock the farm?

 

They make many of these moves in the offseason, and rarely at the deadline.

 

Once you get in the groove, it works, because you have guys you traded for, last year and the year before waiting in the wings, but getting started with this plan is highly problematic with any team, let a lone a big market one with fans watching every move you make like a hawk.

 

I actually stated, it is not always about "outrageous prices" with the Rays. Snell's contract was not bad.

 

Am I certain I want Bloom to adopt this strategy? No. For one, it has to work, right away. There is no room for mistakes, of he's out of a job.

 

I do, however, see the value in trading Bogey and/or JD and Vaz, this winter rather than lose them for nothing.

 

The harder choice is someone like Devers. TB would be thinking of trading him, now, before his arb payments get to high and knowing they cannot afford him. This is where the Sox can diverge from the "Rays Plan" and splurge on certain players like him.

 

I would like to see us try some kind of hybrid plan. I'm probably more willing to trade key players than most posters, but I know it's a huge gamble, and I'm putting my faith in Bloom's evaluation of the return package we get. That faith may be misplaced. I get that.

[moonslav59]

But "doing things the Tampa way" makes more baseball than business sense. What are their attendance numbers like?

 

They do not draw well, because most of the people living in the area are established fans of other teams, not because they trade their studs, IMO.

[mvp 78]

But "doing things the Tampa way" makes more baseball than business sense. What are their attendance numbers like?

 

Attendance numbers are partially due to where the stadium is located. They have really decent tv ratings.

[jad]

There are always excuses for why a business doesn't do well, just as there are for when each of us does something wrong. There are counter-arguments too, like "a good portion of Tampa's revenue (and apparent interest in their team) comes from fans of other teams." I suppose one could say that's a shrewd business decision in some sense (contrary to my argument above). The American business model? why pay your employees when you can mooch off the employees of your competitor?

[Nick]

The harder choice is someone like Devers. TB would be thinking of trading him, now, before his arb payments get to high and knowing they cannot afford him. This is where the Sox can diverge from the "Rays Plan" and splurge on certain players like him.

 

Bloom will continue to develop our farm system. That way we can indeed splurge from time to time on a player such as Devers. We'll have cheaper alternatives at several positions.

[Kimmi]

I hope that's because life is good! That's the way it is with me.

 

Good to hear. Life is good, but it's also very busy!

[Kimmi]

That's why it's not truly Tampa Rays North. Bloom can do Tampa things, but is still able to bury some large dead contracts if he needs to. Tampa can't.

 

I'm not saying that Bloom hasn't made some mistakes, but what he has done with the franchise in the short time that he's been here is really rather incredible.

 

As Nick said, value, value, value.

[moonslav59]

The harder choice is someone like Devers. TB would be thinking of trading him, now, before his arb payments get to high and knowing they cannot afford him. This is where the Sox can diverge from the "Rays Plan" and splurge on certain players like him.

 

Bloom will continue to develop our farm system. That way we can indeed splurge from time to time on a player such as Devers. We'll have cheaper alternatives at several positions.

 

We lose some salary, this winter without many major holes to fill due to players moving on. (Pedey, Richards, Ottavino, Perez & maybe ERod)

 

Next winter, we lose even more, but some will be hard to replace:

$22M JD

$20M Bogey

$17M Eovaldi

$15M Price

$7M Vaz

 

We can afford Devers, a big contract (pitcher) and a bunch of mid rangers, but we have very little wiggle room for mistakes, at least until we can get some more farm contributions (Casas, Seabold, Bello, Duran, Wickowksi and more.)

[mvp 78]

I'm not saying that Bloom hasn't made some mistakes, but what he has done with the franchise in the short time that he's been here is really rather incredible.

 

As Nick said, value, value, value.

 

I wouldn't say incredible, but I'd say he definitely found some great value. Hard to complain when Yorke, Blaze, Mayer and Whitlock all appear to be great pipeline additions. I don't think the 2020 Sox were as bad as their record showed. Simple additions to the starting rotation really turned the record around. Overlooking thoughts on trading Betts, I don't see how anyone could grade him less than a B+.

[mvp 78]

We lose some salary, this winter without many major holes to fill due to players moving on. (Pedey, Richards, Ottavino, Perez & maybe ERod)

 

Next winter, we lose even more, but some will be hard to replace:

$22M JD

$20M Bogey

$17M Eovaldi

$15M Price

$7M Vaz

 

We can afford Devers, a big contract (pitcher) and a bunch of mid rangers, but we have very little wiggle room for mistakes, at least until we can get some more farm contributions (Casas, Seabold, Bello, Duran, Wickowksi and more.)

 

This isn't true because the Sox don't have to stay under the salary cap. Ownership can go over whenever they want to.

[Bellhorn04]

This isn't true because the Sox don't have to stay under the salary cap. Ownership can go over whenever they want to.

 

That is true. But they've only gone significantly over the cap twice, in 2018 and 2019, and Henry/Werner apparently didn't care for it all that much.

 

So I think moon is largely correct in looking at the tax cap as the de facto budget cap.

[notin]

I wouldn't say incredible, but I'd say he definitely found some great value. Hard to complain when Yorke, Blaze, Mayer and Whitlock all appear to be great pipeline additions. I don't think the 2020 Sox were as bad as their record showed. Simple additions to the starting rotation really turned the record around. Overlooking thoughts on trading Betts, I don't see how anyone could grade him less than a B+.

 

 

The 2020 Red Sox were eliminated in March when both Sale and ERod went down for the season. That was just too much to replace in too little time…

[Bellhorn04]

The 2020 Red Sox were eliminated in March when both Sale and ERod went down for the season. That was just too much to replace in too little time…

 

2020 was just an unstoppable snowballing cluster. You're right about Sale and Erod, but Cora, Betts, Price, Porcello and others were also gone for various reasons.

 

If ever there was a perfect time to tank...

[mvp 78]

That is true. But they've only gone significantly over the cap twice, in 2018 and 2019, and Henry/Werner apparently didn't care for it all that much.

 

So I think moon is largely correct in looking at the tax cap as the de facto budget cap.

 

But they have gone over whether "significantly" or not. They would like to stay under, but they have the ability to go over.