A Realistic View at 2022: Part I

[mvp 78]

I don't think Eck was the first to be called a closer, but I may be wrong on that.

 

I couldn't find the origins of "closer" as a baseball term. I think the first guy to exclusively be used as a one inning reliever was Bruce Sutter. Tony gets a lot of credit for making baseball games infernally long, but Cubs manager Herman Franks really started the damn thing with Sutter. Even John Franco was a "closer" before Eck was put into that role in 1988.

[moonslav59]

It's nice to have both profiles on your staff IMHO.

 

Indeed.

 

If we can get 120-140 Relief innings from Houck and Whitlock, an enormous strain will be lifted from the 1 inning guys.

 

That presupposes we solidify our rotation without the need for Whitlock or Houck as starters.

[mvp 78]

It's nice to have both profiles on your staff IMHO.

 

Yes, I think a great bullpen has the "closer" and the "fireman." You need a guy that can just go out there and close out games (Urbina, Kimbrel, Paplebon), but you also need that relief ace that can come in and just shut down a dangerous situation at any point in the game.

[notin]

I couldn't find the origins of "closer" as a baseball term. I think the first guy to exclusively be used as a one inning reliever was Bruce Sutter. Tony gets a lot of credit for making baseball games infernally long, but Cubs manager Herman Franks really started the damn thing with Sutter. Even John Franco was a "closer" before Eck was put into that role in 1988.

 

Sutter threw 1042 career inning in just 661 games. I would not call him a one inning specialist. Even as late as 1984, he threw 122 IP in 71 appearances.

 

With Oakland, Eckersley had 523 relief appearances and only 625 IP. Compared to Sutter, that’s over 400 fewer IP in just 140 fewer appearances. Much closer to the one inning specialist we see today.

[notin]

I couldn't find the origins of "closer" as a baseball term. I think the first guy to exclusively be used as a one inning reliever was Bruce Sutter. Tony gets a lot of credit for making baseball games infernally long, but Cubs manager Herman Franks really started the damn thing with Sutter. Even John Franco was a "closer" before Eck was put into that role in 1988.

 

Dan Quisenberry was one of the earlier “closer” labels I recall. But even he often topped 100 innings per season early on…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Dan Quisenberry was one of the earlier “closer” labels I recall. But even he often topped 100 innings per season early on…

 

LaRussa is (in)famous for modernizing late-inning usage of the 9th-inning closer and regular set-up men -- Eck, after lefty Rick Honeycutt and right Gene Nelson (depending on best match-ups).

 

Joe Torre then took the blueprint and won more pennants and World Series in New York, with Mo Rivera, lefty Mike Stanton and righty Jeff Nelson.

 

The problem that teams and fans have dealt with for over 20 years now is that everyone else felt the need to develop their own automatic 7th-8th-9th guys -- and few, if any -- were ever as dependable as those headlined by Hall of Famers (an interesting study would be to compare the amount of "blown saves" in the bigs pre-Eck -- when one guy who was on was allowed to finish -- and post-Eck -- when so many more fickle relievers were used every night).

 

Rivera was always the one reason the Yankees were always a little better than the Red Sox for a decade. The fact that the Sandman was the deciding factor in so many pennant races and title chases for 16 seasons -- when he was basically the best player in baseball at his position -- makes it befitting he was the first unanimous HOFer.

[notin]

LaRussa is (in)famous for modernizing late-inning usage of the 9th-inning closer and regular set-up men -- Eck, after lefty Rick Honeycutt and right Gene Nelson (depending on best match-ups).

 

Joe Torre then took the blueprint and won more pennants and World Series in New York, with Mo Rivera, lefty Mike Stanton and righty Jeff Nelson.

 

The problem that teams and fans have dealt with for over 20 years now is that everyone else felt the need to develop their own automatic 7th-8th-9th guys -- and few, if any -- were ever as dependable as those headlined by Hall of Famers (an interesting study would be to compare the amount of "blown saves" in the bigs pre-Eck -- when one guy who was on was allowed to finish -- and post-Eck -- when so many more fickle relievers were used every night).

 

Rivera was always the one reason the Yankees were always a little better than the Red Sox for a decade. The fact that the Sandman was the deciding factor in so many pennant races and title chases for 16 seasons -- when he was basically the best player in baseball at his position -- makes it befitting he was the first unanimous HOFer.

 

I still think Rivera gets overrated based on being on Yankee title teams. If you look at 1998 through 2003, a span in which the Yankees appeared in 5 World Series in 6 season, the largely unheralded Rob Nen actually had more fWAR than Rivera (12.9 to 12.4).

 

This certainly doesn’t make Rivera bad at his job by any stretch, but I think his being the first unanimous choice for Cooperstown over, say, Cal Ripken or Junior Griffey, somewhat laughable. If Rivera was on the Giants like Nen was, would he have been voted in unanimously?

[moonslav59]

I still think Rivera gets overrated based on being on Yankee title teams. If you look at 1998 through 2003, a span in which the Yankees appeared in 5 World Series in 6 season, the largely unheralded Rob Nen actually had more fWAR than Rivera (12.9 to 12.4).

 

This certainly doesn’t make Rivera bad at his job by any stretch, but I think his being the first unanimous choice for Cooperstown over, say, Cal Ripken or Junior Griffey, somewhat laughable. If Rivera was on the Giants like Nen was, would he have been voted in unanimously?

 

Cal? Really? Ughh!

 

Mo didn't get in over just 1998-2003; he got in for 1998-2013.

 

In that 16 year stretch, he never had a WHIP over 1.097!

 

He had a 220 ERA+

 

1.060 WHIP

 

He finished his career with a ML record 952 games finished.

652 saves

205 ERA+

1.000 WHIP

.555 OPS Against- basically Marwin Gonzalez with the Sox over his whole career.

.588 v RHB

.524 v LHB

.562 H

.547 A

.562 Late & Close

.598 High leverage

 

How could anyone not vote for him on the first ballot?

[Bellhorn04]

I still think Rivera gets overrated based on being on Yankee title teams. If you look at 1998 through 2003, a span in which the Yankees appeared in 5 World Series in 6 season, the largely unheralded Rob Nen actually had more fWAR than Rivera (12.9 to 12.4).

 

This certainly doesn’t make Rivera bad at his job by any stretch, but I think his being the first unanimous choice for Cooperstown over, say, Cal Ripken or Junior Griffey, somewhat laughable. If Rivera was on the Giants like Nen was, would he have been voted in unanimously?

 

I just realized that Rivera is the flip side of Rick Porcello, in that his fWAR is about 50% lower than his bWAR.

 

Rivera's fWAR is more than double Nen's, so the volume is a big factor.

 

I do tend to agree that being on those Yankee teams made Rivera seem even better than he was.

 

As for the unanimous vote thing, I've always thought the attention paid to that, in general, is stupid.

[Bellhorn04]

And Rivera's postseason record, despite the famous blown saves, is mind-boggling.

[moonslav59]

And Rivera's postseason record, despite the famous blown saves, is mind-boggling.

 

Stunning.

 

141.1 IP

2 HRs

0.759 WHIP

 

(I'm not sure how to find his OPS against, but it must be under .400.)

 

[Nick]

Tampa Bay is calling up No. 20 overall prospect Shane Baz to make his Major League debut Monday with a start against Toronto at Tropicana Field. Baz becomes the sixth current or 2021 preseason Top 100 prospect to play for the Rays this season alongside Wander Franco, Vidal Bruján, Shane McClanahan, Luis Patiño and Josh Lowe.

 

Rays are never afraid to bring up a player........

[moonslav59]

Tampa Bay is calling up No. 20 overall prospect Shane Baz to make his Major League debut Monday with a start against Toronto at Tropicana Field. Baz becomes the sixth current or 2021 preseason Top 100 prospect to play for the Rays this season alongside Wander Franco, Vidal Bruján, Shane McClanahan, Luis Patiño and Josh Lowe.

 

Rays are never afraid to bring up a player........

 

Are you implying the Sox are "afraid" to call up players?

 

BTW, Baz is 22 and began professional ball in 2017.

[Nick]

Are you implying the Sox are "afraid" to call up players?

 

BTW, Baz is 22 and began professional ball in 2017.

 

I think my issue is our fan base that thinks nothing of giving out fat contracts.

 

Examples 1-4)

 

Ray's highest paid player makes $7.5M.

 

We think nothing of it to take the option year on Richards. Our fans sound like my ex-wife. Let's save $1.5M and give Richards $8.5M contract for 2022.

 

We think nothing of it to extend E Rod a qualifying offer. He made $8.3M and now we want to give E Rod $18M for 2022 after the year he had.

 

We think nothing of it to give Xander a raise over his current $20M at the same time we complain about his defense.

 

We think nothing of it to extend Devers to whatever he wants.

 

I rather Sox take $10M + $18M on a guy like Scherzer.

 

I would trade (assuming I can get something which I highly doubt) for Xander.

 

I would trade Devers for 2 young, major league ready pitchers with high ceiling.

 

I think we worry too much that we can't survive without a player A or player B.

 

We're doing just fine without Mookie and his contract.

[Bellhorn04]

Kudos to the Rays for their system, which has done an amazing job turning low payrolls into wins.

 

But let's also not forget it's the Red Sox who have the 4 rings since 2004.

 

Or that Bloom is a Friedman protégé.

[iortiz]

Are you implying the Sox are "afraid" to call up players?

 

BTW, Baz is 22 and began professional ball in 2017.

 

Sox are not afraid. We just don't have that amount of quality pieces.

[iortiz]

Tampa Bay is calling up No. 20 overall prospect Shane Baz to make his Major League debut Monday with a start against Toronto at Tropicana Field. Baz becomes the sixth current or 2021 preseason Top 100 prospect to play for the Rays this season alongside Wander Franco, Vidal Bruján, Shane McClanahan, Luis Patiño and Josh Lowe.

 

Rays are never afraid to bring up a player........

 

Watching Baz. It's early but his stuff is marvelous thus far against a stacked lineup. Geez the Rays know how to pick and develop pitchers man.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I just realized that Rivera is the flip side of Rick Porcello, in that his fWAR is about 50% lower than his bWAR.

 

Rivera's fWAR is more than double Nen's, so the volume is a big factor.

 

I do tend to agree that being on those Yankee teams made Rivera seem even better than he was.

 

As for the unanimous vote thing, I've always thought the attention paid to that, in general, is stupid.

 

WAR, for the most part, seems to slight relief pitchers over any other players, including starting pitchers (I think because of the number of batters faced and retired).

 

As for Rivera's status as an all-timer, there was never a doubt when he was active that Mariano (not Jeter) was the single difference that elevated NY over Boston in an era when the rivalry peaked. The Sox -- or any other team -- just couldn't replicate a pitcher who automatically shortened so many games for 16 seasons.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think my issue is our fan base that thinks nothing of giving out fat contracts.

 

Examples 1-4)

 

Ray's highest paid player makes $7.5M.

 

We think nothing of it to take the option year on Richards. Our fans sound like my ex-wife. Let's save $1.5M and give Richards $8.5M contract for 2022.

 

We think nothing of it to extend E Rod a qualifying offer. He made $8.3M and now we want to give E Rod $18M for 2022 after the year he had.

 

We think nothing of it to give Xander a raise over his current $20M at the same time we complain about his defense.

 

We think nothing of it to extend Devers to whatever he wants.

 

I rather Sox take $10M + $18M on a guy like Scherzer.

 

I would trade (assuming I can get something which I highly doubt) for Xander.

 

I would trade Devers for 2 young, major league ready pitchers with high ceiling.

 

I think we worry too much that we can't survive without a player A or player B.

 

We're doing just fine without Mookie and his contract.

 

I heard an interesting interview with Pedro Martinez, who noted that Sox fans should consider ourselves lucky that we are seeing "Hall of Fame" production out of Bogaerts and Devers on the same side of the infield at the same time together. Offensively, comparing their numbers since 2019 to other contemporary left-side combos and even all-time great combos, Pedro may not be exaggerating.

[moonslav59]

Watching Baz. It's early but his stuff is marvelous thus far against a stacked lineup. Geez the Rays know how to pick and develop pitchers man.

 

Many of their best young players were acquired by trade.

[iortiz]

Many of their best young players were acquired by trade.

Reason why I said they know how to pick.

[Larry Cook]

Many of their best young players were acquired by trade.

 

They definitely know how to identify quality pitchers and develop them.

 

We definitely know how to overdraft stiffs and pray we can make them into relievers.

[Tedballgame]

Yes, I think a great bullpen has the "closer" and the "fireman." You need a guy that can just go out there and close out games (Urbina, Kimbrel, Paplebon), but you also need that relief ace that can come in and just shut down a dangerous situation at any point in the game.

 

Dick Radatz

[moonslav59]

Reason why I said they know how to pick.

 

Most assume they draft great, and they do okay, but yes, many are picked from other farm systems.

[moonslav59]

Just a few...

 

Luis Patino (for Snell)

 

Nick Anderson & Trevor Richards (for Stanek & Sanchez)

 

Baz, Glasnow & Meadows (for Chris Archer)

[Larry Cook]

Just a few...

 

Luis Patino (for Snell)

 

Nick Anderson & Trevor Richards (for Stanek & Sanchez)

 

Baz, Glasnow & Meadows (for Chris Archer)

 

We got pivetta and sale!

[moonslav59]

We got pivetta and sale!

 

Whitlock & Winckowski, too.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Whitlock & Winckowski, too.

 

Casas, Winckowski and Ronaldo H. promoted to Triple A... which one makes the majors first?

 

Probably Josh, in a '22 pitching crunch (twinbill?), when another young arm gets used and is unavailable.

[mvp 78]

Dick Radatz

 

The Monster

[mvp 78]

Casas, Winckowski and Ronaldo H. promoted to Triple A... which one makes the majors first?

 

Probably Josh, in a '22 pitching crunch (twinbill?), when another young arm gets used and is unavailable.

 

Sea Dogs season is over, not surprising these guys are being given a little more run. Casas will be up next season at some point. Depending on what they do with C depth, Hernandez could be #3 which would give him the leg up on reaching BOS first.