A Realistic View at 2022: Part I

[notin]

But that where I differ from so many on here. I could care less about a prospect until they show up a Fenway in a RedSox uniform, and produce, and so far the prospects the Sox got for Betts, or JBJ have not done that, so if, and until they do in the big scheme of things don’t mean a whole heck of a lot except to say we got prospects.

 

Yep. I complained the exact same way when we traded away Slocumb…

[Old Red]

Yep. I complained the exact same way when we traded away Slocumb…

 

That was a great trade, but I don’t think Wong will be a Tek, and there is no Lowe in the bunch.

[moonslav59]

I already knew all of this, and I didn’t say prospects was a dirty word, but only that they don’t mean anything to me unless they get to Fenway Park in a Red Sox uniform, and produce, and that is my main point, which is different from everyone else.

I remember very well you didn’t like the JBJ trade, and caused a big stir when you scratched your head.

 

I guess I just don't understand why prospects mean nothing to you. The more good ones you get, the better the odds some make it. Making deals is all about playing the odds.

 

In theory, Betts, Price, Verdugo, JBJ and Renfroe "aren't worth anything," until we see what they do for the remaining years of team control.

 

I was one who said pay Betts what it takes. I think I even mentioned 12 or 14 year deals. That's how much I wanted him, but I still see the trade as trading 1 year of Betts, since it looked like we weren't going to pay him. We dumped half of Price's deal along the way, at a time we were not going to need him, even if he rebounded to greatness.

 

We got 4 years of Verdugo, salary relief (Betts and 1/2 Price) and a couple dirty words (Downs & Wong) for 1 year of Betts.

 

Like you, I wish we got pitching, and we almost got a good one, but all-in-all, I think the deal was pretty good considering the contexts and nuances involved.

 

I can certainly see the other side of this coin, though.

[moonslav59]

That was a great trade, but I don’t think Wong will be a Tek, and there is no Lowe in the bunch.

 

There's a chance Downs may give a significant plus.

 

Wong looks like a longer shot, but he still has some decent promise, and finding a good catcher is always a hard thing to do: the more we have- the better.

[notin]

That was a great trade, but I don’t think Wong will be a Tek, and there is no Lowe in the bunch.

 

And what did you think of Lowe and Varitek when we got them? Not like these were elite or ranked prospects…

[notin]

I guess I just don't understand why prospects mean nothing to you. The more good ones you get, the better the odds some make it. Making deals is all about playing the odds.

 

In theory, Betts, Price, Verdugo, JBJ and Renfroe "aren't worth anything," until we see what they do for the remaining years of team control.

 

I was one who said pay Betts what it takes. I think I even mentioned 12 or 14 year deals. That's how much I wanted him, but I still see the trade as trading 1 year of Betts, since it looked like we weren't going to pay him. We dumped half of Price's deal along the way, at a time we were not going to need him, even if he rebounded to greatness.

 

We got 4 years of Verdugo, salary relief (Betts and 1/2 Price) and a couple dirty words (Downs & Wong) for 1 year of Betts.

 

Like you, I wish we got pitching, and we almost got a good one, but all-in-all, I think the deal was pretty good considering the contexts and nuances involved.

 

I can certainly see the other side of this coin, though.

 

 

Agreed. The notion that “prospects mean nothing” ignores their usefulness beyond just being minor leaguers. How do you think we got Sale?

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed. The notion that “prospects mean nothing” ignores their usefulness beyond just being minor leaguers. How do you think we got Sale?

 

Yep. No prospects for Dave to trade = no 2018 ring.

[Old Red]

Agreed. The notion that “prospects mean nothing” ignores their usefulness beyond just being minor leaguers. How do you think we got Sale?

 

Well until any of the Mookie prospects, or JBJ prospects make a contribution to the Red Sox, or are used as a trade chip for someone I will stick to my opinion, and it won’t be changed by anyone. I think getting the prospects in the JBJ trade was more exited by some on here than getting JBJ back himself.wow a 3 for 1 trade with prospects coming back. Must be a great trade. NOT.

[notin]

Well until any of the Mookie prospects, or JBJ prospects make a contribution to the Red Sox, or are used as a trade chip for someone I will stick to my opinion, and it won’t be changed by anyone. I think getting the prospects in the JBJ trade was more exited by some on here than getting JBJ back himself.wow a 3 for 1 trade with prospects coming back. Must be a great trade. NOT.

 

So you not only don’t care about the prospects, you look down on people who do…

[Bellhorn04]

Well until any of the Mookie prospects, or JBJ prospects make a contribution to the Red Sox, or are used as a trade chip for someone I will stick to my opinion, and it won’t be changed by anyone. I think getting the prospects in the JBJ trade was more exited by some on here than getting JBJ back himself.wow a 3 for 1 trade with prospects coming back. Must be a great trade. NOT.

 

OK Doubting Thomas LOL

[Old Red]

So you not only don’t care about the prospects, you look down on people who do…

 

No I don’t, and I think it’s the other way around. Just because I said prospects mean nothing to me look how many have gotten riled up about it. You all have your opinion, and I have mine, and I also don’t remember saying any of you are wrong. Of course you all used half my sentence that prospects mean nothing, and jumped from there. I also said they mean nothing unless, or if the prospects become productive in a Red Sox uniform, and then things would change. So far NONE of the prospects in the Mookie, or JBJ trades have done that, and if they do they will mean something. Maybe I should have stirred things up even more, and said this is a head scratcher. That became a hot topic for a time before.

[Bellhorn04]

Just because I said prospects mean nothing to me look how many have gotten riled up about it.

 

I'm not riled up. I just think it's nutty. And I'm not a big prospect lover myself. But I know that they have a lot of potential value. Look at what we got for the prospects Dombrowski traded. That was only a few years ago.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Well until any of the Mookie prospects, or JBJ prospects make a contribution to the Red Sox, or are used as a trade chip for someone I will stick to my opinion, and it won’t be changed by anyone. I think getting the prospects in the JBJ trade was more exited by some on here than getting JBJ back himself.wow a 3 for 1 trade with prospects coming back. Must be a great trade. NOT.

 

Red, we don't know for sure what Bloom was thinking, so is it possible he didn't want Bradley, either, but just agreed to take him back in order to add two guys he really coveted: Pinelas and Hamilton? If that was the case, it was never a Renfroe-for-JBJ plus deal... in effect, Jackie was like Bloom's Price as the price to pay for LA to get Mookie.

[Bellhorn04]

Red, we don't know for sure what Bloom was thinking, so is it possible he didn't want Bradley, either, but just agreed to take him back in order to add two guys he really coveted: Pinelas and Hamilton? If that was the case, it was never a Renfroe-for-JBJ plus deal... in effect, Jackie was like Bloom's Price as the price to pay for LA to get Mookie.

 

Personally I think Price was a pretty small part of the Betts trade. It was a convenient opportunity to get someone to take on half of Price's salary. But I'm pretty sure if the Dodgers said no to it, the trade would have proceeded with little change to what we got back.

 

As for Bradley, I think Bloom feels he still has positive value. His defense should be a plus if nothing else.

[Old Red]

Red, we don't know for sure what Bloom was thinking, so is it possible he didn't want Bradley, either, but just agreed to take him back in order to add two guys he really coveted: Pinelas and Hamilton? If that was the case, it was never a Renfroe-for-JBJ plus deal... in effect, Jackie was like Bloom's Price as the price to pay for LA to get Mookie.

 

So this is what you going with? The team went penny pinching on the Starting Rotation, and they are going to take on JBJ’s contract for 2 prospects that might never make it to the big leagues. I didn’t like the trade as it was, and would hated even more for that reason.

[Bellhorn04]

So this is what you going with? The team went penny pinching on the Starting Rotation, and they are going to take on JBJ’s contract for 2 prospects that might never make it to the big leagues. I didn’t like the trade as it was, and would hated even more for that reason.

 

Well, Red, even if you look at it as Renfroe for Bradley, we traded a .237 career hitter for a .230 career hitter who plays better defense. And the money isn't that much different.

 

So what are you all worked up about?

[Old Red]

I'm not riled up. I just think it's nutty. And I'm not a big prospect lover myself. But I know that they have a lot of potential value. Look at what we got for the prospects Dombrowski traded. That was only a few years ago.

 

Nutty? Ah the name calling will start. When I was talking about prospects I was talking mostly about ones who came back in trades, and not ones drafted by the Sox. I understand about sending prospects back in trades aspect.

[Old Red]

Well, Red, even if you look at it as Renfroe for Bradley, we traded a .237 career hitter for a .230 career hitter who plays better defense. And the money isn't that much different.

 

So what are you all worked up about?

 

You guys are worked up about an opinion that doesn’t match yours, and for the record there was more than me who was against the JBJ trade, so I guess they must have been all worked up too.

[notin]

No I don’t, and I think it’s the other way around. Just because I said prospects mean nothing to me look how many have gotten riled up about it. You all have your opinion, and I have mine, and I also don’t remember saying any of you are wrong. Of course you all used half my sentence that prospects mean nothing, and jumped from there. I also said they mean nothing unless, or if the prospects become productive in a Red Sox uniform, and then things would change. So far NONE of the prospects in the Mookie, or JBJ trades have done that, and if they do they will mean something. Maybe I should have stirred things up even more, and said this is a head scratcher. That became a hot topic for a time before.

 

 

 

Right. The comment about people getting excited over “three for one” deal was meant strictly as complimentary.

 

I don’t watch minor league games either, but all that was done was point out to the advantages of getting the prospects. Renfroe himself wasn’t all that useful in a trade and was only going to get pricier and probably worse.

 

It’s a deal where the Sox probably did help themselves out short and long term…

[notin]

So this is what you going with? The team went penny pinching on the Starting Rotation, and they are going to take on JBJ’s contract for 2 prospects that might never make it to the big leagues. I didn’t like the trade as it was, and would hated even more for that reason.

 

The cheaper rotation is probably because he Sox don’t want to overcommit before knowing the spending rules.

 

And if that is the case, the lockout has probably helped the Sox…

[Bellhorn04]

You guys are worked up about an opinion that doesn’t match yours, and for the record there was more than me who was against the JBJ trade, so I guess they must have been all worked up too.

 

You've been complaining loudly about the trade ever since it was made. But it's the people defending the trade you say are getting "worked up". Funny how that works.

[Old Red]

Right. The comment about people getting excited over “three for one” deal was meant strictly as complimentary.

 

I don’t watch minor league games either, but all that was done was point out to the advantages of getting the prospects. Renfroe himself wasn’t all that useful in a trade and was only going to get pricier and probably worse.

 

It’s a deal where the Sox probably did help themselves out short and long term…

 

There is Nothing wrong about getting excited over prospects, and there is Nothing wrong about not getting excited over prospects.

[Old Red]

You've been complaining loudly about the trade ever since it was made. But it's the people defending the trade you say are getting "worked up". Funny how that works.

 

And like I said I’m not the only one on here who complained about the trade.

[Old Red]

The cheaper rotation is probably because he Sox don’t want to overcommit before knowing the spending rules.

 

And if that is the case, the lockout has probably helped the Sox…

 

You can go with that, and I’ll go with Bloom didn’t have much of an allowance to spend from JH.

[Bellhorn04]

You can go with that, and I’ll go with Bloom didn’t have much of an allowance to spend from JH.

 

Well, he did sign 3 guys-Paxton, Wacha and Hill. Plus exercising Vaz's option, plus the extra salary for JBJ. Plus arb raises. It all adds up.

 

We'll be close to the tax threshold one way or another.

[notin]

You can go with that, and I’ll go with Bloom didn’t have much of an allowance to spend from JH.

 

He probably didn’t, especially since he didn’t know what penalties of any the new CBA would bring.

 

It’s probably not a coincidence that most of the highest spending teams were relatively silent before the lockout…

[Bellhorn04]

He probably didn’t, especially since he didn’t know what penalties of any the new CBA would bring.

 

It’s probably not a coincidence that most of the highest spending teams were relatively silent before the lockout…

 

The Yankees did absolute zero.

[notin]

The Yankees did absolute zero.

 

I think the Dodgers just brought back Chris Taylor. The Mets did go on a spending spree for a while…

[notin]

The Yankees did absolute zero.

 

And if the Yankees and Sox (and a few others?) had some ownership-imposed spending freeze/limits until the new CBA was worked out, what do you think the remaining free agent class might look like by that time?

[moonslav59]

Well until any of the Mookie prospects, or JBJ prospects make a contribution to the Red Sox, or are used as a trade chip for someone I will stick to my opinion, and it won’t be changed by anyone. I think getting the prospects in the JBJ trade was more exited by some on here than getting JBJ back himself.wow a 3 for 1 trade with prospects coming back. Must be a great trade. NOT.

 

I don't recall anyone saying it was a great trade.

 

I recall hearing things like this...

 

"Bloom must really like these prospects..." (not the same as saying these prospects are going to be good.)

 

"Bloom must think JBJ will bounce back..."/ "Bloom must think Renfroe will regress..."

 

"The cost of Renfroe's arbs lessens the fininacial cost of JBJ's contract..." (not fully, of course)

 

On the Betts trade, one could argue we won the trade, even if the prospects give us zilch. 4 years of Verdugo vs 1 year of Betts (a year we finished nearly worst in the league.)

 

The JBJ trade may be rated based on how well JBJ & Renfroe do, without any input from Hamilton or Binelas.

 

The Beni trade was basically all about prospetcs- none of whom have given any pluses in the bigs... yet.

 

The Sox don't have many examples like VTek & Lowe, because we are usually the ones trading prospects for experience, but there are countless examples where the prospects contribute enough to tip the scales.

 

Of course, there are countless examples where they don't, as well.