trade deadline

[jad]

Nope.

 

On the bright side, this is still a team that won over 60% of its games over the last 4 months and since players don’t act like fans, they won’t quit…

 

Since when are fans of the entertainment industry obliged to 'tough it out'? So if some series I'm watching on Netfix sucks, I have the moral obligation to keep watching to the end?

[notin]

The 2018 team was the greatest Red Sox team in 100 years and they added Ian Kinsler, Nate Eovaldi and Steve Pearce (World Series MVP). Those were significant additions to a team that was rolling.

 

They turned out to be great additions. But this was definitely a post prime Kinsler and Pearce was a career journeyman bench guy. Hopefully Schwarber can do as well, but at least he has a better resume pre-acquisition. Let’s face it - no one thought Pearce would turn into a season-changing acquisition when he was acquired…

[notin]

Since when are fans of the entertainment industry obliged to 'tough it out'? So if some series I'm watching on Netfix sucks, I have the moral obligation to keep watching to the end?

 

No. But do you think Sox players think the team badly needed help? Do you think the pitchers think “I can’t do this. We need better pitching. Do you think their teammates feel that way?

[Bellhorn04]

No. But do you think Sox players think the team badly needed help? Do you think the pitchers think “I can’t do this. We need better pitching. Do you think their teammates feel that way?

 

I don't doubt that E-Rod, Richards and Perez are trying. They're just sucking.

 

Frankly what most fans wanted was not for Richards and/or Perez to keep trying, but to be jettisoned in favor of someone better.

 

As for their teammates, if some of them were dead honest, yes, I think they probably felt that way too.

[moonslav59]

Anybody see how the playoff and WS odds changed after the deadline?

[illinoisredsox]

For those clamoring for Sale to be brought up now, some things to consider. He hasn't pitched in 2 years. He is basically in spring training. He's only pitched 10 1/3 innings over 3 games between the Florida Coast League Red Sox and Portland. They have to get him stretched out.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

I think there is good reason to criticize Bloom after the trade deadline but that criticism shouldn't revolve around starting pitching--the 2 available SP upgrades went for sky-high prices. Rather, Bloom failed to obtain a starting 1b and that seems problematic to me, perhaps even inexcusable.

 

Kyle S. might be able to handle first base, but doesn't have experience at the position and could be used elsewhere and might totally suck at 1b. No one knows if Kyle S. can settle in at 1b or not, the Red Sox don't know, and that isn't good enough. The position is a major area of weakness, and so get it fixed. You can still acquire Kyle S.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Bellhorn04]

I think there is good reason to criticize Bloom after the trade deadline but that criticism shouldn't revolve around starting pitching--the 2 available SP upgrades went for sky-high prices. Rather, Bloom failed to obtain a starting 1b and that seems problematic to me, perhaps even inexcusable.

 

Kyle S. might be a first baseman, but doesn't have experience at the position and could be used elsewhere and might totally suck at 1b. No one knows if Kyle S. can settle in at 1b or not, the Red Sox don't know, and that isn't good enough. The position is a major area of weakness, get if fixed. You can still acquire Kyle S.

 

But maybe the reason for not getting a quality first baseman was the same as the reason for not getting a starting pitcher - the price.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

But maybe the reason for not getting a quality first baseman was the same as the reason for not getting a starting pitcher - the price.

 

That sounds like a major stretch to me. I wasn't in the room making phone calls and so I can't provide definitive proof one way or the other. But we do know that starting pitchers have significantly more value attached to them than first baseman and so assuming that the baseball universe hasn't radically changed over the last few days it is reasonable to conclude that the Red Sox could have acquired a 1b upgrade without trading prospects like Bello and Casas. The Tigers season is over, J.Schoop is a free agent at the end of the year, a rental on the trade market, I doubt the asking price was outrageous. Look at what the Yankees gave up for Rizzo, something good, but a lower level lottery ticket and the Red Sox have a few of them around to use in a deal.

[a700hitter]

They turned out to be great additions. But this was definitely a post prime Kinsler and Pearce was a career journeyman bench guy. Hopefully Schwarber can do as well, but at least he has a better resume pre-acquisition. Let’s face it - no one thought Pearce would turn into a season-changing acquisition when he was acquired…

All needs were addressed that season. Post prime Kinsler had a bunch of hits in his first game which was part of a 4 game kill shot series against the Yankees. He ran the bases so much that he blew out his hammy. But for that hammy, he would have contributed much more. You neglected to mention the biggest piece of all — Eovaldi. This team’s biggest need is also starting pitching ... and it wasn’t addressed. Stop making excuses. The need is still there. Sale can’t pitch 3 times a week.

[a700hitter]

No. But do you think Sox players think the team badly needed help? Do you think the pitchers think “I can’t do this. We need better pitching. Do you think their teammates feel that way?

I think the players expected reinforcements. Heck, Barnes offered to go back to the 8th inning if Kimbrel came back to the Sox.

[a700hitter]

But maybe the reason for not getting a quality first baseman was the same as the reason for not getting a starting pitcher - the price.

Other teams paid the price necessary to fill their needs, so why give Bloom the excuse of “the price”?

[Bellhorn04]

Other teams paid the price necessary to fill their needs, so why give Bloom the excuse of “the price”?

 

The truth is, I like to speculate, try to solve riddles, figure out motives et cetera.

 

Maybe Bloom was given a strict mandate on how much salary to take on. Or maybe he was too conservative. There are a lot of possible explanations. Maybe none that will satisfy us as fans.

[moonslav59]

For those clamoring for Sale to be brought up now, some things to consider. He hasn't pitched in 2 years. He is basically in spring training. He's only pitched 10 1/3 innings over 3 games between the Florida Coast League Red Sox and Portland. They have to get him stretched out.

 

Pitch him the same amount of innings he’d have pitched with Portland. Those 50 pitches or so will likely be better than Richards or Perez.

[notin]

All needs were addressed that season. Post prime Kinsler had a bunch of hits in his first game which was part of a 4 game kill shot series against the Yankees. He ran the bases so much that he blew out his hammy. But for that hammy, he would have contributed much more. You neglected to mention the biggest piece of all — Eovaldi. This team’s biggest need is also starting pitching ... and it wasn’t addressed. Stop making excuses. The need is still there. Sale can’t pitch 3 times a week.

 

First of all, you’re judging those deals based on what happened, not on how they looked at the time. If you do that, it’s not fair to compare them to a bunch of players who haven’t played yet.

 

Second, I’m not making excuses. I’ve repeatedly said he went after the wrong targets because they all went for better prospects than the Sox had. Keibert Ruiz, Josiah Gray, Austin Martin - all better grabs than Casas so pretending Bloom wouldn’t deal him is just pointing fingers with no actual proof.

 

Now I am glad we at least got some arms and hope the plan is to roll Sale and Houck into the rotation to help finish the season. I’m just pointing out the Sox have never added some big name Scherzer/Berrios addition at the deadline in a year they won it all..

[notin]

But maybe the reason for not getting a quality first baseman was the same as the reason for not getting a starting pitcher - the price.

 

The price for Rizzo using Fangraphs rankings was Alcantara (FV 50) and Vizcaino (FV 45). Equivalent from the Sox might be Casas(50) and Houck (45)

 

Other players could have been substituted for Houck, but you get the idea…

[Fan_since_Boggs]

The price for Rizzo using Fangraphs rankings was Alcantara (FV 50) and Vizcaino (FV 45). Equivalent from the Sox might be Casas(50) and Houck (45)

 

Other players could have been substituted for Houck, but you get the idea…

 

Absurd. Houck has the same value of Vizcaino? Alcantara has the same value as Casas? I don't buy it.

 

Trade Casas and Houck for two months of Rizzo. LOL.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Fan_since_Boggs

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Other teams paid the price necessary to fill their needs, so why give Bloom the excuse of “the price”?

 

A question for Clint Eastwood: would you trade Casas and Bello for Jose Berrios? Let's say the Twins accepted that deal, you would want the Red Sox to do it?

 

For me, that price is too high and the price the Dodgers paid in the Max Sherzier deal was even higher.

 

I guess the Red Sox could have tried to acquire a lower level pitcher like Rich Hill. The Red Sox could have gone hard after Kyle Gibson, although it sounds like he didn't come cheap either.

 

As I saw it, either the price was too high OR the SP wasn't good enough. There were only a couple of available starting pitchers on the trade market better than E-Rod and, again, the price was sky high for those guys.

 

Of course, the situation at 1b was completely different. Starting 1b are easier to acquire and yet the Red Sox didn't trade for one even though it is a desperate need.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Fan_since_Boggs

[a700hitter]

The truth is, I like to speculate, try to solve riddles, figure out motives et cetera.

 

Maybe Bloom was given a strict mandate on how much salary to take on. Or maybe he was too conservative. There are a lot of possible explanations. Maybe none that will satisfy us as fans.

Maybe none that will satisfy the final standings. I am being repetitive, but when you are in first place 100 games into the season with one of the best records in baseball, that is the time to spend your chips/money.

[a700hitter]

A question for Clint Eastwood: would you trade Casas and Bello for Jose Berrios? Let's say the Twins accepted that deal, you would want the Red Sox to do it?

 

For me, that price is too high and the price the Dodgers paid in the Max Sherzier deal was even higher.

 

I guess the Red Sox could have tried to acquire a lower level pitcher like Rich Hill. The Red Sox could have gone hard after Kyle Gibson, although it sounds like he didn't come cheap either.

 

As I saw it, either the price was too high OR the SP wasn't good enough. There were only a couple of available starting pitchers on the trade market better than E-Rod and, again, the price was sky high for those guys.

 

Of course, the situation at 1b was completely different. Starting 1b are easier to acquire and yet the Red Sox didn't trade for one even though it is a desperate need.

If I answer that I would not make that trade, it is specious reasoning to think that would absolve Bloom for not getting what this team needs down the stretch. And maybe I would have done the deal to get Scherzer. After all, it is Scherzer, and I would feel pretty good going into the post season with Scherzer and Sale at the top of the rotation.

[Nick]

If I answer that I would not make that trade, it is specious reasoning to think that would absolve Bloom for not getting what this team needs down the stretch. And maybe I would have done the deal to get Scherzer. After all, it is Scherzer, and I would feel pretty good going into the post season with Scherzer and Sale at the top of the rotation.

 

We just traded our 1st round pick, Michael Chavis for ham sandwich. Minor leaguers exist to serve the major league team.

[a700hitter]

we just traded our 1st round pick, michael chavis for ham sandwich. Minor leaguers exist to serve the major league team.

bingo!

[notin]

But maybe the reason for not getting a quality first baseman was the same as the reason for not getting a starting pitcher - the price.

 

If I answer that I would not make that trade, it is specious reasoning to think that would absolve Bloom for not getting what this team needs down the stretch. And maybe I would have done the deal to get Scherzer. After all, it is Scherzer, and I would feel pretty good going into the post season with Scherzer and Sale at the top of the rotation.

 

Done what deal to get Scherzer? The Sox didn’t have the prospects to compete with the ones the Dodgers gave up.

[a700hitter]

Done what deal to get Scherzer? The Sox didn’t have the prospects to compete with the ones the Dodgers gave up.

Do we know what he offered? Maybe if he offered more than he did, he would have landed him. Maybe he could have taken salary. We don’t know if he could have gotten him. It’s pure apologist speculation by you. All we know is that the first place team made no significant moves to address the team needs. The 3 teams chasing the Red Sox made several significant moves. That’s all that we know. But continue with your excuses and be prepared to continue with those excuses if this team collapses and doesn’t make the post season.

[notin]

Do we know what he offered? Maybe if he offered more than he did, he would have landed him. Maybe he could have taken salary. We don’t know if he could have gotten him. It’s pure apologist speculation by you. All we know is that the first place team made no significant moves to address the team needs. The 3 teams chasing the Red Sox made several significant moves. That’s all that we know. But continue with your excuses and be prepared to continue with those excuses if this team collapses and doesn’t make the post season.

 

 

What we know is Scherzer was traded for anything better than the Sox had. That’s a fact.

 

It’s like if Bloom was at an auction and only had $100. And everything he bid on went for $200. And then you got mad at him for not spending his $100.

 

Now what Bloom should have done is ignored Scherzer and Berrios and focused on other SP. Even Kyle Gibson netted a prospect (BA#27 Spencer Howard) better anyone in the Sox system on several scales.

 

Not sure who you think Bloom was supposed to deal to get Scherzer, considering he was traded in a deal that sent back two highly ranked prospects in Keibert Ruiz and Josiah Gray, both of whom already reached MLB. Maybe if Jeter Downs wasn’t flopping this year, Bloom would have had better chips. Maybe if Mata and Ward didn’t miss the season with TJ. No idea if he would have sent them, but not having those three is a big, big deal.

 

Heck I thought the main reason he acquired Schwarber was to make Duran available. I have no idea if it’s true, but it makes more sense than getting him to play 1b.

 

Bloom got outbid. So did AJ Preller, whom everyone said had a deal in place for Scherzer and had even better prospects to deal.

 

No one is saying Bloom had a good deadline. I’m saying he got outbid by teams who had better prospects than Bloom had. And I am right that even if Bloom put all his good prospects on the table at once, he still falls short of what Washington and Minnesota got in their deals…

[moonslav59]

Schwarber was significant.

 

Our farm was hardly touched.

 

I feel much better about 2022, and still love our chances of winning the division or at worst, winning a WC slot.

 

The Dodgers, Yanks and others overpaid. It’s pretty certain we’d have had to do the same or more to land any of the top players. Let’s save the overpays for this winter’s free agents.

[notin]

A question for Clint Eastwood: would you trade Casas and Bello for Jose Berrios? Let's say the Twins accepted that deal, you would want the Red Sox to do it?[/Quote]

 

Yes!! All day. But Minnesota got BA#16 Austin Martin and BA#69 Simeon Woods-Richardson for him. BA#47 and an unranked guy is clearly not enough.

 

For me, that price is too high and the price the Dodgers paid in the Max Sherzier deal was even higher.

 

It’s not.

 

I guess the Red Sox could have tried to acquire a lower level pitcher like Rich Hill. The Red Sox could have gone hard after Kyle Gibson, although it sounds like he didn't come cheap either.

 

Even Gibson returned Spencer Howard (BA#27)

 

Bloom got outspent by people with better prospects

[moonslav59]

Yes!! All day. But Minnesota got BA#16 Austin Martin and BA#69 Simeon Woods-Richardson for him. BA#47 and an unranked guy is clearly not enough.

 

 

 

It’s not.

 

 

 

Even Gibson returned Spencer Howard (BA#27)

 

Bloom got outspent by people with better prospects

 

And if he tried to wow them with quantity, we have emptied the farm just months after not learning the lesson of 2020.

 

Plus, we are not sure even quantity would have been enough.

[a700hitter]

What we know is Scherzer was traded for anything better than the Sox had. That’s a fact.

 

It’s like if Bloom was at an auction and only had $100. And everything he bid on went for $200. And then you got mad at him for not spending his $100.

 

Now what Bloom should have done is ignored Scherzer and Berrios and focused on other SP. Even Kyle Gibson netted a prospect (BA#27 Spencer Howard) better anyone in the Sox system on several scales.

 

Not sure who you think Bloom was supposed to deal to get Scherzer, considering he was traded in a deal that sent back two highly ranked prospects in Keibert Ruiz and Josiah Gray, both of whom already reached MLB. Maybe if Jeter Downs wasn’t flopping this year, Bloom would have had better chips. Maybe if Mata and Ward didn’t miss the season with TJ. No idea if he would have sent them, but not having those three is a big, big deal.

 

Heck I thought the main reason he acquired Schwarber was to make Duran available. I have no idea if it’s true, but it makes more sense than getting him to play 1b.

 

Bloom got outbid. So did AJ Preller, whom everyone said had a deal in place for Scherzer and had even better prospects to deal.

 

No one is saying Bloom had a good deadline. I’m saying he got outbid by teams who had better prospects than Bloom had. And I am right that even if Bloom put all his good prospects on the table at once, he still falls short of what Washington and Minnesota got in their deals…

And he didn’t have the chips or the dough to land any starting pitchers? What about first baseman? Not having the chips to land Scherzer is one thing, but not having the chips to land any decent starting pitcher is something I can’t buy into. You completely foreclose the possibility that Bloom was simply not willing to spend the chips to get a starting pitcher or first baseman.

[notin]

And he didn’t have the chips or the dough to land any starting pitchers? What about first baseman? Not having the chips to land Scherzer is one thing, but not having the chips to land any decent starting pitcher is something I can’t buy into. You completely foreclose the possibility that Bloom was simply not willing to spend the chips to get a starting pitcher or first baseman.

 

 

I said he went after the wrong pitchers 3 times. Now 4…