This team is a total Yawn both on the field and off from top to bottom the Redsox

[mvp 78]

Also, I was on the Monster when Frank Thomas took bp. I'll never forget that. I felt like a duck and Thomas was a duck hunter.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Any pundit who said Betts's physical size was a factor would be an idiot, of course.

 

I don't think anyone is gushing these days about how great Judge and Stanton will be in 6-7 years.

 

They're already hurt every year now.

 

As for Mookie, there were a few prognosticators here, and more in the media, fixated on the six-foot high benchmark for longevity. This idiot defers to superior hand-eye coordination (which most MLBers have), Hank Aaron wrists (which most don't have) and healthy lifestyles (subject to change, of course, but better pedigree = better bets).

[kenmeister]

Not without steroids. I swear if I see one more Frank Thomas Nugenix commercial....

 

Is Frank Thomas suspected of steroid usage? That would really depress me.

[mvp 78]

Is Frank Thomas suspected of steroid usage? That would really depress me.

 

He's been pretty vocal about PED users. He said his "career was stepped on" because of them. However, he would allow Bonds and Clemens in the HOF.

 

He's always been a big boy, but a cloud of suspicion lies over that entire generation of players 86-06.

[Thunder]

He's been pretty vocal about PED users. He said his "career was stepped on" because of them. However, he would allow Bonds and Clemens in the HOF.

 

He's always been a big boy, but a cloud of suspicion lies over that entire generation of players 86-06.

 

Well, he's certainly been using the penis pills since he stopped playing. Those count as PEDs, just in a different usage of the word "performance"...

[Thunder]

On a totally unrelated note, I dug up a framed photo of the 2007 Red Sox that I forgot I had, and during a conversation that followed with a friend, I came to this conclusion: Those 5-10 years between the Steroid Era and the development of Statcast, AWS and advanced statistics were the best time to be an MLB fan (at least in my lifetime), and I don't think it will ever be that good again. I would say I'm talking from 2007 to 2015 or so.

 

 

Thoughts?

[moonslav59]

On a totally unrelated note, I dug up a framed photo of the 2007 Red Sox that I forgot I had, and during a conversation that followed with a friend, I came to this conclusion: Those 5-10 years between the Steroid Era and the development of Statcast, AWS and advanced statistics were the best time to be an MLB fan (at least in my lifetime), and I don't think it will ever be that good again. I would say I'm talking from 2007 to 2015 or so.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Nothing compares to winning rings from 2004 to 2018, but my favorite times being a baseball fan was from 1975-1978.

[Thunder]

Nothing compares to winning rings from 2004 to 2018, but my favorite times being a baseball fan was from 1975-1978.

 

Understandable. That's why I very clearly stated that was the most enjoyable fan experience of my lifetime. I have no idea what 75-78 could have been like.

 

But, I was also talking about the game in general. I think the timeframe I mentioned was the height of the game's popularity as well. It has certainly dropped off since then.

[notin]

On a totally unrelated note, I dug up a framed photo of the 2007 Red Sox that I forgot I had, and during a conversation that followed with a friend, I came to this conclusion: Those 5-10 years between the Steroid Era and the development of Statcast, AWS and advanced statistics were the best time to be an MLB fan (at least in my lifetime), and I don't think it will ever be that good again. I would say I'm talking from 2007 to 2015 or so.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Advanced stats have been around a lot longer than that. Topps was adding OPS to baseball cards back in 2004. And stats like WARP and VORP and Win Shares (the ancestors of fWAR and bWAR) have been around since before 2000.

 

And that’s before we even get into DIPS...

[Bellhorn04]

Advanced stats have been around a lot longer than that. Topps was adding OPS to baseball cards back in 2004. And stats like WARP and VORP and Win Shares (the ancestors of fWAR and bWAR) have been around since before 2000.

 

And that’s before we even get into DIPS...

 

Advanced stats have been around a while. But it's only in the last few years they have seemed to effect a radical change in the way the game is actually played.

 

The changes that may actually be turning people off the game:

-Extensive use of defensive shifts

-Offensive focus on launch angle, resulting in more homers, more strikeouts, fewer balls in play

-Short outings by starters, bullpen games

Edited December 15, 2020 by Bellhorn04

[Thunder]

Advanced stats have been around a while. But it's only in the last few years they have seemed to effect a radical change in the way the game is actually played.

 

The changes that may be actually be turning people off the game:

-Extensive use of defensive shifts

-Offensive focus on launch angle, resulting in more homers, more strikeouts, fewer balls in play

-Short outings by starters, bullpen games

 

Exactly. That's what I was going for when I posed the question. It certainly has turned me off to the game. Even in 2018, I would really only intently watch games if we were on a win streak. Otherwise, I flip back and forth between other shows, or have it on in the background while I did homework or something.

 

 

But, attending a game in person is still very enjoyable to me, largely because I can choose to ignore the stats if I want to, and because there is more to attending a game than the game itself, so you don't get bogged down in the pitching changes and other stoppages.

[jad]

Nothing compares to winning rings from 2004 to 2018, but my favorite times being a baseball fan was from 1975-1978.

 

But but ... what about THE POP-UP?????

[kenmeister]

Nothing compares to winning rings from 2004 to 2018, but my favorite times being a baseball fan was from 1975-1978.

 

2003 - 2008 for me. The 2008 team, in particular, is very under-rated.

[notin]

Advanced stats have been around a while. But it's only in the last few years they have seemed to effect a radical change in the way the game is actually played.

 

The changes that may actually be turning people off the game:

-Extensive use of defensive shifts

-Offensive focus on launch angle, resulting in more homers, more strikeouts, fewer balls in play

-Short outings by starters, bullpen games

 

This just seems like typical evolution of any sport, doesn't it? If nothing else, it just helps us remember our age.

 

Maybe (and it seems so to me) many fans just like "the game they grew up playing." But like any sport, baseball has evolved using metrics and specializations and strategies, just like it always has and the game you grew up with involved some bastardization that the previous generation was disgusted by.

 

I imagine the older fans watching MLB in the 1900's and 1910s probably got disgusted by watching 5 an rotations. "You didn't see ol' Hoss Radbourne waiting for his turn to pitch!" Or the use of specialized relief pitchers, and that whole new-fanged ERA stat. "If wins were good enough for Jack Chesbro, they're good enough for me!!"

 

Or fans in the 1920's who hated the whole webbed glove that you didn't share with the other team. Or in the 1930's, when they added foul poles and night games but removed spitballs. And I am not even going to get into the horrific fan reactions to the biggest changes in the 1940s. This was the absolute nadir of American Sports Fan Behavior. (And the 1950's gave us the slider and it's counterattack - switch-hitting.)

 

And some fans in the 1960's must have been completely aghast at the addition of the DH!! "Baseball is nine vs nine!!!" Or MLB expansion leading to 2 divisions in each league! And a whole new round of playoffs

 

And we won't even get into the 1980's and this whole specialized closer and the 1990's with dedicated set-up pitchers and dedicated LOOGY's.

 

Defensive shifts? Eh. Doesn't even register with me

 

And I will tell you now, I am just as shocked and appalled with the new "3 batter minimum", 7 inning double headers and runners on 2B in extra innings. But if I ever have a grandson who likes baseball, he will think of these as "the game he grew up with" and probably find some new rules or strategies or evolutionary tactics of the game that completely revile him. "Gotta tell you, Pops, I'm not a big fan of these new road games on the moon."

Edited December 16, 2020 by notin

[moonslav59]

But but ... what about THE POP-UP?????

 

Those times were agonizing, for sure, but as a kid and teen, it was a lot of fun watching and following the Sox.

 

Tiant, Lynn, Rice, Lee, Yaz, Evans, Petrocelli, Burleson, Fisk and on and on...

[Bellhorn04]

Defensive shifts? Eh. Doesn't even register with me

 

Defensive shifts are not so bad in themselves, but they appear to have triggered the offensive emphasis on launch angle, leading to more homers and much more K's.

 

When Theo Epstein acknowledges that analytics are hurting the quality of the product on the field, to me that says a lot.

[dgalehouse]

Defensive shifts are not so bad in themselves, but they appear to have triggered the offensive emphasis on launch angle, leading to more homers and much more K's.

 

When Theo Epstein acknowledges that analytics are hurting the quality of the product on the field, to me that says a lot.

Many, if not most , baseball fans have played the game at some level and like to think of themselves as knowledgable about the sport. The current emphasis on analytics is appealing to some , but it is a turn off to many others. As a sport and as a business, baseball needs to appeal to a large fan base. There is certainly a place for analytics, but when overdone a lot of folks start losing interest. And it absolutely is being way overdone at present.

[Thunder]

This just seems like typical evolution of any sport, doesn't it? If nothing else, it just helps us remember our age.

 

Maybe (and it seems so to me) many fans just like "the game they grew up playing." But like any sport, baseball has evolved using metrics and specializations and strategies, just like it always has and the game you grew up with involved some bastardization that the previous generation was disgusted by.

 

I imagine the older fans watching MLB in the 1900's and 1910s probably got disgusted by watching 5 an rotations. "You didn't see ol' Hoss Radbourne waiting for his turn to pitch!" Or the use of specialized relief pitchers, and that whole new-fanged ERA stat. "If wins were good enough for Jack Chesbro, they're good enough for me!!"

 

Or fans in the 1920's who hated the whole webbed glove that you didn't share with the other team. Or in the 1930's, when they added foul poles and night games but removed spitballs. And I am not even going to get into the horrific fan reactions to the biggest changes in the 1940s. This was the absolute nadir of American Sports Fan Behavior. (And the 1950's gave us the slider and it's counterattack - switch-hitting.)

 

And some fans in the 1960's must have been completely aghast at the addition of the DH!! "Baseball is nine vs nine!!!" Or MLB expansion leading to 2 divisions in each league! And a whole new round of playoffs

 

And we won't even get into the 1980's and this whole specialized closer and the 1990's with dedicated set-up pitchers and dedicated LOOGY's.

 

Defensive shifts? Eh. Doesn't even register with me

 

And I will tell you now, I am just as shocked and appalled with the new "3 batter minimum", 7 inning double headers and runners on 2B in extra innings. But if I ever have a grandson who likes baseball, he will think of these as "the game he grew up with" and probably find some new rules or strategies or evolutionary tactics of the game that completely revile him. "Gotta tell you, Pops, I'm not a big fan of these new road games on the moon."

 

Hey, if the Rays play home games on the moon, they might finally lead the league in attendance. I heard Marvin the Martian is a huge baseball fan

[mvp 78]

This just seems like typical evolution of any sport, doesn't it? If nothing else, it just helps us remember our age.

 

Maybe (and it seems so to me) many fans just like "the game they grew up playing." But like any sport, baseball has evolved using metrics and specializations and strategies, just like it always has and the game you grew up with involved some bastardization that the previous generation was disgusted by.

 

I imagine the older fans watching MLB in the 1900's and 1910s probably got disgusted by watching 5 an rotations. "You didn't see ol' Hoss Radbourne waiting for his turn to pitch!" Or the use of specialized relief pitchers, and that whole new-fanged ERA stat. "If wins were good enough for Jack Chesbro, they're good enough for me!!"

 

Or fans in the 1920's who hated the whole webbed glove that you didn't share with the other team. Or in the 1930's, when they added foul poles and night games but removed spitballs. And I am not even going to get into the horrific fan reactions to the biggest changes in the 1940s. This was the absolute nadir of American Sports Fan Behavior. (And the 1950's gave us the slider and it's counterattack - switch-hitting.)

 

And some fans in the 1960's must have been completely aghast at the addition of the DH!! "Baseball is nine vs nine!!!" Or MLB expansion leading to 2 divisions in each league! And a whole new round of playoffs

 

And we won't even get into the 1980's and this whole specialized closer and the 1990's with dedicated set-up pitchers and dedicated LOOGY's.

 

Defensive shifts? Eh. Doesn't even register with me

 

And I will tell you now, I am just as shocked and appalled with the new "3 batter minimum", 7 inning double headers and runners on 2B in extra innings. But if I ever have a grandson who likes baseball, he will think of these as "the game he grew up with" and probably find some new rules or strategies or evolutionary tactics of the game that completely revile him. "Gotta tell you, Pops, I'm not a big fan of these new road games on the moon."

 

I think length and pace of game turns people off now more than ever. Baseball is a leisurely sport and life runs at a 24/7 pace now. It just seems like an anachronism some times.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Hey, if the Rays play home games on the moon, they might finally lead the league in attendance. I heard Marvin the Martian is a huge baseball fan

 

Get that Martian off my... barren craters.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

2003 - 2008 for me. The 2008 team, in particular, is very under-rated.

 

Four ALCS Game Sevens and two rings in six years -- if you were a kid rooting for the Sox in that era, nothing will probably ever top it.

 

I know a kid who became a Red Sox TV fan at age 6, attended his first Fenway game the next summer, and was a total diehard by age 8. The years were 2016, 2017, 2018: first, first, first/best ever.

[notin]

Hey, if the Rays play home games on the moon, they might finally lead the league in attendance. I heard Marvin the Martian is a huge baseball fan

 

The Moon Rays?

[Kimmi]

Defensive shifts are not so bad in themselves, but they appear to have triggered the offensive emphasis on launch angle, leading to more homers and much more K's.

 

When Theo Epstein acknowledges that analytics are hurting the quality of the product on the field, to me that says a lot.

 

I was just reading a Fangraphs article that stated that the rise in Ks is not due to batter philosophy, but simply due to overall better pitching and to an increase in the strike zone by about 10%. Also, the increase in homeruns has a lot to do with a change in the drag of the baseball, though the article did acknowledge a change in hitter philosophy there.

 

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/two-easy-ways-to-make-baseball-a-better-game/

[Kimmi]

Many, if not most , baseball fans have played the game at some level and like to think of themselves as knowledgable about the sport. The current emphasis on analytics is appealing to some , but it is a turn off to many others. As a sport and as a business, baseball needs to appeal to a large fan base. There is certainly a place for analytics, but when overdone a lot of folks start losing interest. And it absolutely is being way overdone at present.

 

I am thinking that the average fan really has no idea of the analytics that goes on behind the scenes. If they are starting to lose interest in the game, I really don't think it's due to analytics.

[Kimmi]

I think length and pace of game turns people off now more than ever. Baseball is a leisurely sport and life runs at a 24/7 pace now. It just seems like an anachronism some times.

 

Bingo.

 

In these times of constant action video games and instant gratification brought on by the internet, most people don't have the patience nor the attention span to watch a baseball game.

[Bellhorn04]

Bingo.

 

In these times of constant action video games and instant gratification brought on by the internet, most people don't have the patience nor the attention span to watch a baseball game.

 

But golf is doing fine, prize money keeps going up all the time, so I'm not sure that totally explains it.

[Bellhorn04]

I am thinking that the average fan really has no idea of the analytics that goes on behind the scenes. If they are starting to lose interest in the game, I really don't think it's due to analytics.

 

But we know that analytics has a lot to do with starting pitchers getting yanked early and being replaced by a parade of relievers.

 

If anybody didn't know about the 'third time through the order' mantra, it was made abundantly clear to them in the last game of the World Series.

[Thunder]

I am thinking that the average fan really has no idea of the analytics that goes on behind the scenes. If they are starting to lose interest in the game, I really don't think it's due to analytics.

 

I disagree. I don't appreciate it being thrown in my face whenever I watch a game on TV (I'm looking at you, Alex Speier).

 

I also don't get involved in statistical threads on here for that reason

[Thunder]

Four ALCS Game Sevens and two rings in six years -- if you were a kid rooting for the Sox in that era, nothing will probably ever top it.

 

I know a kid who became a Red Sox TV fan at age 6, attended his first Fenway game the next summer, and was a total diehard by age 8. The years were 2016, 2017, 2018: first, first, first/best ever.

 

I turned 6 in October 2004. My experience was similar.

[Bellhorn04]

I disagree. I don't appreciate it being thrown in my face whenever I watch a game on TV (I'm looking at you, Alex Speier).

 

And it really is in your face when you watch a game now. Football is getting pretty bad with the avalanche of stats too.