2020-2021 Offseason Thread

[Bellhorn04]

The main way to achieve sustained excellence is to pay what it takes to sign and retain the excellent players. We know that from history. When you shy away from doing that , it is very difficult to field an outstanding team. The idea of achieving sustained excellence by building a farm that produces bumper crops every year is mostly a pipe dream.

 

You're trying to make it a totally black and white, one or the other thing, which it isn't.

 

Signing and retaining excellent players sounds great. But they're super-expensive so you only afford so many of them. We're paying Sale, JDM, Bogaerts and Eovaldi $20 million apiece or so. We still have one of the highest payrolls in the game, in spite of all the bellyaching. Since Henry bought the team he has never failed to spend on it.

[moonslav59]

You're trying to make it a totally black and white, one or the other thing, which it isn't.

 

Signing and retaining excellent players sounds great. But they're super-expensive so you only afford so many of them. We're paying Sale, JDM, Bogaerts and Eovaldi $20 million apiece or so. We still have one of the highest payrolls in the game, in spite of all the bellyaching. Since Henry bought the team he has never failed to spend on it.

 

Exactly, and having a consistently strong farm allows for some lower-prices players to balance out the free agents, to some extent or provide trade bait to get guys like Sale, who was paid way less than his worth for several years.

 

The Dodgers hardly ever let their farm system get weak, even as the spend big and win enough almost every year to keep their draft picks low.

 

The Yanks have seen their farm get rather weak, at times, but for the most part have kept it fairly strong.

 

The Sox had a few somewhat low points with their farm over the past 20 years, but to me, the lowest was right before Bloom got here.

 

The systems for acquiring top young talent have changed dramatically since the days of Theo hoarding comp picks and doing rather well with IFAs.

 

Ben did a fine job building it back up, while facing harder circumstances. DD used much of what Ben had built up to build the 2018 super team and win 3 division titles, as well.

 

Bloom has begun the build up, and I'm pretty happy with what he's done, so far, on that front. This year's draft may give us a big boost.

[a700hitter]

Is Cesar Tovar available?

[dgalehouse]

You're trying to make it a totally black and white, one or the other thing, which it isn't.

 

Signing and retaining excellent players sounds great. But they're super-expensive so you only afford so many of them. We're paying Sale, JDM, Bogaerts and Eovaldi $20 million apiece or so. We still have one of the highest payrolls in the game, in spite of all the bellyaching. Since Henry bought the team he has never failed to spend on it.

 

When Henry was spending , the Sox had some great teams. But after the duckboats were put away in 2018 , he seems to have had some reluctance to continue shelling out the bucks. He said it himself. Not sure why he changed , but it definitely has an adverse effect on the roster.

[Bellhorn04]

When Henry was spending , the Sox had some great teams. But after the duckboats were put away in 2018 , he seems to have had some reluctance to continue shelling out the bucks. He said it himself. Not sure why he changed , but it definitely has an adverse effect on the roster.

 

"When Henry was spending"

 

Again, our payroll is still one of the 3 highest in baseball.

 

A lot of the guys on that 2018 team became much more expensive since then. It's just the way the MLB system is.

 

And after that 2018 season he forked out 145 mill for Sale, 120 mill for Bogey, and 68 mill for Eovaldi. That's 333 million. And yet people talk like he got cheap.

[moonslav59]

"When Henry was spending"

 

Again, our payroll is still one of the 3 highest in baseball.

 

A lot of the guys on that 2018 team became much more expensive since then. It's just the way the MLB system is.

 

And after that 2018 season he forked out 145 mill for Sale, 120 mill for Bogey, and 68 mill for Eovaldi. That's 333 million. And yet people talk like he got cheap.

 

They did go "light" after 2019, but in the context of what they spend after 2018, and the fact that we have had a pattern of spend, re-set, spend re-set, I'm not seeing a major shift in philosophy.

 

Like you said, we are still a top spending team, so any talk of Henry going cheap is just that: talk.

 

We spent a bit this year but had to spread it out due to having so many holes to fill, at once.

 

I'm confident we will spend very large, next winter.

[Kimmi]

The main way to achieve sustained excellence is to pay what it takes to sign and retain the excellent players. We know that from history. When you shy away from doing that , it is very difficult to field an outstanding team. The idea of achieving sustained excellence by building a farm that produces bumper crops every year is mostly a pipe dream.

 

O M G

 

I'm speechless.

[notin]

The main way to achieve sustained excellence is to pay what it takes to sign and retain the excellent players. We know that from history. When you shy away from doing that , it is very difficult to field an outstanding team. The idea of achieving sustained excellence by building a farm that produces bumper crops every year is mostly a pipe dream.

 

The Braves did it and the Dodgers are doing it...

[dgalehouse]

If you throw enough jabronis against the wall ; one or two may stick. But you will have a mess of splattered jabronis on the floor . Not the best way to excite the Fenway Faithful.

[notin]

If you throw enough jabronis against the wall ; one or two may stick. But you will have a mess of splattered jabronis on the floor . Not the best way to excite the Fenway Faithful.

 

The Braves won the NL East 14 times in a 15 year stretch because of their farm. Even if the players weren’t all stars, just by being capable minimum wage players they enabled the team to afford Maddox/Glavine/Smoltz etc...

[notin]

It’s also easy to say “the team just needs to spend.” The Sox have signed one free agent who is more expensive than Enrique Hernandez in three years (Eovaldi) and yet they still have one of the highest payrolls in the league. Cot’s has them at 7th highest, which is the first time not in the top three for a while. The team is still spending; the problem is they are spending their cash on old debts. But that’s what happens when you hand out big contracts like candy corn on Halloween...

[dgalehouse]

The Braves won the NL East 14 times in a 15 year stretch because of their farm. Even if the players weren’t all stars, just by being capable minimum wage players they enabled the team to afford Maddox/Glavine/Smoltz etc...

 

Most people would give most of the credit for the Brave's run to Maddox , Glavine and Smoltz . Leave it to you to credit the supporting cast.

[moonslav59]

If you throw enough jabronis against the wall ; one or two may stick. But you will have a mess of splattered jabronis on the floor . Not the best way to excite the Fenway Faithful.

 

Newsflash: enough jabronis stuck for many years, and it was damn exciting... and will be again, soon.

 

Sure, we left a few on the floor: the Michael Bowdens, Lars Andersons, Ranaudos & Kalishes, Middlebrooks & Cecchinis and lots more, but the formula worked for years.

 

Time to reboot and get the next one.

[dgalehouse]

Newsflash: enough jabronis stuck for many years, and it was damn exciting... and will be again, soon.

 

Sure, we left a few on the floor: the Michael Bowdens, Lars Andersons, Ranaudos & Kalishes, Middlebrooks & Cecchinis and lots more, but the formula worked for years.

 

Time to reboot and get the next one.

 

I'm afraid it will be a long wait for the next one if we can't acquire and retain top talent.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm afraid it will be a long wait for the next one if we can't acquire and retain top talent.

 

We could also develop it, and a blend of both is what most posters are advocating for longterm contention. I also think almost all would like to retain homegrown talent.

 

Regarding spending -- and those who are confident that Henry and Bloom will soon or eventually invest in new stars -- unless someone knows these two gents personally, it's all speculation until it happens again. So those who are sure have to also appreciate those who are dubious.

[notin]

Most people would give most of the credit for the Brave's run to Maddox , Glavine and Smoltz . Leave it to you to credit the supporting cast.

 

Glavine was farm. Smoltz was farm via trade. Maddux was the only one they brought in by spending (after they won two pennants).

 

Also from the farm - Chipper, Andruw, Javy Lopez, Millwood, Wohlers, Lemke, and numerous others.

[jad]

The Beni and JBJ wing of the OF trifecta were just marketing. They are fine players, but I'd rather keep Xander and Devers around. Both of them had waning production. Aside from winxdancexrepeat, those two guys are very replaceable.

 

Well yes. I'd like to keep Devers and Xander. BECAUSE I KNOW THEM. That's the same reason I want to see JBJ, Betts and Beni. Of course you can replace guys statistically. But you can't expect fans to show the same sort of loyalty they've shown to players they know to a 'bunch of guys' they've never heard of. This is not a question of 'what makes the best team at the lowest cost'; it's a question of 'what do the fans care about'? If I only recognize one or two guys on the team, I don't give a crap if they lose 162 games. I'll just follow teams with players I'm familiar with.

[moonslav59]

I'm afraid it will be a long wait for the next one if we can't acquire and retain top talent.

 

We're a top 3 spending team and will likely remain in that vicinity for years to come.

 

We've let plenty a star go- mostly at the right time (Pedro, Damon, Manny, AGon, Beckett...).

 

The Betts loss is different, but I don't think it's a sign of a major change in our strategy and championship building planning.

 

Times have changed. It's not so easy to just restock the farm by outspending everyone. Maybe, we take longer to win the next one than anyone here would like to see, but we will be right at or near the top in the next year or two. This year will be a step in the right direction, and the draft should help build our farm to the point of respectability. (Maybe a summer sell off might help, too.)

[moonslav59]

Well yes. I'd like to keep Devers and Xander. BECAUSE I KNOW THEM. That's the same reason I want to see JBJ, Betts and Beni. Of course you can replace guys statistically. But you can't expect fans to show the same sort of loyalty they've shown to players they know to a 'bunch of guys' they've never heard of. This is not a question of 'what makes the best team at the lowest cost'; it's a question of 'what do the fans care about'? If I only recognize one or two guys on the team, I don't give a crap if they lose 162 games. I'll just follow teams with players I'm familiar with.

 

The 2004, 2007, 2013 and 2018 teams had a lot of different stars on them. When you win, it's fun.

 

Those great teams of the 70's were fun to watch, and we traded almost everyone away. We got worse and worse, and that sucked.

[jad]

None of those championship teams began by ridding the roster of almost all the starters. Each one was recognizable as a variant of the team of the previous years. That is not true of this one.

 

As for fun, I don't remember that following the RS in the last decade or so was any more fun than following them in the 60s or 70s or 80s or whatever. Winning championships is nice. But it's not why I follow sports, nor why I follow particular teams. (I'm not saying anything about what others do or should do.)

[moonslav59]

None of those championship teams began by ridding the roster of almost all the starters. Each one was recognizable as a variant of the team of the previous years. That is not true of this one.

 

As for fun, I don't remember that following the RS in the last decade or so was any more fun than following them in the 60s or 70s or 80s or whatever. Winning championships is nice. But it's not why I follow sports, nor why I follow particular teams. (I'm not saying anything about what others do or should do.)

 

We still have Bogey, Devers, JD, Vaz, Sale, ERod, Eovaldi and Barnes from the 2018 team.

 

The 2013 team had just went through one of this team's biggest purges in the Dodger dump. An even bigger dump happened after 2013, when we purged the whole starting rotation and watched as every single starter was replaced by 2018.

 

Yes, some guys retired- like Papi, but others were let go to free agency or traded.

Most PAs in 2013:

724 Pedey

636 Ellsbury

600 Ortiz

578 Napoli

536 Nava

532 Vic

401 S Drew

470 Salty

374 Middy

366 Gomes

243 Carp

234 Iggy

116 Ross

107 JBJ

 

By 2015, only 4 of those top 14 players remained. (The pitching saw an even bigger turnover.) Note,I'm counting JBJ as a member of the 2013 team. Some may discount his roleo n that team.

 

By 2017, only Pedey and JBJ were left over.

 

We won in 2018 with best record in Sox history.

 

[notin]

None of those championship teams began by ridding the roster of almost all the starters. Each one was recognizable as a variant of the team of the previous years. That is not true of this one.

 

As for fun, I don't remember that following the RS in the last decade or so was any more fun than following them in the 60s or 70s or 80s or whatever. Winning championships is nice. But it's not why I follow sports, nor why I follow particular teams. (I'm not saying anything about what others do or should do.)

 

The 2013 team didn't?

[moonslav59]

2004 and 2007 Sox Top Players

 

2004

by PAs

Damon

Ortiz

Manny

Bellhorn

Millar

VTek

Mueller

Kapler

Reese/OCab

 

2007

Ortiz

Lowell

Lugo

Youk

Crisp

Pedey

Manny

JD Drew

VTek

 

2010 PAs

Scutaro

Beltre

Ortiz

JD Drew

VMart

Youk

BHall

DMac

Pedey/Lowell/Lowrie

 

2013 PAs

Pedey

Ellsbury

Ortiz

Napoli

Nava

Vic

SDrew

Salty

Middy

Gomes/Carp/Iggy

 

2016PAs

Betts

Bogey

Pedey

JBJ

Ortiz

HRam

Shaw

Holt/Young

Leon/Vaz

 

2018 PA (2 years from 2016)

Beni

JD

Betts

Bogey

JBJ

Nunez

Devers

Moreland

Holt

Leon/Vaz/Swihart

 

2020 PAs

Devers

JD

Bogey

Verdugo

JBJ

Vaz/Plawecki

Chavis/Dalbec

Pillar

 

2004 IP

Schill

Pedro

Wake

Lowe

Arroyo

Foulke

Timlin

Enbree

Mendoza

Williamson/Leskanic/DiNardo

 

2007 IP

Dice-K

Beckett

Wake

Schill

Tavarez

Okajima

Lester

Papelbon

Timlin

Snyder

 

2010 IP

Lackey

Lester

Buch

Dice-K

Wake

Beckett

Bard

Papelbon

Atchison

Okajima/Delcarme/RRamirez

 

2013 IP

Lester

Lackey

Dempster

Doubront

Buch

Uehara

Tazawa

Peavy

Breslow

Workman/Aceves/Miller/Webster

 

2016 IP

Price

Porcello

Wright

Buch

ERod

Pom

Barnes

Ross

Kimbrel

Hembree

 

2018 IP (2 yrs from 2016)

Porcello

Price

Sale

ERod

Johnson

Velazquez

Pom

Kelly

Kimbrel

Barnes/Hembree/Workman

Eovaldi/Wright

 

2020 IP (Sale & ERod out all year)

Perez

Eovaldi

Weber

Valdez

Godley

Brewer

Brasier

Barnes

 

[moonslav59]

The 2013 team didn't?

 

The bigger purge was during 2014, and it continued afterwards.

 

The ring team from 2018 was very different from 2015 and almost totally different from 2013.

 

The Sox have seen some massive overhauls and recycling of stars.

 

[notin]

The bigger purge was during 2014, and it continued afterwards.

 

The ring team from 2018 was very different from 2015 and almost totally different from 2013.

 

The Sox have seen some massive overhauls and recycling of stars.

 

 

Starting in August, the 2012 team shed Crawford, AGon, Beckett, Mike Aviles, Nick Punto, Cody Ross, and Aaron Cook, plus the three most frequently used bench players (Ciriaco, Sweeney, Podsednik), among others. That's 44% of the lineup, 40% of the rotation and a full bench. That's a really big turnover. They moved the starting 1B, SS, LF, RF, and 2 of the most frequently used SP's

 

This team heading into next season has added 1 new SP, 2 new outfielders, and a 2B, and somehow people are screaming this is too much of an overhaul?

[notin]

The bigger purge was during 2014, and it continued afterwards.

 

The ring team from 2018 was very different from 2015 and almost totally different from 2013.

 

The Sox have seen some massive overhauls and recycling of stars.

 

 

If you look at most teams 5 years apart, you see some massive changes. Maybe a few players, usually those who signed long term deals, stick around. That is another reason why the farm system is also important...

[Bellhorn04]

I'm afraid it will be a long wait for the next one if we can't acquire and retain top talent.

 

Do you expect the team to win it all every 3 years now?

 

Henry's won 4 of them. During the same period the Yankees and Dodgers have each won one.

 

But yeah, Henry must not know what he's doing!

[notin]

Do you expect the team to win it all every 3 years now?

 

Henry's won 4 of them. During the same period the Yankees and Dodgers have each won one.

 

But yeah, Henry must not know what he's doing!

 

 

Not to mention, the notion that Henry isn’t spending and isn’t retaining top talent is a fallacy. The Sox have extended and retained Sale and Bogaerts, and did so while they still had major commitments to Price and Martinez. And even after all the payroll shedding, they still have one of the highest payrolls in MLB. Is the expectation that they bring in a brand new $250 mill contract every season? Otherwise they’re no different than the Pirates?

[Bellhorn04]

Not to mention, the notion that Henry isn’t spending and isn’t retaining top talent is a fallacy.

 

I'll go a step further. The notion that Henry isn’t spending and isn’t retaining top talent is dumb and whiny.

[notin]

I'll go a step further. The notion that Henry isn’t spending and isn’t retaining top talent is dumb and whiny.

 

Really the complaint is that he is not retaining ALL the top talent. But since Betts got away, we can ignore the others?

 

Your theory that Betts simply priced him out of the Sox price range during negotiations may have merit, but I have always maintained the Sox' prior spending also made it impossible to retain him. The reality is both were likely very significant factors...