A Realistic View at 2020: Part II

[Bellhorn04]

Yup. Agree totally. (And if we are EXTREMELY lucky, after two or three crappy seasons, the RS will be back, or nearly back, to where they were before J. Henry's bank account became more important than the quality of the team.)

 

John Henry has never been a penny-pincher with this team IMHO, and I don't think he has suddenly turned into one.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Bellhorn04

[mvp 78]

Verdugo was definitely a win for hang’em Chaim.

 

Now can he turn Moreland, Martinez, Perez and others into wins as well.

 

Jury out on the Hembree/workman trade.

 

Workman was done after this year. It's really Hembree for multiple years of control for former highly regarded starting pitching prospect Nick Pivetta and lottery ticket Seabold.

 

Seems like a fine trade for the Sox.

[Maxbialystock]

Workman was done after this year. It's really Hembree for multiple years of control for former highly regarded starting pitching prospect Nick Pivetta and lottery ticket Seabold.

 

Seems like a fine trade for the Sox.

 

Thanks. I questioned that trade because I had no knowledge of what the Sox were getting.

[mvp 78]

https://twitter.com/redsoxstats/status/1299030888546791425

 

Xander is getting hammered by bad k zone calls this year. He's getting more incorrect calls outside the zone and fewer inside the zone. The gif on the ensuing tweet is just sad.

[Kimmi]

And yet, spending unwisely -- as well as being unwise in their approach to Mookie from his very first year of arbitration -- is what got us here in 2020, when the not-a-mandate goal of resetting prevented Boston from fielding an MLB caliber club. My point about Betts and winning is that you have to pay for quality results. Everyone talks about building around a core, and what better place to start than a future Hall of Famer about to enter his prime. This is exactly what LA, a big market club, chose to do. Good luck finding a better investment, especially a homegrown face of the franchise: drafted, signed and developed in your own system.

 

Obviously, there will be a lot more options for Henry to spend his Mookie savings on. But it's unpredictable just what quality will be available and when. Three guys like Martin Perez don't equal one Max Scherzer (one David Price didn't, either). I just think that after a few losing seasons, despite deliberate, meticulous rebuilding, the Sox will still wind up signing a star free agent for something close to what it would've taken to keep Betts in the first place. And he won't be as good. There have just been too many impulsive Crawford-Rusney-Lackey-Panda point-of-purchase buys at the check-out line.

 

It is never a good idea to take a player into arbitration. It's not just the Red Sox with Mookie, it's any team with any player. That's how arbitration hearings go. Theo had that long record of not having to go to arbitration with any players, and people kind of rolled their eyes whenever it was mentioned, but there was good reason behind Theo's diligence to that. In short, I agree with you about the arbitration process possibly hurting the team's relationship with Mookie.

 

We are going to have to sign free agents. There is no way around that. If Henry maintains his patience and allows Bloom to do his job, Bloom should be able to sign quality players. I'm not talking about dumpster diving. I'm just not talking about Mookie Betts all star type players. There are a lot of good quality players in between, for a fraction of the cost.

 

As far as some of those impulsive contracts you speak of, we have Lucchino to thank for that. He is King of the Shiny New Toy.

[Kimmi]

That's Darwin, who is my best buddy ... except for the fact that, of course, he doesn't give a crap about me.

 

Ha, sounds very cat like.

 

Dogs are awesome. End of story.

[moonslav59]

Workman was done after this year. It's really Hembree for multiple years of control for former highly regarded starting pitching prospect Nick Pivetta and lottery ticket Seabold.

 

Seems like a fine trade for the Sox.

 

That's how I see it.

 

Also, Workman's peripherals showed he has not been as good as he appears to have been.

[notin]

That's how I see it.

 

Also, Workman's peripherals showed he has not been as good as he appears to have been.

 

Agreed.

 

Six weeks f Workman was not going to bring a game-changing deal with taking a significant risk...

[oldtimer]

It is never a good idea to take a player into arbitration. It's not just the Red Sox with Mookie, it's any team with any player. That's how arbitration hearings go. Theo had that long record of not having to go to arbitration with any players, and people kind of rolled their eyes whenever it was mentioned, but there was good reason behind Theo's diligence to that. In short, I agree with you about the arbitration process possibly hurting the team's relationship with Mookie.

 

We are going to have to sign free agents. There is no way around that. If Henry maintains his patience and allows Bloom to do his job, Bloom should be able to sign quality players. I'm not talking about dumpster diving. I'm just not talking about Mookie Betts all star type players. There are a lot of good quality players in between, for a fraction of the cost.

 

As far as some of those impulsive contracts you speak of, we have Lucchino to thank for that. He is King of the Shiny New Toy.

 

I still think the money available needs to be apportioned so that the team is sound at every position. Overpaying a few stars and having too little left to be sound at other positions is fools gold. So keep the core, if they remain close to the planned budget, develop and bring up a few from the minors yearly to keep the cost reasonable. Go to FA to fill in the gaps and also trade away assets that don't meet the plan. The name of the game is being disciplined. No sentimental signings of guys to long term contracts. Once in a while, go over budget, but only if it raises the team to the WS level. Clearly you advocate something similar.

 

Part of the plan is to strengthen our minor league program so that it is possible to bring enough up that can contribute. That is hard to do if the team is competitive year to year. So having a GM and front office that is together is important. No Lucchino like deals that set the plan aside. I believe that Bloom and Henry are a quality pair in that regard unless proven otherwise. Also, we need to put a manager and coach team together that provides good results. To me, having many guys on the roster under-performing at one time is also a sign of bad management of coaching. Another sign is the lack of ability to develop pitching in the minors.

 

Lots of work to get done as the previous organization was run to win now and the heck with tomorrow. The problem is tomorrow comes and it is here now.

[sundvl20]

gotta get Moreland more ab's. he could be chasing a triple crown. looking for anything to make me want to watch this mess

[Hitch]

I still think the money available needs to be apportioned so that the team is sound at every position. Overpaying a few stars and having too little left to be sound at other positions is fools gold. So keep the core, if they remain close to the planned budget, develop and bring up a few from the minors yearly to keep the cost reasonable. Go to FA to fill in the gaps and also trade away assets that don't meet the plan. The name of the game is being disciplined. No sentimental signings of guys to long term contracts. Once in a while, go over budget, but only if it raises the team to the WS level. Clearly you advocate something similar.

 

Part of the plan is to strengthen our minor league program so that it is possible to bring enough up that can contribute. That is hard to do if the team is competitive year to year. So having a GM and front office that is together is important. No Lucchino like deals that set the plan aside. I believe that Bloom and Henry are a quality pair in that regard unless proven otherwise. Also, we need to put a manager and coach team together that provides good results. To me, having many guys on the roster under-performing at one time is also a sign of bad management of coaching. Another sign is the lack of ability to develop pitching in the minors.

 

Lots of work to get done as the previous organization was run to win now and the heck with tomorrow. The problem is tomorrow comes and it is here now.

 

Fantastic post. Ahh, to have more posters like you and Kimmi on this board.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I still think the money available needs to be apportioned so that the team is sound at every position. Overpaying a few stars and having too little left to be sound at other positions is fools gold. So keep the core, if they remain close to the planned budget, develop and bring up a few from the minors yearly to keep the cost reasonable. Go to FA to fill in the gaps and also trade away assets that don't meet the plan. The name of the game is being disciplined. No sentimental signings of guys to long term contracts. Once in a while, go over budget, but only if it raises the team to the WS level. Clearly you advocate something similar.

 

Part of the plan is to strengthen our minor league program so that it is possible to bring enough up that can contribute. That is hard to do if the team is competitive year to year. So having a GM and front office that is together is important. No Lucchino like deals that set the plan aside. I believe that Bloom and Henry are a quality pair in that regard unless proven otherwise. Also, we need to put a manager and coach team together that provides good results. To me, having many guys on the roster under-performing at one time is also a sign of bad management of coaching. Another sign is the lack of ability to develop pitching in the minors.

 

Lots of work to get done as the previous organization was run to win now and the heck with tomorrow. The problem is tomorrow comes and it is here now.

 

Ownership may have the patience to see this through, but will a spoiled fandom? It's a balancing act, because it's a business. Perhaps the hope is that people with cabin fever will still flock to Fenway when it's finally safe again, no matter how bad the team is during the rebuild.

 

In the meantime, just be honest with us -- we can take it. For example, don't contrive a NESN report card on the first half of the 2020 season that gives the starting staff a D and the bullpen a C- ... (I give the reporter a big fat F for those evaluations).

[Kimmi]

Agreed.

 

Six weeks f Workman was not going to bring a game-changing deal with taking a significant risk...

 

Workman has been extremely shaky since being traded to the Phillies. He has successfully saved 2 out of the 3 games he appeared in, but neither save was very clean. One save came on a bang bang play at the plate.

[Kimmi]

I still think the money available needs to be apportioned so that the team is sound at every position. Overpaying a few stars and having too little left to be sound at other positions is fools gold. So keep the core, if they remain close to the planned budget, develop and bring up a few from the minors yearly to keep the cost reasonable. Go to FA to fill in the gaps and also trade away assets that don't meet the plan. The name of the game is being disciplined. No sentimental signings of guys to long term contracts. Once in a while, go over budget, but only if it raises the team to the WS level. Clearly you advocate something similar.

 

Part of the plan is to strengthen our minor league program so that it is possible to bring enough up that can contribute. That is hard to do if the team is competitive year to year. So having a GM and front office that is together is important. No Lucchino like deals that set the plan aside. I believe that Bloom and Henry are a quality pair in that regard unless proven otherwise. Also, we need to put a manager and coach team together that provides good results. To me, having many guys on the roster under-performing at one time is also a sign of bad management of coaching. Another sign is the lack of ability to develop pitching in the minors.

 

Lots of work to get done as the previous organization was run to win now and the heck with tomorrow. The problem is tomorrow comes and it is here now.

 

100% Oldtimer. Well said.

 

I am thankful for the 2018 World Series and would not trade it to have our farm system back, but I have never been a fan of that approach to building a winning team. Bloom seems to be the right guy to get us back on track for long term sustainability. Obviously, the result is still out on that.

 

Large contracts should be a very rare exception (and by large contracts, I mean 6-7 years, not 10+ years), not the norm.

[Kimmi]

Fantastic post. Ahh, to have more posters like you and Kimmi on this board.

 

You need to post more often Hitch.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

100% Oldtimer. Well said.

 

I am thankful for the 2018 World Series and would not trade it to have our farm system back, but I have never been a fan of that approach to building a winning team. Bloom seems to be the right guy to get us back on track for long term sustainability. Obviously, the result is still out on that.

 

Large contracts should be a very rare exception (and by large contracts, I mean 6-7 years, not 10+ years), not the norm.

 

The problem nowadays is that all the really good players demand -- and get -- 10-year deals. Such demands may have to change with pandemic economics and a new CBA...

[Bellhorn04]

The problem nowadays is that all the really good players demand -- and get -- 10-year deals. Such demands may have to change with pandemic economics and a new CBA...

 

Believe it when you see it. Mookie got a 12 year deal IN THE PANDEMIC. And Cole's deal OBLITERATED previous deals for pitchers.

[notin]

Believe it when you see it. Mookie got a 12 year deal IN THE PANDEMIC. And Cole's deal OBLITERATED previous deals for pitchers.

 

Cole's deal was 1) prior to the pandemic. and 2) from the Yankees, who play by different financial rules than the rest of MLB...

[Bellhorn04]

Cole's deal was 1) prior to the pandemic. and 2) from the Yankees, who play by different financial rules than the rest of MLB...

 

It was reported that Cole got 8 year offers at the same rate from 2 other teams, which pushed the Yankees to 9 years. Those 8 year deals would also have smashed the previous record. So I think the point stands.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Believe it when you see it. Mookie got a 12 year deal IN THE PANDEMIC. And Cole's deal OBLITERATED previous deals for pitchers.

 

I'm with you (I said "may" have to change). No one argues about the virtues of spreading the wealth to build a contender, but some of us see that as idealistic.

[notin]

It was reported that Cole got 8 year offers at the same rate from 2 other teams, which pushed the Yankees to 9 years. Those 8 year deals would also have smashed the previous record. So I think the point stands.

 

Except for the pre-pandemic part, as Cole signed his deal on December 11, 2019...

[notin]

I'm with you (I said "may" have to change). No one argues about the virtues of spreading the wealth to build a contender, but some of us see that as idealistic.

 

Certain teams will contiue to spend, while others will find it more dfficult.

 

The biggest change might be an increase in the number of "small market" teams, as right now teams with lesser TV deals will now fall into that category. Or teams who think next season will also be fan-free as well might adopt a small market mentality, even if only temporary..

[mvp 78]

Cole's deal was 1) prior to the pandemic. and 2) from the Yankees, who play by different financial rules than the rest of MLB...

 

Which are?

[notin]

Which are?

 

Ridiculous spending practices.

 

Ok they’re not exactly alone there. But they have habitually outspent the bulk of MLB. The Dodgers and Red Sox are equally generous...

[illinoisredsox]

Except for the pre-pandemic part, as Cole signed his deal on December 11, 2019...

 

Cole's signing was pre-pandemic. Sure, in 20-20 hindsight, yeah, but literally no one was calling it a pandemic in December and anyone who says they did is lying. WHO didn't call it that until March.

[Kimmi]

The problem nowadays is that all the really good players demand -- and get -- 10-year deals. Such demands may have to change with pandemic economics and a new CBA...

 

Yes, I realize that there's almost always a team that is willing to pay an arm and a leg for those top free agents. I just prefer it not be the Sox.

[Kimmi]

Believe it when you see it. Mookie got a 12 year deal IN THE PANDEMIC. And Cole's deal OBLITERATED previous deals for pitchers.

 

I am still in shock.

[Bellhorn04]

Cole's signing was pre-pandemic. Sure, in 20-20 hindsight, yeah, but literally no one was calling it a pandemic in December and anyone who says they did is lying. WHO didn't call it that until March.

 

That was notin's point, actually. I'm the one who included Cole's deal as a sign of where things are headed.

[notin]

I am still in shock.

 

 

There, there...

[Kimmi]

There, there...

 

Good for the Dodgers for going hard after Mookie, but at the same time, I really think they needlessly cost themselves a lot of money.

 

Was any other team going to offer close to that in free agency this offseason? Would Mookie have accepted a lesser deal given the current circumstances? I'm not talking about a low ball deal, but certainly a 10 year deal rather than 12 years.

 

We'll never know, but I'm thinking 'No' and 'Yes'.