Mookie Betts and David Price have been traded to Dodgers

[cp176]

Advance ticket sales must be in the toilet. They were languishing before the trade, but they have probably dried up since the announcement.

 

The really messed up thing from a fan relation standpoint is that they raised ticket prices for a year that they have decided they will not try to compete. The Left Hand doesn’t know what the Right Hand is doing in the organization right now. They are usually much better at season ticket holder relations.

 

Did they by any chance send out a flyer suggesting that even though ticket prices are going up, it's all good because in reality people spending the money to attend games today will have a much brighter future to look forward to? Doesn't sound like the type of speculative investment any sound billionaire would make. lol

[cp176]

Cry me a river, man.

 

(Just saying that because it's kind of fun stirring you up.)

 

You miserable ... (I'm actually kind of glad that you do this. You would fit quite nicely down here with the rest of my knucleheaded friends.)

[cp176]

Come on, man. If you follow a player like that on the field, you are no longer a true fan (or at least a true fan as measured by posters on sports boards), whose primary concerns are fantasy leagues, diwx97jacWAR, and competitive GM-ing

 

There is truth to this and it breaks my heart. I am definitely losing interest in a game that I grew up loving because of the players on the field. The more I hear about how times are changing and you either need to go along with the changes or get out of the madness I tend to lean more toward doing the latter. Also, as ticket prices go up, and the guy who lives in the rural town that I live in cannot afford to take his family to a game in Boston, we can keep on comforting him by saying that it is ok - bright future right on the horizon. The truth of the matter is for me that if this trade goes through, I would have much preferred to have one more year to watch Betts in Boston as opposed to trading him for what we got not to mention the fact that Price can still pitch.

[Jack Flap]

I haven't been around for all 45 pages of this discussion, but to sum up my thoughts...

 

[Jack Flap]

The Dodgers could take Graterol and give us Downs, Gonsolin, Gray, Stripling, Gray or Cartaya.

 

If the Dodgers were willing to give up any of these guys, the deal probably would have been done a while ago, and without the need for the Twins' involvement. I doubt Graterol (now believed to be damaged goods) going to LA instead of Boston would change that equation much.

 

IMO (and Bloom seems to agree based on how all of this has proceeded) we need to get a viable starting pitcher here in addition to Verdugo, and if Graterol isn't going to be one, that changes the entire complexion of the deal. Unless the Twins are willing to chip in another significant player or Friedman (who is looking like a genius through all of this) backs off his refusal to give up any prospects from his deep farm system, it feels like we're back at an impasse.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Jack Flap

[Slasher9]

But I’m rooting for the trade to be nixed. I don’t want the Sox to offload Price at all. I’m hoping for a catastrophic collapse to where he’s entirely worthless and then Betts goes to LA as a FA after playing out a lost 2020 season in Boston

 

awesome thing to post on a Red Sox forum. thanks for stopping by and taking the time to post this for us to read.

[jacksonianmarch]

If the Dodgers were willing to give up any of these guys, the deal probably would have been done a while ago, and without the need for the Twins' involvement. I doubt Graterol (now believed to be damaged goods) going to LA instead of Boston would change that equation much.

 

IMO (and Bloom seems to agree based on how all of this has proceeded) we need to get a viable starting pitcher here in addition to Verdugo, and if Graterol isn't going to be one, that changes the entire complexion of the deal. Unless the Twins are willing to chip in another significant player or Friedman (who is looking like a genius through all of this) backs off his refusal to give up any prospects from his deep farm system, it feels like we're back at an impasse.

 

Outside of health, there was ZERO likelihood that Graterol was headed towards being a starter anyway. His build, his delivery, his stuff all scream bullpen. The idea that he was planning to take a clear pen guy and stretch him out is pretty dumb and maybe they are seeing that now and hanging onto some minor health issue to hold up the deal. If I was Bloom and I needed to fake 2020 being relevant, I'd have taken Maeda myself and cut the Twins out of it entirely. Maeda is an upgrade on Price and Verdugo is a good OFer, enough to not leave a hole in the lineup. That at least gives you a moderate upgrade in the rotation and a moderate downgrade in the lineup, with the lineup being the one place you can downgrade and still be elite.

[mvp 78]

Kenta Kobashi > Kenta Kobayasi > Kenta Maeda

[moonslav59]

Outside of health, there was ZERO likelihood that Graterol was headed towards being a starter anyway. His build, his delivery, his stuff all scream bullpen. The idea that he was planning to take a clear pen guy and stretch him out is pretty dumb and maybe they are seeing that now and hanging onto some minor health issue to hold up the deal. If I was Bloom and I needed to fake 2020 being relevant, I'd have taken Maeda myself and cut the Twins out of it entirely. Maeda is an upgrade on Price and Verdugo is a good OFer, enough to not leave a hole in the lineup. That at least gives you a moderate upgrade in the rotation and a moderate downgrade in the lineup, with the lineup being the one place you can downgrade and still be elite.

 

Maybe you want to check the facts before posting.

 

Graterol started 11 games in 2019. Yes, way back in 2019! In 2018, he made 18 appearances- ALL STARTS! (102 IP or 5 1/3 IP per start)

 

Before that, 11 of his 14 appearances were starts.

 

All levels: 41 starts and 20 relief appearances.

 

It's totally understandable to think he might have been our 5th starter, if healthy.

[notin]

Outside of health, there was ZERO likelihood that Graterol was headed towards being a starter anyway. His build, his delivery, his stuff all scream bullpen. The idea that he was planning to take a clear pen guy and stretch him out is pretty dumb and maybe they are seeing that now and hanging onto some minor health issue to hold up the deal. If I was Bloom and I needed to fake 2020 being relevant, I'd have taken Maeda myself and cut the Twins out of it entirely. Maeda is an upgrade on Price and Verdugo is a good OFer, enough to not leave a hole in the lineup. That at least gives you a moderate upgrade in the rotation and a moderate downgrade in the lineup, with the lineup being the one place you can downgrade and still be elite.

 

Exactly how many times have you seen Graterol pitch?

[jacksonianmarch]

I saw him pitch a few times on extra innings. I also saw him throw an inning vs the Yanks in the ALDS. Phenomenal power. But he’s 6’1 and heavy. He’s a power sinker guy. Slider is good enough to offer a change of speed, but not a big breaker. Didn’t see a single change up. His style is essentially “Here is my sinker, good luck”. That works as a reliever. That doesn’t work as a starter. And his secondary stuff isn’t good enough for him to be a mix guy. Add to that his arm issues and you’ve got a guy who is destined to close

[mvp 78]

https://www.mlb.com/twins/news/twins-call-up-prospect-brusdar-graterol

 

Though Graterol has been a starter throughout his Minor League career and posted a 5-0 record with a 1.89 ERA for Double-A Pensacola to begin the year, the Twins moved him into a relief role following his recovery from a right shoulder impingement in August. They fast-tracked him to Triple-A Rochester to see if he could be a factor for the Twins in September and brought him up after four appearances for the Red Wings.

 

So the Twins only transitioned him to relieving because of the injury and the stretch run? That something a lot of teams due to younger pitchers.

[notin]

I saw him pitch a few times on extra innings. I also saw him throw an inning vs the Yanks in the ALDS. Phenomenal power. But he’s 6’1 and heavy. He’s a power sinker guy. Slider is good enough to offer a change of speed, but not a big breaker. Didn’t see a single change up. His style is essentially “Here is my sinker, good luck”. That works as a reliever. That doesn’t work as a starter. And his secondary stuff isn’t good enough for him to be a mix guy. Add to that his arm issues and you’ve got a guy who is destined to close

 

He only had 9 innings in the majors and only faced 3 batters in the ALDS (striking out 2). Even if you saw his entire season's game log, it seems a bit premature to disqualify him from a career in the rotation.

 

If being heavy disqualifies a pitcher from the rotation, are you saying Fernando Valenzuela ain't gonna cut it?

[mvp 78]

He only had 9 innings in the majors and only faced 3 batters in the ALDS (striking out 2). Even if you saw his entire season's game log, it seems a bit premature to disqualify him from a career in the rotation.

 

If being heavy disqualifies a pitcher from the rotation, are you saying Fernando Valenzuela ain't gonna cut it?

 

CC, Wells, Bartolo, Zambrano...

[Elktonnick]

CC, Wells, Bartolo, Zambrano...

 

I don't think Bartolo Colon has officially retired yet. If some team signs him he could be pitching until he is 50.

[Slasher9]

I saw him pitch a few times on extra innings. I also saw him throw an inning vs the Yanks in the ALDS. Phenomenal power. But he’s 6’1 and heavy. He’s a power sinker guy. Slider is good enough to offer a change of speed, but not a big breaker. Didn’t see a single change up. His style is essentially “Here is my sinker, good luck”. That works as a reliever. That doesn’t work as a starter. And his secondary stuff isn’t good enough for him to be a mix guy. Add to that his arm issues and you’ve got a guy who is destined to close

 

weird. a starting pitcher was used for an inning of relief in the postseason?

oh, wait...your team hasn't had a parade in so long that you are not familiar with how modern day postseason pitching is utilized.

FYI - it's no longer 8 innings of SP + 1 inning from mariano.

[jacksonianmarch]

They’re more the exception than the rule. I’m also looking at the stuff. Overpowering fastball. Middling slider. No clue on his change. That type of overwhelming power works better in short stints.

[jacksonianmarch]

weird. a starting pitcher was used for an inning of relief in the postseason?

oh, wait...your team hasn't had a parade in so long that you are not familiar with how modern day postseason pitching is utilized.

FYI - it's no longer 8 innings of SP + 1 inning from mariano.

 

Chapman is pretty damn good when the hitter doesn’t know the slider is coming

[mvp 78]

They’re more the exception than the rule. I’m also looking at the stuff. Overpowering fastball. Middling slider. No clue on his change. That type of overwhelming power works better in short stints.

 

Isn't he like only 21? He has time to develop those other pitches.

[jung]

Maybe its Graterol's weight on that frame as a FB pitcher that is a bit of a warning sign. He is only 6'1" and he was listed at 265. Bet he already weighs more than 265. Combine that weight with that f***ed up arm/shoulder and maybe its the combination of the three that creates issues for him.

 

Colon finished up listed at 5'11" and 285 but he was not throwing heat for a big part of his career. He was throwing junk.

 

Sabbathia was 6'6" and finished listed at 300. Even he was not pumping the ball up there at the end.

[moonslav59]

Nice phrase. You (and Kimmie) have chanced my thinking on this. It reminds me of what the great philosopher Jagger said, "You can't always get what you want, but sometimes.... you get what you need.'

 

We'd all like to see Mookie around for his entire career, but at what price? Do you want to see him here forever if it means we never win a WSC again because JH can't/won't spend enough additional money to put quality players around him?

 

We may not like this but it may be what we need.

 

They’re more the exception than the rule. I’m also looking at the stuff. Overpowering fastball. Middling slider. No clue on his change. That type of overwhelming power works better in short stints.

 

He wasn't "clearly" a RP'er, and you don't have to "stretch out" a guy who has started almost his whole career.

 

Fess up.

[notin]

CC, Wells, Bartolo, Zambrano...

 

I could have named a lot more, too. Rich Reuschel, Sid Fernandez, Carlos Silva, Pete Vukovich...

[notin]

Maybe its Graterol's weight on that frame as a FB pitcher that is a bit of a warning sign. He is only 6'1" and he was listed at 265. Bet he already weighs more than 265. Combine that weight with that f***ed up arm/shoulder and maybe its the combination of the three that creates issues for him.

 

Colon finished up listed at 5'11" and 285 but he was not throwing heat for a big part of his career. He was throwing junk.

 

Sabbathia was 6'6" and finished listed at 300. Even he was not pumping the ball up there at the end.

 

Or maybe all this "he can't be a starter" crap is based on the snap judgment of one person who saw Graterol pitch exactly one inning and caught a few other random highlights.

 

Before that sounds too judgmental on my part, I can confess I've probably made snap judgements on less...

[Slasher9]

Or maybe all this "he can't be a starter" crap is based on the snap judgment of one person who saw Graterol pitch exactly one inning and caught a few other random highlights.

 

Before that sounds too judgmental on my part, I can confess I've probably made snap judgements on less...

 

its a pink hat yankee

[jad]

Do Not Feed The Trolls.

[jung]

Or maybe all this "he can't be a starter" crap is based on the snap judgment of one person who saw Graterol pitch exactly one inning and caught a few other random highlights.

 

Before that sounds too judgmental on my part, I can confess I've probably made snap judgements on less...

 

Well something has happened to this deal and it appears to be focused on Graterol.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I could have named a lot more, too. Rich Reuschel, Sid Fernandez, Carlos Silva, Pete Vukovich...

 

Mickey Lolich, 1968 WS MVP, went 3-0, beat Bob Gibson in Game Seven.

 

This trade is a freakin disaster and already looks worse than selling Ruth maybe did at the time (before the season actually began). Both Sox acquisitions have injury issues, and one has character concerns -- the last thing Boston needs or will even tolerate at this point.

 

And believe me, Yankee fans are happy they have an easier path to the top seed with Betts out of the division and AL entirely... plus, they're licking their chops at a possible Price start in a NY-LA series.

 

The only way Bloom can save face -- and he may be working on this -- is to hold out for LA pitching prospects. Even if the Dodgers can win without Mookie, they can't lose the PR momentum of him in Dodger Blue.

 

In my opinion, this is not between the Twins and Red Sox; this is on LA, which refused to include even one prized arm from their entire system. Well, now they have to.

[mvp 78]

Look, I'm not overly happy about the Betts trade, but please stop with the "character concerns" nonsense. He's not implicated in anything except underage drinking.

[Bellhorn04]

This trade is a freakin disaster and already looks worse than selling Ruth maybe did at the time (before the season actually began).

 

C'mon man, no need for that sort of crazy hyperbole. They got nothing but cash for Ruth.

 

Plus the Sox only had Mookie for one more year. The Yanks got Ruth forever.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Look, I'm not overly happy about the Betts trade, but please stop with the "character concerns" nonsense. He's not implicated in anything except underage drinking.

 

Look, I'm on record with demanding Verdugo in any LA deal, but it wasn't my job to do due diligence background checks beforehand. I'm not saying he's guilty of anything, but you know and we all know that any little shread of controversy will be blown out of all proportions by the two-faced, backstabbing Boston media. Especially now.