David Price...

[moonslav59]

Not to be too psychological, I don't think ruthlessness enters into the equation with Henry. Ruthless is too emotional. Here is how Henry's approach was described to his business clients; "The firm's management methods make mechanical, non-discretionary trading decisions in response to systematic determinations of reversals in each market's direction, with the explicit intention of precluding not only human emotion, but also any subjective evaluation of factors outside of price behavior (such as the so-called fundamentals), to trigger each decision to be long or short each market, or not. "

 

That philosophy made him the fortune he used to buy his sports teams. I doubt if he would see any reason to change even if he could.

 

One could view that philosophy as being ruthless, in terms of not considering any human element to his decisions.

[moonslav59]

"That's what was needed at the time."

 

I'm going to disagree with you. They should have kept Theo and Tito as they've both had great success elsewhere. Also, no reason to kick them on their way out the door.

 

News flash: the Cubs are in the same boat we are now.

 

Tito rings since leaving Boston: 0.

 

Look, I loved both of those guys, but their time was up. Tito lost control of the team. He admitted it, later.

 

Theo made big mistakes, and if you look at his body of work after the Nomar trade, it was not even close to pre-Nomar's work. Theo admitted, later, that he made big mistakes. Yes, he brought the Cubs a long-awaited ring, and was somewhat forced into doing things like DD what did with us recently, but the fact is the Cubs and Guardians are not teams on the upswing, right now.

 

Sometimes, good guys need to be replaced.

[Elktonnick]

One could view that philosophy as being ruthless, in terms of not considering any human element to his decisions.

Touche! Well done

[notin]

"That's what was needed at the time."

 

I'm going to disagree with you. They should have kept Theo and Tito as they've both had great success elsewhere. Also, no reason to kick them on their way out the door.

 

Agreed.

 

But they have at least managed two titles since then to assuage us over those poor decisions...

[mvp 78]

Agreed.

 

But they have at least managed two titles since then to assuage us over those poor decisions...

 

I agree. It just makes for a very manic fan experience. Lots of rollercoaster seasons.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The narrative of Dombro selling the farm -- and thus dooming the future -- is overrated. He traded prospects for players who helped win a World Series; that was always the intention -- and it worked. So what, if right now the Sox don't have a lot of highly-rated minor leaguers to swap for other MLBers to help win another title.

 

What is rare is for a club to produce so many good young players that develop into stars and stay together like the 2016-18 core... But they'll replenish the system again soon to at least be able to use it for call-ups and trade bait.

 

I'd still rather have Sale than Moncada today; Sale had a down year, but still dominated at times with little run support. And a starting pitcher who can strike out 17 Rockies in 7 innings is harder to find these days than even a power/speed offensive threat who fans 150 times a year.

 

I have to agree with some posters here about the impulsive owners. Henry and Co. were all in on the big contracts last winter -- and really, ever since they hired Dombro -- then all of a sudden, after one-half of a lackluster season they seized his credit cards. No deadline moves was alarming, especially with an obvious need for a bullpen guy like Hudson or Anderson, etc (and you know Dave was just itching to dangle Dalbec, Chavis or someone of their ilk). Makes you wonder how much freedom the new Chief Baseball Officer has...

[Bellhorn04]

The narrative of Dombro selling the farm -- and thus dooming the future -- is overrated. He traded prospects for players who helped win a World Series; that was always the intention -- and it worked. So what, if right now the Sox don't have a lot of highly-rated minor leaguers to swap for other MLBers to help win another title.

 

What is rare is for a club to produce so many good young players that develop into stars and stay together like the 2016-18 core... But they'll replenish the system again soon to at least be able to use it for call-ups and trade bait.

 

I'd still rather have Sale than Moncada today; Sale had a down year, but still dominated at times with little run support. And a starting pitcher who can strike out 17 Rockies in 7 innings is harder to find these days than even a power/speed offensive threat who fans 150 times a year.

 

I have to agree with some posters here about the impulsive owners. Henry and Co. were all in on the big contracts last winter -- and really, ever since they hired Dombro -- then all of a sudden, after one-half of a lackluster season they seized his credit cards. No deadline moves was alarming, especially with an obvious need for a bullpen guy like Hudson or Anderson, etc (and you know Dave was just itching to dangle Dalbec, Chavis or someone of their ilk). Makes you wonder how much freedom the new Chief Baseball Officer has...

 

Well, there's always the other explanation, which is that Dombrowski was isolated and hard to get along with. Take your pick.

[mvp 78]

Well, there's always the other explanation, which is that Dombrowski was isolated and hard to get along with. Take your pick.

 

Isolated and hard to get along with is a great person to give an open checkbook to.

[harmony]

San Diego fans generally don't like a proposed trade of Wil Myers for David Price:

 

https://www.eastvillagetimes.com/is-a-wil-myers-for-david-price-trade-beneficial-for-padres/

 

Scroll down to comments.

[Bellhorn04]

San Diego fans generally don't like a proposed trade of Wil Myers for David Price:

 

https://www.eastvillagetimes.com/is-a-wil-myers-for-david-price-trade-beneficial-for-padres/

 

Scroll down to comments.

 

No problem. Just give us 60 million and whatever low-level prospect you can dredge up.

[notin]

San Diego fans generally don't like a proposed trade of Wil Myers for David Price:

 

https://www.eastvillagetimes.com/is-a-wil-myers-for-david-price-trade-beneficial-for-padres/

 

Scroll down to comments.

 

 

They all seem to think Hosmer straight up for Price or Sale straight up for Myers are better trades for “both teams.” Why didn’t you tell them about the trade value system on BTV?

[moonslav59]

The narrative of Dombro selling the farm -- and thus dooming the future -- is overrated. He traded prospects for players who helped win a World Series; that was always the intention -- and it worked. So what, if right now the Sox don't have a lot of highly-rated minor leaguers to swap for other MLBers to help win another title.

 

What is rare is for a club to produce so many good young players that develop into stars and stay together like the 2016-18 core... But they'll replenish the system again soon to at least be able to use it for call-ups and trade bait.

 

I'd still rather have Sale than Moncada today; Sale had a down year, but still dominated at times with little run support. And a starting pitcher who can strike out 17 Rockies in 7 innings is harder to find these days than even a power/speed offensive threat who fans 150 times a year.

 

I have to agree with some posters here about the impulsive owners. Henry and Co. were all in on the big contracts last winter -- and really, ever since they hired Dombro -- then all of a sudden, after one-half of a lackluster season they seized his credit cards. No deadline moves was alarming, especially with an obvious need for a bullpen guy like Hudson or Anderson, etc (and you know Dave was just itching to dangle Dalbec, Chavis or someone of their ilk). Makes you wonder how much freedom the new Chief Baseball Officer has...

 

The trades got us a ring, but why deny it seriously affected the future?

 

I'm not arguing to take any trades back, except for maybe the Thornburg deal, because they brought us a ring. What we did is not overrated, though. We traded all these prospects (highest soxprospects.com ranking).To think it didn't make a big difference is ignoring reality.

 

Players we'd be using in 2020:

1 Yoan Moncada

3 Manuel Margot

5 Jalen Beeks

5 Michael Kopech

9 Maurice Dubon

13 Logan Allen

17 Ty Buttrey

20 Gerson Bautista

 

Players who may never make an impact:

1 Blake Swihart

3 Anderson Espinoza

6 Javier Guerra

12 Wendel Rijo

20 Carlos Asuaje

 

It's not about whether the deals were worth it or not: it's about the known and predictable after effects.

[moonslav59]

They all seem to think Hosmer straight up for Price or Sale straight up for Myers are better trades for “both teams.” Why didn’t you tell them about the trade value system on BTV?

 

Hosmer is owed more than Price ($99M/6 to $96M/3).

 

The luxury tax hit would be nice ($18M vs $31), but I wouldn't do it. I've never been a fan of Hosmer. He's up and down almost every other year.

 

The trade simulator would not accept this trade, even though the values were nearly identical:

 

Price & JBJ

 

for

 

Hosmer, Margot, Quantrill & Campusano

[mvp 78]

No problem. Just give us 60 million and whatever low-level prospect you can dredge up.

 

Anderson Espinoza.

[Nick]

The trades got us a ring, but why deny it seriously affected the future?

 

I'm not arguing to take any trades back, except for maybe the Thornburg deal, because they brought us a ring. What we did is not overrated, though. We traded all these prospects (highest soxprospects.com ranking).To think it didn't make a big difference is ignoring reality.

 

Players we'd be using in 2020:

1 Yoan Moncada

3 Manuel Margot

5 Jalen Beeks

5 Michael Kopech

9 Maurice Dubon

13 Logan Allen

17 Ty Buttrey

20 Gerson Bautista

 

Players who may never make an impact:

1 Blake Swihart

3 Anderson Espinoza

6 Javier Guerra

12 Wendel Rijo

20 Carlos Asuaje

 

It's not about whether the deals were worth it or not: it's about the known and predictable after effects.

 

What the hell Moon? So you would have not made the Chris Freakin' Sale trade? What are you saying?

[moonslav59]

What the hell Moon? So you would have not made the Chris Freakin' Sale trade? What are you saying?

 

I thought I made myself clear. I said this was not about wanting to take back any trades, except maybe the Thornburg one.

 

I have no beef with DD. We won a ring.

 

My point was back then as well as now, that we sacrificed much of the future to get that ring. There's no point in denying it.

 

I was fine with trading the future as long as we won a ring. We did. I knew we'd hit a wall (cliff) at some point because of the sheer quantity of deals we made, and the fact that we dealt some top prospects. Sure, we knew all of them would not make an impact, and I'm glad we kept Devers, but the future is here, now. It came quicker than even I expected, but it's here.

 

I was responding to the comment that the idea that we traded away the farm was "overrated." Clearly, it was not.

 

All the posters who said things like, "We'll replenish the farm- no problem" are the ones who have some explaining to do- not me.

 

[moonslav59]

Anderson Espinoza.

 

Price and JBJ

 

for

 

Hosmer, Margot and $30M ($5M a year for all of Hosmer's 6 remaining years).

 

Luxury tax savings

 

2020: $29M (31 Price + 11M JBJ for 18 Hosmer - 5 payment)

2021: $18M + whatever Margot costs

2022: $18M + Margot

2023: -$13M Hosmer ($18M-$5M payment)

2024: -$13M

2025: -$13M

 

 

[moonslav59]

This trade was accepted:

 

Price, Eovaldi & JBJ

 

for

 

Hosmer, Margot, Hunt (C- minors) & Rosario (2B- minors)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The trades got us a ring, but why deny it seriously affected the future?

 

I'm not arguing to take any trades back, except for maybe the Thornburg deal, because they brought us a ring. What we did is not overrated, though. We traded all these prospects (highest soxprospects.com ranking).To think it didn't make a big difference is ignoring reality.

 

Players we'd be using in 2020:

1 Yoan Moncada

3 Manuel Margot

5 Jalen Beeks

5 Michael Kopech

9 Maurice Dubon

13 Logan Allen

17 Ty Buttrey

20 Gerson Bautista

 

Players who may never make an impact:

1 Blake Swihart

3 Anderson Espinoza

6 Javier Guerra

12 Wendel Rijo

20 Carlos Asuaje

 

It's not about whether the deals were worth it or not: it's about the known and predictable after effects.

 

I'm not denying that losing those prospects affected the now future... just not by as much as some people feared. I look at that list and see nothing predictable, except that Moncada's multi-talents are beginning to develop at the big league level. I see mainly some pitching depth, but no stars... yet. Kopech throws 100+, so does Eovaldi; Buttrey is a useful bullpen arm, so is Josh Taylor. In the infield, Dubon is 25, so is Jose Peraza, etc. The one guy I didn't want to give up was Espinoza, but that deal actually worked out better than most.

[moonslav59]

I'm not denying that losing those prospects affected the now future... just not by as much as some people feared. I look at that list and see nothing predictable, except that Moncada's multi-talents are beginning to develop at the big league level. I see mainly some pitching depth, but no stars... yet. Kopech throws 100+, so does Eovaldi; Buttrey is a useful bullpen arm, so is Josh Taylor. In the infield, Dubon is 25, so is Jose Peraza, etc. The one guy I didn't want to give up was Espinoza, but that deal actually worked out better than most.

 

Moncada or Dubon would be our starting 2Bman. (Moncada could DH, if we traded JD or in 2021 after JD opts out.)

 

Margot would start in CF (JBJ traded or DFA'd)

 

Buttrey would be our 2nd or 3rd best pen arm.

 

Allen or Kopech would make our rotation, and the other would be our 6th starter. (Both would start, if we traded Price or Eovaldi.)

 

Beeks would be our long man or spot starter.

 

That's 7 slots filled or improved upon. (Bautista might make the pen.)

 

That's hardly overrated. The main thing is these guys cost pennies on the dollars compared to the guys they would replace. That would allow enough budget space to add a lot more talent.

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by moonslav59

[Swiharts Ghost]

This trade was accepted:

 

Price, Eovaldi & JBJ

 

for

 

Hosmer, Margot, Hunt (C- minors) & Rosario (2B- minors)

 

Hellllllllllll No.....ok Moon I’m coming around to Aj Pollock for price .The Guy has a good glove and a Fenway swing .Sign me up deal is Price for Pollock .

Edited December 27, 2019 by Swiharts Ghost

[moonslav59]

Hellllllllllll No.....ok Moon I’m coming around to Aj Pollock for price .The Guy has a good glove and a Fenway swing .Sign me up deal is Price for Pollock .

 

It's not about the players, although I like Margot in CF, and the two prospects had good value on this site. It's about the money saved and what Bloom can do with it.

 

Price+ Eovaldi+ JBJ= $59M on the lux tax in 2020, $48M in 2021 and $48M in 2022.

 

Hosmer costs $18M x 6.

 

That's $41M saved in 2020. We fill our 1B position and replace JBJ with a good defensive CF'er with upside offense. (Margot>Pollock)

 

I'm not saying I'm for the deal, but dumping both bad contracts deserves serious consideration.

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Moncada or Dubon would be our starting 2Bman. (Moncada could DH, if we traded JD or in 2021 after JD opts out.)

 

Margot would start in CF (JBJ traded or DFA'd)

 

Buttrey would be our 2nd or 3rd best pen arm.

 

Allen or Kopech would make our rotation, and the other would be our 6th starter. (Both would start, if we traded Price or Eovaldi.)

 

Beeks would be our long man or spot starter.

 

That's 7 slots filled or improved upon. (Bautista might make the pen.)

 

That's hardly overrated. The main thing is these guys cost pennies on the dollars compared to the guys they would replace. That would allow enough budget space to add a lot more talent.

 

 

I think we're talking in circles; we all are basically, until something -- anything of note happens to rouse this snooze-fest offseason. Replacing decent players with other decent players so we can free up funds to invest in other decent players, all in the hopes of continuing to watch a decent team with a decent chance to win... While not indecent, it often feels like a descent.

[cp176]

Moncada or Dubon would be our starting 2Bman. (Moncada could DH, if we traded JD or in 2021 after JD opts out.)

 

Margot would start in CF (JBJ traded or DFA'd)

 

Buttrey would be our 2nd or 3rd best pen arm.

 

Allen or Kopech would make our rotation, and the other would be our 6th starter. (Both would start, if we traded Price or Eovaldi.)

 

Beeks would be our long man or spot starter.

 

That's 7 slots filled or improved upon. (Bautista might make the pen.)

 

That's hardly overrated. The main thing is these guys cost pennies on the dollars compared to the guys they would replace. That would allow enough budget space to add a lot more talent.

 

 

There really are multiple ways of looking at things aren't there. If Pedroia had not been injured, I'm willing to bet that we would not be missing Dubon much. I wonder if anyone really felt that JBJ wouldn't be able to be a consistent hitter and play cf for us for many years to come. Personally I actually felt that Sandoval was going to be able to help just a little as well. As for the pitching staff, I never would have predicted that the injury bug would have hit us the way it did. Moncada is still the only one on the list that might be truly missed.

[jacksonianmarch]

What the hell Moon? So you would have not made the Chris Freakin' Sale trade? What are you saying?

 

He’s not saying that. He’s showing you the now impact of the deals made to win that title. The now impact is rather substantial. Take a look.

 

1. ERod

2. Price (free agent)

3. Eovaldi (also free agent, didn’t get dealt for Beeks)

4. Kopech

5. Beeks

6. Allen

 

Closer/Setup- Buttrey

 

C- Vaz

1b- Shaw

2b- Moncada

SS- Bogey

3b- Devers

LF- Beni

CF- Margot

RF- Betts

DH JD

 

Util- Dubon

 

That’s a pretty deep team. But it was worth demolishing it to win a title. Acknowledging the worth but seeing what could have been is entirely appropriate

[Bellhorn04]

He’s not saying that. He’s showing you the now impact of the deals made to win that title. The now impact is rather substantial. Take a look.

 

1. ERod

2. Price (free agent)

3. Eovaldi (also free agent, didn’t get dealt for Beeks)

4. Kopech

5. Beeks

6. Allen

 

Closer/Setup- Buttrey

 

C- Vaz

1b- Shaw

2b- Moncada

SS- Bogey

3b- Devers

LF- Beni

CF- Margot

RF- Betts

DH JD

 

Util- Dubon

 

That’s a pretty deep team. But it was worth demolishing it to win a title. Acknowledging the worth but seeing what could have been is entirely appropriate

 

2020 projections (from B-R)

 

Kopech 61 IP 4.57 ERA

Beeks 85 IP 4.55 ERA

Allen 54 IP 4.83 ERA

 

Those numbers are just stabs in the dark, obviously, but it shows what unknown quantities they are.

[jacksonianmarch]

If Kopech is healthy, he’s gonna be a force. I’m less impressed with Allen. The way the Rays utilize Beeks will likely lead to pretty solid performances. They use him as a bulk guy, therefore missing the top of the order first time through and he’s usually out of the game before he has to face the top of the order twice

[Bellhorn04]

If Kopech is healthy, he’s gonna be a force. I’m less impressed with Allen. The way the Rays utilize Beeks will likely lead to pretty solid performances. They use him as a bulk guy, therefore missing the top of the order first time through and he’s usually out of the game before he has to face the top of the order twice

 

Beeks had a 6.49 ERA and a 1.77 WHIP after the ASB last year. I don't think he's actually all that good.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Beeks had a 6.49 ERA and a 1.77 WHIP after the ASB last year. I don't think he's actually all that good.

 

I don't think any of them are, really (except Moncada) -- or not replaceable. Shaw got cut this year and Margot lost his starting position. Kopech could be good, but there have been plenty of fireballers who flame out before they make it big or are never the same after major surgery.

 

Point is, no fans of any team wouldn't have traded all those guys if it meant their team would win a title. Counterpoint is, not many of us here would've traded so many in Dombro's 4-for-1s... unless, the extra prospects sealed the deals. We won't ever know if some other clubs had better offers on the table before Dombro threw in the Allens etc.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't think any of them are, really (except Moncada) -- or not replaceable. Shaw got cut this year and Margot lost his starting position. Kopech could be good, but there have been plenty of fireballers who flame out before they make it big or are never the same after major surgery.

 

Point is, no fans of any team wouldn't have traded all those guys if it meant their team would win a title. Counterpoint is, not many of us here would've traded so many in Dombro's 4-for-1s... unless, the extra prospects sealed the deals. We won't ever know if some other clubs had better offers on the table before Dombro threw in the Allens etc.

 

I agree.