David Price...

[notin]

Didn't someone cut their foot getting out of bed?

 

 

Paxton Crawford cut his pitching hand on a glass when he was getting out of bed.

 

Also - don’t forget eye poked by baby

[OH FOY]

JA Happ has to be considered too now, if the Yanks eat some money. Much cheaper, and wont have to give up any good Prospects.

[Bellhorn04]

JA Happ has to be considered too now, if the Yanks eat some money. Much cheaper, and wont have to give up any good Prospects.

 

I don't think there's any chance of that happening.

[moonslav59]

I don't think there's any chance of that happening.

 

I guess, if we dump Price and or Eovaldi or Betts and have budget space for some bridge deals to fill slots temporarily, someone like Happ might be slightly possible, but I think Bloom will be looking for pieces that will be useful beyond 2020 at a relatively low cost.

[harmony]

JA Happ has to be considered too now, if the Yanks eat some money. Much cheaper, and wont have to give up any good Prospects.

This presumably addresses the potential competition the Red Sox would face with David Price in the trade market for starters, not suggesting that J.A. Happ is a Sox trade target.

 

Or not.

[OH FOY]

I was talking about other teams might want to go for Happ, not the Sox. haha. Could be cheaper option if your looking for back-end kind of Starter. Yanks eat 5 million, not a bad, alternative. 2 years ago, Happ wasn't that bad.

[notin]

I was talking about other teams might want to go for Happ, not the Sox. haha. Could be cheaper option if your looking for back-end kind of Starter. Yanks eat 5 million, not a bad, alternative. 2 years ago, Happ wasn't that bad.

 

Happ makes $17mill next year. Is having the Yankees eat $5mill really enough for any team to make this a palatable deal? I bet they could do better in free agency for $12 mill.

 

2 years ago, Eovaldi was pretty good. He’s also 8 years younger than Happ, just as likely to bounce back, and not a rental. Both pitchers make the same salary.

 

Why not just give up a bit more and trade for Eovaldi?

[harmony]

Happ makes $17mill next year. Is having the Yankees eat $5mill really enough for any team to make this a palatable deal? I bet they could do better in free agency for $12 mill.

 

2 years ago, Eovaldi was pretty good. He’s also 8 years younger than Happ, just as likely to bounce back, and not a rental. Both pitchers make the same salary.

 

Why not just give up a bit more and trade for Eovaldi?

In 2018 Nathan Eovaldi posted 2.2 fWAR in 111 inning while J.A. Happ posted 3.0 fWAR in 177.2 innings. Over the past two seasons Eovaldi has posted 1.9 fWAR in 178.2 innings while Happ has posted 4.2 fWAR in 339 innings.

 

Baseball Trade Values gives Eovaldi a negative value of $29.5 million and Happ a negative value of $9.1 million. Eovaldi is unlikely to command a better return than Happ.

 

However, Steamer projects Eovaldi with a 2020 WAR of 2.1 in 148 innings and Happ with a 2020 WAR of 0.9 in 87 innings.

[moonslav59]

In 2018 Nathan Eovaldi posted 2.2 fWAR in 111 inning while J.A. Happ posted 3.0 fWAR in 177.2 innings. Over the past two seasons Eovaldi has posted 1.9 fWAR in 178.2 innings while Happ has posted 4.2 fWAR in 339 innings.

 

Baseball Trade Values gives Eovaldi a negative value of $29.5 million and Happ a negative value of $9.1 million. Eovaldi is unlikely to command a better return than Happ.

 

However, Steamer projects Eovaldi with a 2020 WAR of 2.1 in 148 innings and Happ with a 2020 WAR of 0.9 in 87 innings.

 

Eovaldi's -29.5 is mostly due to 3 years left on his contract to just 1 for Happ.

 

Teams were interested in Eovaldi, last winter, and it's not like his injury history is much worse, now. Plus, 3 years is less than a 4 year deal.

 

Eovaldi for Odor or Herrera.

[jacksonianmarch]

Steamer also projects based on role, and Happ doesn’t presently have a rotation spot.

 

Here’s the deal, Happ was a reliable arm through 2018 essentially being a 3 WASr pitcher for four straight years. He’s on a 1 yr deal with a vesting option that’s easily controlled. If Happ does well, then the option is a boon. If he doesn’t, you cut bait and don’t worry about 2021. I think dealing Happ is going to be pretty simple for the Yanks. We

Don’t care about return, just salary relief and we may be better off waiting til ST when some starters inevitably go down for the year

[moonslav59]

Steamer also projects based on role, and Happ doesn’t presently have a rotation spot.

 

Here’s the deal, Happ was a reliable arm through 2018 essentially being a 3 WASr pitcher for four straight years. He’s on a 1 yr deal with a vesting option that’s easily controlled. If Happ does well, then the option is a boon. If he doesn’t, you cut bait and don’t worry about 2021. I think dealing Happ is going to be pretty simple for the Yanks. We

Don’t care about return, just salary relief and we may be better off waiting til ST when some starters inevitably go down for the year

 

This was the guy you defended to the hilt last winter after I suggested his age was due to catch up to him.

[harmony]

Eovaldi's -29.5 is mostly due to 3 years left on his contract to just 1 for Happ.

 

Teams were interested in Eovaldi, last winter, and it's not like his injury history is much worse, now. Plus, 3 years is less than a 4 year deal.

 

Eovaldi for Odor or Herrera.

The Texas Rangers probably need Rougned Odor more than Nathan Eovaldi after acquiring Corey Kluber, Kyle Gibson and Jordan Lyles this offseason.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/depth-charts/rangers

 

Other than that, the trade would represent only a minor overpay by the Rangers, according to Baseball Trade Values (and would save the Red Sox nearly $9 million AAV for three seasons).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Watched youtube highlights of '18 postseason on the new Christmas TV yesterday... Eovaldi struckout Bregman in the last AL game, 102 mph. He has the stuff to put together an All-Star season, and I hope it's for the Red Sox.

[cp176]

I guess, if we dump Price and or Eovaldi or Betts and have budget space for some bridge deals to fill slots temporarily, someone like Happ might be slightly possible, but I think Bloom will be looking for pieces that will be useful beyond 2020 at a relatively low cost.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing them all back in boston.

[jacksonianmarch]

This was the guy you defended to the hilt last winter after I suggested his age was due to catch up to him.

 

Age wasn’t much of a factor. His velo fell by 0.7 mph, so maybe that’s age, although it’s right around where he was in 17-18. He was throwing smoke out of the pen, so it isn’t like it wasn’t there. He threw less fastballs last year, although he was successful in 2015 with a sub 70% fastball rate. He peaked above 9K/9IP in 2018 and fell to 7.8 last year. But that’s exactly where he was in 16-17 when he amassed 6 WAR. His walk rate was almost exactly what it was in 2016. The only major change was HR rate. Was this super ball? Was this age? Not sure, but the peripherals and his performance point to a rebound. I’d be more concerned if his velocity dropped 1+ mph or was way below his effective velocity or was in a range he’s never seen before or been effective at.

 

Someone’s gonna take a chance on him. We will have to eat some money. My bet is we get IFA money back.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

This Red Sox offseason of inertia and downsizing has presented a type of stress that fans have seldom experienced here. We're worried about things that haven't happened yet or may never happen. And it all keeps getting blamed on expensive pitchers, which must seem ridiculous to fans, players, and maybe even a few GMs of other clubs.

 

When Boston signed Sale and Eovaldi a year ago -- no matter what you think of age/health/dollars -- the bottom line is that investing in starting pitching is the right move for a contending club. And these guys had just proven they could deliver a world title; Sale had pitched like a Hall of Famer for seven years and Eovaldi looked like he had finally harnessed his potential (and before anyone brings up durability: in the WS he pitched in Game One, Game Two, and after a travel day, worked in seven innings in Game Three). Price had also come through in the clutch.

 

And now, because of MLB rules, the Sox feel they have to trade at least one of their core starters... For what? If it's to save money to sign Mookie Betts, I'm ok with it. But if that's not a guarantee -- and every single quote from everyone involved says it's not -- then what's the point? To save money to use sooner or later to sign other pitchers, be they free agents or draft picks?

 

The front office, Dombrowski, the owners, etc. all knew this winter coming; they couldn't all suddenly be in shock. They couldn't have just been going for it one last time in 2019, either, since they locked up their starters for multiple years. Are we really to believe that one mediocre offyear has changed the entire braintrust's plan about the roster, specifically starting pitching, and the best assets that lead to winning (the same ones that virtually every world champion has featured since 1903)?

[Elktonnick]

This Red Sox offseason of inertia and downsizing has presented a type of stress that fans have seldom experienced here. We're worried about things that haven't happened yet or may never happen. And it all keeps getting blamed on expensive pitchers, which must seem ridiculous to fans, players, and maybe even a few GMs of other clubs.

 

When Boston signed Sale and Eovaldi a year ago -- no matter what you think of age/health/dollars -- the bottom line is that investing in starting pitching is the right move for a contending club. And these guys had just proven they could deliver a world title; Sale had pitched like a Hall of Famer for seven years and Eovaldi looked like he had finally harnessed his potential (and before anyone brings up durability: in the WS he pitched in Game One, Game Two, and after a travel day, worked in seven innings in Game Three). Price had also come through in the clutch.

 

And now, because of MLB rules, the Sox feel they have to trade at least one of their core starters... For what? If it's to save money to sign Mookie Betts, I'm ok with it. But if that's not a guarantee -- and every single quote from everyone involved says it's not -- then what's the point? To save money to use sooner or later to sign other pitchers, be they free agents or draft picks?

 

The front office, Dombrowski, the owners, etc. all knew this winter coming; they couldn't all suddenly be in shock. They couldn't have just been going for it one last time in 2019, either, since they locked up their starters for multiple years. Are we really to believe that one mediocre offyear has changed the entire braintrust's plan about the roster, specifically starting pitching, and the best assets that lead to winning (the same ones that virtually every world champion has featured since 1903)?

Bravo! Clarisimo! Well said!

[mvp 78]

This Red Sox offseason of inertia and downsizing has presented a type of stress that fans have seldom experienced here. We're worried about things that haven't happened yet or may never happen. And it all keeps getting blamed on expensive pitchers, which must seem ridiculous to fans, players, and maybe even a few GMs of other clubs.

 

When Boston signed Sale and Eovaldi a year ago -- no matter what you think of age/health/dollars -- the bottom line is that investing in starting pitching is the right move for a contending club. And these guys had just proven they could deliver a world title; Sale had pitched like a Hall of Famer for seven years and Eovaldi looked like he had finally harnessed his potential (and before anyone brings up durability: in the WS he pitched in Game One, Game Two, and after a travel day, worked in seven innings in Game Three). Price had also come through in the clutch.

 

And now, because of MLB rules, the Sox feel they have to trade at least one of their core starters... For what? If it's to save money to sign Mookie Betts, I'm ok with it. But if that's not a guarantee -- and every single quote from everyone involved says it's not -- then what's the point? To save money to use sooner or later to sign other pitchers, be they free agents or draft picks?

 

The front office, Dombrowski, the owners, etc. all knew this winter coming; they couldn't all suddenly be in shock. They couldn't have just been going for it one last time in 2019, either, since they locked up their starters for multiple years. Are we really to believe that one mediocre offyear has changed the entire braintrust's plan about the roster, specifically starting pitching, and the best assets that lead to winning (the same ones that virtually every world champion has featured since 1903)?

 

Honestly, I think John Henry is a guy who lets other people make decisions and then bitches about them if they don't work out. The prime example is Carl Crawford. JH let Theo go crazy in FA in 2010-2011 offseason. People on here (*cough* *cough* A700) wigged out and thought it was the best thing ever and couldn't stop talking about how great Theo was now because the signings showed that he was ready to play big boy baseball. Everyone was happy until they choked on donkey dick in August and September because of the pitching. The next offseason, they just had to blame someone for the failure so they dumped Theo and Tito and kicked them out the door with amazing pettiness. JH get pissy over comments made on a local radio station, so he called up and ranted about how he wasn't at fault for any of it. It was chicken and beer. It was the Carl Crawford signing WHICH HE WAS AGAINST FROM DAY ONE BECAUSE HE KNEW IT JUST DIDN'T WORK OUT AND HE ALLOWED THE GM TO MAKE THAT CALL EVEN THOUGH THE GM THOUGHT HE HAD TO FEED THE MONSTER AT THAT TIME. So then they hire Ben to be the GM and don't let him do anything and make him hire a pick yourself up by the bootstraps old school Bobby V as manager. See it was the players and coaches that were at fault for the swoon so let's treat them like garbage to show them who is really in charge. It couldn't be that ownership made a mistake since HE REALLY HATED CARL CRAWFORD EVEN THOUGH HE'S A PLAYER STILL UNDER CONTRACT. We all know what happens next, Bobby V sucks the life out of the team and they have to do a complete teardown a half year after barely missing the playoffs.

 

John Henry just can't take failure even when it's his fault. He doesn't know how to manage and anytime there is a rough patch he just loses it and says f*** it let's throw the baby out with the bathwater. My concern is that he's doing the same thing now. They won 108 games in 2018 with mostly the same squad. They had a WS hangover just like they had in 05 and 14. Big deal. I agree that signalling to the fans that they want to cut payroll is pretty s***** given how much tickets are these days. I don't agree that it affects the offseason moves that Bloom wants/needs to make. John Henry is just a passive aggressive toddler who is going to take his ball and go home to mommy whenever he doesn't win (see Crawford reaction, how he treated the greatest Sox manager of all time, hiring dickhead coach to piss off his players, etc.).

[moonslav59]

Age wasn’t much of a factor. His velo fell by 0.7 mph, so maybe that’s age, although it’s right around where he was in 17-18. He was throwing smoke out of the pen, so it isn’t like it wasn’t there. He threw less fastballs last year, although he was successful in 2015 with a sub 70% fastball rate. He peaked above 9K/9IP in 2018 and fell to 7.8 last year. But that’s exactly where he was in 16-17 when he amassed 6 WAR. His walk rate was almost exactly what it was in 2016. The only major change was HR rate. Was this super ball? Was this age? Not sure, but the peripherals and his performance point to a rebound. I’d be more concerned if his velocity dropped 1+ mph or was way below his effective velocity or was in a range he’s never seen before or been effective at.

 

Someone’s gonna take a chance on him. We will have to eat some money. My bet is we get IFA money back.

 

If he's that good, why do you & the Yanks want him gone?

[moonslav59]

Honestly, I think John Henry is a guy who lets other people make decisions and then bitches about them if they don't work out. The prime example is Carl Crawford. JH let Theo go crazy in FA in 2010-2011 offseason. People on here (*cough* *cough* A700) wigged out and thought it was the best thing ever and couldn't stop talking about how great Theo was now because the signings showed that he was ready to play big boy baseball. Everyone was happy until they choked on donkey dick in August and September because of the pitching. The next offseason, they just had to blame someone for the failure so they dumped Theo and Tito and kicked them out the door with amazing pettiness. JH get pissy over comments made on a local radio station, so he called up and ranted about how he wasn't at fault for any of it. It was chicken and beer. It was the Carl Crawford signing WHICH HE WAS AGAINST FROM DAY ONE BECAUSE HE KNEW IT JUST DIDN'T WORK OUT AND HE ALLOWED THE GM TO MAKE THAT CALL EVEN THOUGH THE GM THOUGHT HE HAD TO FEED THE MONSTER AT THAT TIME. So then they hire Ben to be the GM and don't let him do anything and make him hire a pick yourself up by the bootstraps old school Bobby V as manager. See it was the players and coaches that were at fault for the swoon so let's treat them like garbage to show them who is really in charge. It couldn't be that ownership made a mistake since HE REALLY HATED CARL CRAWFORD EVEN THOUGH HE'S A PLAYER STILL UNDER CONTRACT. We all know what happens next, Bobby V sucks the life out of the team and they have to do a complete teardown a half year after barely missing the playoffs.

 

John Henry just can't take failure even when it's his fault. He doesn't know how to manage and anytime there is a rough patch he just loses it and says f*** it let's throw the baby out with the bathwater. My concern is that he's doing the same thing now. They won 108 games in 2018 with mostly the same squad. They had a WS hangover just like they had in 05 and 14. Big deal. I agree that signalling to the fans that they want to cut payroll is pretty s***** given how much tickets are these days. I don't agree that it affects the offseason moves that Bloom wants/needs to make. John Henry is just a passive aggressive toddler who is going to take his ball and go home to mommy whenever he doesn't win (see Crawford reaction, how he treated the greatest Sox manager of all time, hiring dickhead coach to piss off his players, etc.).

 

Henry was the best thing that ever happened to the Sox. Is he or anybody perfect? No, but he was the number one reason we have 4 rings. He's hired some great people to do what needed to be done. He's fired (or let them walk) most of them,too, but in many ways, that's what was needed at the time.

 

(BTW, many of us hated the CC signing. I called him a "glorified platoon player whose contract would cripple us for years.")

[Elktonnick]

Henry was the best thing that ever happened to the Sox. Is he or anybody perfect? No, but he was the number one reason we have 4 rings. He's hired some great people to do what needed to be done. He's fired (or let them walk) most of them,too, but in many ways, that's what was needed at the time.

 

(BTW, many of us hated the CC signing. I called him a "glorified platoon player whose contract would cripple us for years.")

I mostly agree about Henry. Henry for all his good points and faults is not a people person. He is an algorithm.

[Bellhorn04]

This Red Sox offseason of inertia and downsizing has presented a type of stress that fans have seldom experienced here. We're worried about things that haven't happened yet or may never happen. And it all keeps getting blamed on expensive pitchers, which must seem ridiculous to fans, players, and maybe even a few GMs of other clubs.

 

When Boston signed Sale and Eovaldi a year ago -- no matter what you think of age/health/dollars -- the bottom line is that investing in starting pitching is the right move for a contending club. And these guys had just proven they could deliver a world title; Sale had pitched like a Hall of Famer for seven years and Eovaldi looked like he had finally harnessed his potential (and before anyone brings up durability: in the WS he pitched in Game One, Game Two, and after a travel day, worked in seven innings in Game Three). Price had also come through in the clutch.

 

And now, because of MLB rules, the Sox feel they have to trade at least one of their core starters... For what? If it's to save money to sign Mookie Betts, I'm ok with it. But if that's not a guarantee -- and every single quote from everyone involved says it's not -- then what's the point? To save money to use sooner or later to sign other pitchers, be they free agents or draft picks?

 

The front office, Dombrowski, the owners, etc. all knew this winter coming; they couldn't all suddenly be in shock. They couldn't have just been going for it one last time in 2019, either, since they locked up their starters for multiple years. Are we really to believe that one mediocre offyear has changed the entire braintrust's plan about the roster, specifically starting pitching, and the best assets that lead to winning (the same ones that virtually every world champion has featured since 1903)?

 

It's all about cost.

 

The MLB pay system and tax system has created a situation where the cost of your talent can rise by multiples in a short time without you doing anything.

 

2018 AAV's:

 

Chris Sale 12.5

Mookie Betts 10.5

Xander Bogaerts 7.05

JBJ 6.1

E-Rod 2.375

Total 38.525

Avg 7.705

 

2020 AAV's including arb projections:

 

Chris Sale 25.6

Mookie Betts 27.5

Xander Bogaerts 20

JBJ 11.5

E-Rod 9

Total 93.6

Avg 18.72

 

So for these 5 players, the cost is 250% as high 2 years later.

 

And the initial luxury tax rate is also 250% as high (from 20 to 50).

 

It's a system that makes keeping a good team together for even a short period very difficult, no matter how rich or smart you are or how much planning you do.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Bellhorn04

[Bellhorn04]

I mostly agree about Henry. Henry for all his good points and faults is not a people person. He is an algorithm.

 

There's no way to win though. Henry doesn't say much, but every little thing he says about the team or the payroll or the tax is like a huge bucket of chum tossed into a shark pool.

 

If he talked more it would only be worse.

[moonslav59]

This Red Sox offseason of inertia and downsizing has presented a type of stress that fans have seldom experienced here. We're worried about things that haven't happened yet or may never happen. And it all keeps getting blamed on expensive pitchers, which must seem ridiculous to fans, players, and maybe even a few GMs of other clubs.

 

When Boston signed Sale and Eovaldi a year ago -- no matter what you think of age/health/dollars -- the bottom line is that investing in starting pitching is the right move for a contending club. And these guys had just proven they could deliver a world title; Sale had pitched like a Hall of Famer for seven years and Eovaldi looked like he had finally harnessed his potential (and before anyone brings up durability: in the WS he pitched in Game One, Game Two, and after a travel day, worked in seven innings in Game Three). Price had also come through in the clutch.

 

And now, because of MLB rules, the Sox feel they have to trade at least one of their core starters... For what? If it's to save money to sign Mookie Betts, I'm ok with it. But if that's not a guarantee -- and every single quote from everyone involved says it's not -- then what's the point? To save money to use sooner or later to sign other pitchers, be they free agents or draft picks?

 

The front office, Dombrowski, the owners, etc. all knew this winter coming; they couldn't all suddenly be in shock. They couldn't have just been going for it one last time in 2019, either, since they locked up their starters for multiple years. Are we really to believe that one mediocre offyear has changed the entire braintrust's plan about the roster, specifically starting pitching, and the best assets that lead to winning (the same ones that virtually every world champion has featured since 1903)?

 

I'm not stressed at all about this off season, and I'm pretty sure this "cliff" or whatever it's called is not a shock to management. Maybe it came a year or two earlier than hoped or expected, but anybody who has been around baseball knows things can turn on a dime. (Yes, that also means we could turn things around to the good and seriously compete in 2020 with the team, as is.)

 

I don't think one "mediocre year" changed our roster plans. I think we knew all along that the day of reckoning would someday be upon us.

 

What has changed is the outlook of the big 3 SP'ers: Sale, Price and Eovaldi. The pitching you and I and Sox management sees as the best way to build a true winner.

 

Eovaldi's really hasn't changed much in the grand scheme of things, but after his 2019 playoff performance, we just felt better about his future and paid him too much and for too long. Can he rebound? Hell yes! Will he? Looking at his history, I see more reason to think no than yes.

 

Price has gotten a lot of discussion, including this thread. He's another guy who got our hopes peaked by his 2019 playoff output after being pretty disappointing just about every year before and after. Something is clearly wrong with him. We can try to deny it and hope his "miracle arm" carries us through 2020, but I, personally, doubt it happens. I seriously doubt it. The guy looked as good as Scherzer at the time of their signings, but he's done nothing since 2016 to show much reason to hope. A brief period here and there have flamed the hopes. He's pitched about 350 innings the last 3 years (age 31-33). If he starts off 2020 like he did 2019, his trade value could rise enough to make it more worthwhile trading him, but if you look closely at his 2019 start, you'll see serious cause for concern that even Sox management saw.

 

After his first 2 bad starts, he pitched 7 innings (92 pitches) in game 3 (0 ERs). He never pitched 7 innings again, all year, in fact, he never pitched over 6 innings. He did have 2 starts with over 100 pitches later that summer, but he lost it in mid July. Sure, one could point to 16 starts from April 14 to July 19 and say we might get that for 32 starts in 2020, but I see no basis for that optimism. He ended the season with just 2 starts after August 1st (4.2 IP combined).

 

Those 16 starts: 9-7 3.25 ERA (.664 OPS against).

 

That brings me to Sale. Chris Freakin' Sale! At time, he looked more like Freakin' Chris Sale, this year, but I still have more hope for him than Price and Eovadi combined. However, there is much to be concerned about. His velocity is down, and it may take time for him to re-invent himself. He's got the right attitude and determination to do it, but expecting it to happen overnight is likely being too optimistic. Can he reagin the velocity and not have to change his style? Maybe- maybe not. Either way, it's a huge "if."

 

Certainly things have greatly changed for these 3 SP'ers since this time last year.

 

Yes, the focus was and will always be about the pitching, namely the rotation, so in my opinion, it's more than just a "mediocre season" that has changed the outlook and trajectory of this team: it's the pitching. Add the pen woes to the projections of our big 3 starters and I don't think it's shocking at all to seriously consider moving the rebuild up a year or two.

 

I'm fine with waiting it out, just in case we rebound, and if we don't, maybe have a July sell-off, but doing that may seriously damage the scope of the rebuild- weakening and extending the time it takes to get back to the top.

 

It's a tough call to make, but clearly the top brass has not decided to go "all in" for 2020. The choices, now, seem to be play it half way or start the rebuild sooner rather than later.

[Elktonnick]

There's no way to win though. Henry doesn't say much, but every little thing he says about the team or the payroll or the tax is like a huge bucket of chum tossed into a shark pool.

 

If he talked more it would only be worse.

While I agree, it isn't what he says or doesn't say that makes me think it isn't a people person so much as what he does. I am not criticizing Henry for being an "algorithm" that is just who he is.

 

And he has been quite successful at it. Who am I to criticize a guy who not only has built a team to win 4 World Series Champions but also a Championsip Soccer Team in the English Premier League. Those are truly impressive accomplishments.

[moonslav59]

I mostly agree about Henry. Henry for all his good points and faults is not a people person. He is an algorithm.

 

Being a people person is obviously not a necessary quality to winning or being successful.

 

He got us 4 rings, so all his faults have been outweighed by those 4 seasons. We've also been damn good in most of the other seasons, as well.

 

I think the move to Bloom was the necessary thing to do. Sure, it might suck to have a year or two with little playoff hopes, but I'm confident we have the right guy to get us back to the top. I'm not going to freak out about a bad year or two. I knew this day was coming when we traded away just about every top prospect, except Devers, ERod and Beni. Now, it's time to pay the piper. I'm not sure why it seems so shocking to some. I admit, I was surprised it came in 2019 not 2020 or 2021, but the writing was on the walls. (Sorry for all the cliches.)

 

We still have a solid base to build upon. Bogey, Devers, ERod, Beni and a few others under team control beyond 2020 could be enough to make the turn-around shorter and less painful, but my only worry is that by trying for one last hurrah in 2020, we damage the scope of the rebuild by not getting the most we can out of our shorter controlled players and over-priced aging stars. If Price and Eovaldi start 2020 poorly, we'll have lost any chance at some salary relief via trades. I'm hopeful, we'll go back to spending large after the reset, but that might not be enough, if Price and Eovaldi (or even Sale) become total dead weight like Pablo & HRam became.

 

[moonslav59]

While I agree, it isn't what he says or doesn't say that makes me think it isn't a people person so much as what he does. I am not criticizing Henry for being an "algorithm" that is just who he is.

 

And he has been quite successful at it. Who am I to criticize a guy who not only has built a team to win 4 World Series Champions but also a Championsip Soccer Team in the English Premier League. Those are truly impressive accomplishments.

 

I'm not saying Henry is ruthless, or that ruthlessness is a virtue, but it does seem to lead to success more than we might think or hope it would.

[Elktonnick]

I'm not saying Henry is ruthless, or that ruthlessness is a virtue, but it does seem to lead to success more than we might think or hope it would.

 

Not to be too psychological, I don't think ruthlessness enters into the equation with Henry. Ruthless is too emotional. Here is how Henry's approach was described to his business clients; "The firm's management methods make mechanical, non-discretionary trading decisions in response to systematic determinations of reversals in each market's direction, with the explicit intention of precluding not only human emotion, but also any subjective evaluation of factors outside of price behavior (such as the so-called fundamentals), to trigger each decision to be long or short each market, or not. "

 

That philosophy made him the fortune he used to buy his sports teams. I doubt if he would see any reason to change even if he could.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Elktonnick

[mvp 78]

Henry was the best thing that ever happened to the Sox. Is he or anybody perfect? No, but he was the number one reason we have 4 rings. He's hired some great people to do what needed to be done. He's fired (or let them walk) most of them,too, but in many ways, that's what was needed at the time.

 

(BTW, many of us hated the CC signing. I called him a "glorified platoon player whose contract would cripple us for years.")

 

"That's what was needed at the time."

 

I'm going to disagree with you. They should have kept Theo and Tito as they've both had great success elsewhere. Also, no reason to kick them on their way out the door.

[mvp 78]

There's no way to win though. Henry doesn't say much, but every little thing he says about the team or the payroll or the tax is like a huge bucket of chum tossed into a shark pool.

 

If he talked more it would only be worse.

 

For real.