Red Sox have fired GM Dave Dombrowski

[Bellhorn04]

Who was the ace of the World Series champion that season?

 

The Sox tried the "groundball pitcher" approach, with guys like Porcello, Miley, and Masterson all having history if inducing lots of groundballs. And Sandoval actually had a solid history as a defensive 3B, giving them what should have been a good defensive infield. There was a strategy in place here. They even moved their worst defensive infielder to the outfield, possibly hoping the high groundball totals would mask his deficiencies.

 

They were not helped by a lot of people having flat out bad seasons, highlighted by Masterson, who was roughly a 4 fWAR pitcher for the Guardians, but a negative fWAR pitcher upon returning to Boston despite still only being 30 years old. And also by Sandoval and Ramirez, who at times looked like neither had ever played baseball before...

 

And don't forget, the Sox had some sort of moratorium on giving out big contracts to pitchers over 30. That's a deathnail on the free agent market, where the overwhelming bulk of pitchers are at least 30 years old...

 

Masterson was coming off a horrible season. His numbers with Cleveland were very erratic. That whole rotation was a crapshoot. The results made it look like a bad idea.

[Bellhorn04]

But that doesn't mean he wanted to do so at the expense of Cherington.

 

If it was some sort of misunderstanding, you'd think Henry would have made more of an effort to keep Ben around.

[notin]

If it was some sort of misunderstanding, you'd think Henry would have made more of an effort to keep Ben around.

 

Maybe he did?

[notin]

Masterson was coming off a horrible season. His numbers with Cleveland were very erratic. That whole rotation was a crapshoot. The results made it look like a bad idea.

 

The 2015 Sox starting pitching was 13th in fWAR and 11th in FIP that year. In both cases, they were ranked ahead of the World Series champion Royals.

 

The 2015 Sox bullpen ranked 30th in fWAR and 30th in FIP.

 

 

I'm not so sure the starting pitching was the actual problem. What you're doing (and many fans do) is judging against preconceived notions of what a starting rotation should look like, and making that the cause of the team's failures. "They didn't have an ace" was not the problem. The problem was, they didn't have a bullpen.

 

Now there is some organic relationship here, in that the bullpen might have been better had the rotation eased some of the burden. But ultimately, they were the weak link and at best, the rotation exposed them more. Of course, the Sox bullpen ranked 19th in IP so maybe the issue of overusage was not the biggest factor in the root cause here either...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Masterson was coming off a horrible season. His numbers with Cleveland were very erratic. That whole rotation was a crapshoot. The results made it look like a bad idea.

 

Looking at that rotation -- and what the Sox thought would be acceptable -- is why they can't just add another mediocre starter or two this winter: Houck kind of has Masterson (when he came up) stuff and promise, Pivetta has unrefined potential like Kelly did, Perez literally replaced Porcello, and Eovaldi can look as much like an injured All-Star as Buch...

 

So who will be next year's Wade Miley? Will adding a Miley type really round out this rotation -- and will fans be satisfied with that?

[notin]

Looking at that rotation -- and what the Sox thought would be acceptable -- is why they can't just add another mediocre starter or two this winter: Houck kind of has Masterson (when he came up) stuff and promise, Pivetta has unrefined potential like Kelly did, Perez literally replaced Porcello, and Eovaldi can look as much like an injured All-Star as Buch...

 

So who will be next year's Wade Miley? Will adding a Miley type really round out this rotation -- and will fans be satisfied with that?

 

Again, the 2015 rotation really might not have been the big problem people say it is. In that respect, Dombrowski's early trades to acquire Kimbrel, Thornburg and Carson Smith were actually smart ideas in hindsight, despite two of them flaming out catastrophically. I still think Kimbrel was an overpay, but at least he was addressing the biggest need, despite many not recognizing it as such. (Whether or not closer itself was the biggest need from the 2015 team that had Koji Uehara, who was coming off a very good year, is another matter.)

[mvp 78]

Masterson was coming off a horrible season. His numbers with Cleveland were very erratic. That whole rotation was a crapshoot. The results made it look like a bad idea.

 

I think there was a large amount of skepticism at the time.

[mvp 78]

Here's what I wrote before the season:

 

Mine:

 

Mookie Betts won't win ROY

Pedroia will go on the disabled list after fighting through an injury for most of the year

Miley and Porcello will exceed expectations

Napoli's numbers will be closer to 2013 than 2014

Ramirez and Sandoval will have disappointing seasons

Xander improves at SS, but people generally still complain even when shown defensive metrics

Buchholzis traded midseason

Sox end season in third place with 86 wins

 

I was super wrong about Napoli. Betts wasn't even eligible for ROY. Buch wasn't traded. Miley and Porcello weren't great. Though I believe Porcello did pitch well down the stretch.

[mvp 78]

Bell, did yours come true in 2015?

 

My only prediction is that I will be drinking a lot of rum and Cherry Kool-Aid cocktails this year.

[moonslav59]

Masterson was coming off a horrible season. His numbers with Cleveland were very erratic. That whole rotation was a crapshoot. The results made it look like a bad idea.

 

I hated the Masterson signing as I do most rebuilding from the 4-5 slot attempts.

 

I will add that a lot of people hated or distrusted the 2013 roster on opening day.

[moonslav59]

I think this point is valid:

 

Had HRam and Porcello had their 2016 seasons in 2015, Ben would have been the GM starting 2016.

 

HRam

2015: .249 19 53 (.717 OPS)

2016: .286 30 111 (.866)

 

Porcello:

2015: 9-15 4.92

2016: 22-4 3.15 (Cy Young)

 

Blaming the GM for this seems trite, and I honestly think the point is true.

 

Look at these fWAR differentials:

 

2015 > 2016 Player

4.8>8.3 Betts

1.9>5.3 JBJ

2.9>4.9 Pedey

4.6>4.9 Bogey

2.9>4.5 Oritiz

-1.2>3.0 HRam

 

1.7>5.1 Porcello

-0.1>2.9 Wright (The 4th best pitcher fWAR by a Sox pitcher from 2015-2016!)

 

Sure, a few players had slightly better seasons in 2015 over 2016, but nothing close to this.

[notin]

I think this point is valid:

 

Had HRam and Porcello had their 2016 seasons in 2015, Ben would have been the GM starting 2016.

 

HRam

2015: .249 19 53 (.717 OPS)

2016: .286 30 111 (.866)

 

Porcello:

2015: 9-15 4.92

2016: 22-4 3.15 (Cy Young)

 

Blaming the GM for this seems trite, and I honestly think the point is true.

 

Look at these fWAR differentials:

 

2015 > 2016 Player

4.8>8.3 Betts

1.9>5.3 JBJ

2.9>4.9 Pedey

4.6>4.9 Bogey

2.9>4.5 Oritiz

-1.2>3.0 HRam

 

1.7>5.1 Porcello

-0.1>2.9 Wright (The 4th best pitcher fWAR by a Sox pitcher from 2015-2016!)

 

Sure, a few players had slightly better seasons in 2015 over 2016, but nothing close to this.

 

And be fair to Hanley.

 

He got off to an incredible start in 2015 where he hit 10 HRs and had a .999 OPS in April. Then he injured his shoulder, and posted a .654 OPS with 9 HRs the rest of the way. Yes, he hit 10 HRs in April and did not hit 20 that year.

 

But if Hanley doesn't hurt himself, while he probably doesn't have a .999 OPS with 10 Hrs every month, he does probably exceed his 2016 totals, possibly by a lot...

[Kimmi]

Are we all not saying the same thing? Screw the job titles. DD became head of day to day baseball operations, the job Ben had. I don't blame Ben for leaving.

 

My only point was I tend to think Henry is a good owner and I'll live with his decision making when it comes to hiring of his direct report. I'm assuming head of baseball operations has to answer to the ownership group.

 

I am very happy with Henry as an owner. Red Sox fans have it great. That said, I don't agree with all of his decisions. Ben deserved to have the chance to see his 5 year plan come to fruition.

[Kimmi]

I don't think that's true. Most people hold DD responsible for Price, Sale, and Eovaldi.

 

And the stuff about Lucchino being responsible for Sandoval and/or Hanley is all speculation.

 

I hold Dombrowski responsible for all of his moves. I don't think he had anyone strong arming him in any way.

 

Neither Theo nor Ben had the autonomy that Dombrowski did. Lucchino influenced many decisions. No, we don't know which decisions and to what extent, but I think it's widely accepted as fact that Lucchino 'butted in' on baseball ops often.

[Kimmi]

I blame Ed Asner and Carrot Top...

 

I blame Notin.

[Kimmi]

Series of events:

 

1. Lucchino states he's leaving the FO

2. Dombrowski is let go by the Tigers

3. Dombrowshi is hired by the Sox

 

I think it is reasonable to assume that Dombrowski came in to take over for Larry.

 

No MVP. Dombrowski was hired to be the GM, regardless of what his title was.

[mvp 78]

No MVP. Dombrowski was hired to be the GM, regardless of what his title was.

 

Disagree.

[Bellhorn04]

I think this point is valid:

 

Had HRam and Porcello had their 2016 seasons in 2015, Ben would have been the GM starting 2016.

 

HRam

2015: .249 19 53 (.717 OPS)

2016: .286 30 111 (.866)

 

Porcello:

2015: 9-15 4.92

2016: 22-4 3.15 (Cy Young)

 

Blaming the GM for this seems trite, and I honestly think the point is true.

 

The problem with this idea is that Porcello and HanRam's 2016 seasons were far better than the seasons that came after as well. So 2016 was the big outlier for them.

 

Randomness at its finest.

[a700hitter]

I have read that the Angels are expressing interest in Dombrowski.

[moonslav59]

I have read that the Angels are expressing interest in Dombrowski.

 

They have a coffee boy opening?

[a700hitter]

They have a coffee boy opening?

DD isn't a coffee boy. LOL!! Our old coffee boy, Benny the Boob is doing a bang up job locking down the #1 draft pick and beating out our current Blooming idiot.

[Kimmi]

I have read that the Angels are expressing interest in Dombrowski.

 

He will fit right in with Maddon. Two self-important twits.

[Kimmi]

DD isn't a coffee boy. LOL!! Our old coffee boy, Benny the Boob is doing a bang up job locking down the #1 draft pick and beating out our current Blooming idiot.

 

Right. Do you expect Cherington to turn the team around in less than a year?

 

Look no further than the your own team and the Blue Jays to see how good a job Cherington does in building a team from the farm system up.

[notin]

DD isn't a coffee boy. LOL!! Our old coffee boy, Benny the Boob is doing a bang up job locking down the #1 draft pick and beating out our current Blooming idiot.

 

Actually unemployed cofffee boy Dombrowski built this Sox team. The Sox payroll (unlike the Pirates) is about $180 mill, and Dombrowski brought on board about $170 mill of that...

[Bellhorn04]

Actually unemployed cofffee boy Dombrowski built this Sox team. The Sox payroll (unlike the Pirates) is about $180 mill, and Dombrowski brought on board about $170 mill of that...

 

It depends on how you define "brought on board". $20 million is Bogaerts. Who do we "blame" that on (as if it's a bad contract)?

 

This is all a bit silly, actually.

[Bellhorn04]

Put it this way: of all the big money on our payroll, the only money that's guaranteed to be dead money in 2021 is Price's 16 million and Pedroia's 13.75 million.

[a700hitter]

He will fit right in with Maddon. Two self-important twits.

i hate Maddon. He is an arrogant know it all, but DD never gave me that vibe. I would describe him as bland. He was okay with me, because when I saw that he sat in the stands at every single spring training game. He was very hands on in that regard observing his players. He also watched most road games from the stands. A self-important twit wouldn’t do that.

[a700hitter]

Actually unemployed cofffee boy Dombrowski built this Sox team. The Sox payroll (unlike the Pirates) is about $180 mill, and Dombrowski brought on board about $170 mill of that...

You are entitled to your opinion. For myself, if Benny Boy is at the helm of my team, I am pretty worried that my team will suck. When DD is in charge, I feel confident about winning the Division. DD will not remain unemployed for long. He missed this abbreviated season, but I think he will be back next season with some team. Benny will be cellar dwelling for a while. Think about how bad the Pirates are if they are worse than this Red Sox squad that has 2 starting pitchers. The Red Sox are unwatchable. Watching the Pirates must be like serving a prison sentence.

[cp176]

He will fit right in with Maddon. Two self-important twits.

 

I guess that I can understand your comment with respect to Maddon but with DD really? I never got the impression of self importance coming from him. I thought that he handled himself very professionally. A long way from a self-important twit.

[notin]

You are entitled to your opinion. For myself, if Benny Boy is at the helm of my team, I am pretty worried that my team will suck. When DD is in charge, I feel confident about winning the Division. DD will not remain unemployed for long. He missed this abbreviated season, but I think he will be back next season with some team. Benny will be cellar dwelling for a while. Think about how bad the Pirates are if they are worse than this Red Sox squad that has 2 starting pitchers. The Red Sox are unwatchable. Watching the Pirates must be like serving a prison sentence.

 

The thing is, with DD, you get some winning seasons but you also get a mess like the 2020 Red Sox and the Tigers the last few years. His MO is very simple - spends lots of money and trade away all tradable prospects to win today and then hope tomorrow never comes.

 

There may be a flaw in that strategy, one you described as “unwatchable “...